December 18, 2011 6:59 am at 6:59 am #601170calorieMember
what are the average shadchan rates given to a shadchan who only charges if you get engaged? i am an out-of-towner, not ny’erDecember 18, 2011 7:32 am at 7:32 am #1114752Flatbush DudeMember
What a shame that in 2011 shidduchim has become a BUSINESS. Yes, shadchanim are entitled to a fee, but it has gotten outrageous that there is now a going rate that needs to be raised in order for the shadchan to work harder for you, regardless of financial status.December 18, 2011 10:48 am at 10:48 am #1114753springbok007Participant
everything in life is negotiable, nothing is written in stone, even this.December 18, 2011 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #1114754akupermaParticipant
While no one is doing statistical analysis or gathering data in a systematic way, I believe the median for persons arranging a shidduch is an invitation to the wedding and maybe a small gift (the average is higher since a few people spending lots of money can raise an average). I’m very skeptical that “professionals” are close to a majority as opposed to friends, family and acquaintances.December 18, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1114755
I think its about a 1000 from each side.December 18, 2011 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1114756
If you are going to a shachan, then ask up front what their rates are. If someone you know is bringing the shidduch to you and they are NOT a professional shadchan then you can either ask them what they would like for shadchanus or ask your Rav what to give.
We have discussed this issue here in the past and it got very complicated. There were those who considered themselves “shadchanim” since they made many shidduchim but did not really put out a shingle and expected the “going rate” of a professional but did not “invoice” the baal simcha and was very upset when she did not get “paid”. Rightly so. Although it is the responsibility of the Choson & Kallah to pay the Shadchonim before going to the Chupah, a professional shadchan would have a written contract and therefore there would NOT be any misunderstandings. BTW, a Chosson Rebbe and a Kallah Teacher will usually discuss this and remind the C&K to make sure that the shadchan is paid up before the chupah.
If you are in doubt what to pay, you can ask your Kallah Teacher, since you would most likely be taking classes in your local neighborhood and the “going rate” would be whatever is right for that neighborhood. What is very important to remember is the Shadchan MUST get paid before the chupah. There are many inyanim brought down about fertility problems and shalom bayis issues if the Shadchan doesn’t get paid.
Whatever the rate is, I am sure that everyone here wishes you much hatzlocha in find your zivig and may you be zoche to pay the shadchan!December 18, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1114757
Based on inpuut numerous people it seems that 1000-1500 each side is standard “in town”. Out of town is a bit less. Probably the best way to find out your halachic obligation is to ask areound in your community and get a feel for the norm. YWCR is to broad to advise you in your particular instance.December 18, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1114758dash™Participant
Based on inpuut numerous people it seems that 1000-1500 each side is standard “in town”.
You forgot to mention that these rates are for when the girl is younger than 22.December 18, 2011 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1114759midwesternerParticipant
AZ and his organization hasn’t claimed baalus on the under 22 crowd . . . yet. They are trying to encourage only shidduchim for the older girls, to the point that the younger ones won’t get redt shidduchim, then they can grab those also as soon as they hit 22.December 19, 2011 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1114760
aries: Perhaps your aren’t familir with the typical style of how shadchanim operate. You may be uncomfortable with it, but the vast vast majority of shadchanim including the most prolific in the country have never told anyone any rate for a completed shidduch. People give them what they want.
That doesn’t change the halachic obligation for the parties to compensate the shadchan according to community norms. Perhaps you would like to instite a societal change whereby shadchanim stated up front what thier rates were, hwoever the present situation being what it is, the parties are obligated to compensate them accordingly. Furthermore, unless there is a structure, whereby non proffesional shadchanim get compensated different than proffesional shadchanim, the requirement would be to compensate non prossionals the same as proffesonals.
As for you comment re: the shadhan “must get paid before the chuppah”. I don’t believe that to be halachically correct. When one needs to pay the shadchan is at the time shadchanus is due-no a day earlier, and one shouldn’t pay a day later- when that date is will also depend on community norms. Some place the stlye is to pay after engagement and some places the stle is to pay after the wedding. Under the present system for shadchanus, the halachos of compensating shadchanim are part and parcel for the halachos of paying “kablonim” – workers who get paid for completing a job- and thus follow those guidlines.
Dash: To the best of my knowledge, (although i fully agree that the more difficult a shidduch or the older the parites in question, the more one should compensate the shadhcan) being that that is not stadard practice – and compnesation for workers commisioned or otherwise where no price has been set in advance is governed by societal norms – thus halacha doesn’t require it.December 19, 2011 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1114761
“vast vast majority of shadchanim including the most prolific in the country have never told anyone any rate for a completed shidduch.”
I am married b”h almost 20 years. When I was dating EVERY professional shadchan I spoke with and met quoted me their fee. Perhaps things have changed in 20 years.December 19, 2011 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1114762
look like it
(unless the definition of proffesional is one who quotes a fee). for the purposes of this discussion i am defining proffesional as one who devotes the vast majority of their waking hours to redding shidduchim.
Perhpas other people have other definiations of proffesional shadchanim.December 19, 2011 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1114763☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
aries, ask your Rav what to give
You should have left it right there; no need to say more.December 19, 2011 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1114764
No shadchan ever quoted me a fee. It would have been better if they had, because then I could have bargained.
Imagine if a shadchan tells me her fee. I would say, forget it. I’m only going out if its for free. And she would say yes, since she can just double the fee on the girls.
I would be happy. AZ would be happy. The CR would be sad.December 19, 2011 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1114765
PBA: shadchanim have fees for both genders. I know people, both male and female who have received calls in the last 30 days from shadchanim who to their credit told them my fee is “X”, if agree, will proceed shidduch and if not, I’ll be on my way. One shadchan had a fee of 15k, take it or leave it.December 19, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1114766
I think we are referring to different types of shadchanim.December 19, 2011 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1114767MacherishMember
The avg/norm is $1500 from each side.December 19, 2011 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1114768
AZ, since you choose to converse directly with me, lets go at it. Obviously there are generations that separate us, but what the heck, lets go. Yes the halacha is that the shadchan has to get paid before the Chuppah. Now AZ, FYI, that doesn’t mean literally that the shadchan meets you and your parents at the end of the isle or at the chuppah itself. What it does mean is this. No one should walk down to the chuppah if they have NOT paid the shadchan, it is a bad omen. It is THAT important to pay the shadchan that one should not even consider walking down to the chupah if the shadchan isn’t paid.
The Torah does not designate when that has to be, but it did show the importance of paying the shadchan and that a chupah should NOT take place if the shadchan was not paid. I hope we are clear on that and there is no misunderstanding about it.
The halachic obligations of paying the shadchan is satisfied if one gives the shadchan a dollar. That is considered paid. Ask your LOR. There is no halacha that states anything about “Community Norms”. Please show me where that is brought down.
As far as fees are concerned there are some very well known shadchanim in BP who I was made aware of when my daughter was dating 15 years ago who took $10,000. One of those shadchanim called ME when my sons were of age, he said to me “I heard you have boys, I have girls” I said no thank you. How did he hear? It didn’t matter, my point is this. Everyone knew what the professional shadchanim charged. There was no norm in MY community and there still isn’t. In my circles at the time we gave gifts. My friend told me that her friend set her up, and she gave her $1,000 and she heard years later that she bad mouthed her and said she could have afforded to give her much more since she got married at 40.
If you don’t want anyone badmouthing you the lesson we learn from this is to ask what they want. AZ, who exactly sets the NORM for the community? What is the NORM for BP? Is it different if you live above 13th avenue? Below? Is it different if you live in the 40’s, 50’s or 60’s? There are different economic scales even in BP. What is the community NORM for Flatbush? Is it the same in Midwood as in Madison? What about the Sefardi community, is it the same? Kensington? Marine Park? Ditmas Park? Is Brooklyn then considered one Community? What about Five Towns? Is Shadchanas norm different in Far Rockaway than Lawrence? Is Lawrence different than Cedarhurst? Is Five Towns the same as Queens? Is the East Coast the same as the West Coast?
Can you clarify? Or does it have more to do with what the parents can afford?December 19, 2011 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1114769
aries: You are mistaken. Halacha clearly, and specifically, states a shadchan must be paid the market rate for making a shidduch.December 19, 2011 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1114770
Shulchan Aruch disagrees with your points.
There is no difference between shadchanim and any other services provided. If you would like i will qoute you chapter and verse from the shuldchan aruch.
here’s a start (i just pulled this off a website called Businesshalacha.com and did a search using the word shadchanus)
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????? ???”? ??”? ??’ ?”? ?”? ??”? ?
??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?’ ?
??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?’ ????’ ?’ ?
Paying a dollar certainly does NOT fulfill the halchachic obligation any more that it would if a electircian came by to fix your light fixture and didn’t qoute a price. Does that depend on BP or FR. 13th ave or Flatbush. That is certainly a legitimate question that should be answered by a competent posek in these matters. It is not specifically related to shadchanus anymore than it is realted to any other service provider who didn’t make a clear agreement prior to providing the service.
Regarding paying before the chassuna or afterwards, with my deepest sympathies to “bad omens” they generally don’t consitute codified halacha. If one would like to do so, they by all means may. However unless that is the community custom it can not be enforced. If a shadchan would demand payment before the chassuna but no clear custom has been established, then the chosson/Kallah sides would be (to the best of my understnading) in their halachic right, for waiting until after the chassuna to pay.
This actually has potential ramifications for scenarios when a shidduch breaks off. Look in shulchan and commentators where this is disucssed.
This all being said, For what it’s worth I personally do think it is apporpriate to give the shadchan commesurate shadchanus shortly after the engagment if not at the actaul engagment party. Nothing to do with bad omens, but everything to do with the proper way to express ones deepest appreciation for bringing themsleves or their child to this wonderful stage in life.December 19, 2011 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1114772
“Regarding paying before the chassuna or afterwards, with my deepest sympathies to “bad omens” they generally don’t consitute codified halacha.”
Maybe your knowledge in learning is more profound than mine, but I have quite a few years on you when it comes to life experience and knowledge in this area. It is not “ibeegeebee’s or superstitions” that you would most likely wish to attribute this to. Ask your LOR. There have been many incidents where childless couples or couples with huge shalom bayis issues were asked by their Rabbonim if they paid their shadchan or if they hurt anyone in their past. These are two of the first questions that are asked. These are inyanim that are brought down. And no I don’t know where it is written. Again ask your LOR. Which by the way we asked and we were told that if a friend redt our shidduch paying $1 was sufficient shadchanus but of course you can always buy a gift. As long as payment was made you are yotzeh.
The inyan of making a shidduch is a mitzvah and it does not compare to some other kind of physical labor such as an electrician. Are you saying that the Shulchan Aruch says that? Does it say that it is an act of labor and a shadchan must be paid like any other laborer?
Who decides what is “fair” compensation. Does “fair” compensation depend on the time and effort involved? What does a “name dropper” deserve? Or better yet a 2 minute conversation with a “name dropper” who then considers herself the shadchan?
AZ, you seem to have appointed yourself the expert on the subject and the one with all the answers. So how much does the name dropper get? On the other hand, the friend that kept encouraging you to go out again and again, and listened and tried, and got involved, and did research for you, who didn’t come up with the name, but did everything else, is really NOT considered the shadchan because she didn’t drop the name, so she doesn’t get anything right, because she doesn’t have the official title, right? What does the Shulchan Oruch say about that? Is that posted on the Website? These things are so cut and dry, right? There are rules according to your community? What happens in your community? Who is considered the shadchan? The name dropper or the laborer?December 19, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1114773
A rebbi teaching your child Torah is also a mitzvah, yet you need to pay him. The halacha is to pay the going rate for a shadchan, rebbi, or gardener.December 19, 2011 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1114774
Btw, you only are obligated to pay the lowest end of the going rate.December 19, 2011 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1114775
1. you discussed halacha i answered halacha.Perhaps in your community that is the prevailing custom and as such that’s what the rabbi said, in which case it is correct, but it is NOT a standard for all communities. If one gives a electrician a gift have they fulfulled their obligation to pay? similarly with shadchanus. In a coomunity where one gives a gift to a electrician instead of paying a fee then one can do so, but that’s certainly NOT standard custom. (you make it sound like i’m saying some novel chiddush as if i make myself out to be some expert. I’m simply relating codified halacha.)
2. I am syaing that shulchan aruch and commentaries compare shadchanus to other service providers and the rules and regulations governing compensation are the same. I would think that your LOR is familiar with this.
2. Regarding omens: i am not discounting that reality, (in fact i would argue that giving a gift that doesn’t satisfy the shadchan’s fair and just expectations, does little to allevite the potential problem you aluded, irregardless of if the gift is given before or after the wedding.
3. please provide for the cr some evidence where local custom was to pay shadchabnus at or shortly after the weeding, the family did that, and they attributed problems down the line to the fact that the followed the local coustom (and halacha) and gave proper and appreciated shadchnaus at or after the chassuna.I dare say you will NOT be able to come up with such evidence.
4. regarding specific situations as to who is the shadchan the person who suggested the name, encouraged, was the go between etc. these are all fairly common halachic questions and for the most part the vast majority of situations have already been dealt with by poskim.
(The follwoing is my understanding of halacha but i may very well be incoorect, and with all such matters they should be presented to a competent authority in the field, (not necessarity any LOR, much like one wouldn’t ask a complicated medical halacha shayla to a LOR but to a expert in that field)
A general rule of thumb is that halacha considers there to be 3 parts for the shidduch.
a. suggesting the name in the manner that directly brings about intrest for the party to proceed with the shidduch. Irrelevant if it is the first person or 10th person to mention the name (maschil is the halachic term)
b. Being the go between from when both sides prvoide the yesses throught the dating process.
c. being the go between as it nears completion and facilitating closing the deal (gomer).
each one of these roles deserves 1/3 of the shadchanus. If standard shadchanus was 1500 from one side then role a is 500 role b 500 and role c is 500. if one person played two roles but not the third then they would receive 1000.
if two people together combined to play one of the roles, then the portion for that role is split. people who give good advice, information etc are not halachically entitlted to the compensation that is reserved for the shadchanim. Should one decide to give them some comepnesation it should NOT come out of the sum that is customrarirly given to the shadchan.
5. shadchanus in halacha is considered in the field of “sarsur” borkers, and the guidleines for compensation follow those of people who provide the servie such as brokers.
any question you have regarding shadcnim (effort involved, etc should be addressed to all forms of brokers). one more note: the simply idea that someone considers themselves a shadcan becasue they feel they deserve credit does not in any way have create any halachic obligation. halchic obligation depends on the actual role that was played and how halacha views that role, personal feelings aside.
This is my understanding for what it’s worth.
here is article that broaches the topic…
passfan: probably correct based on the priciple of hamotzi meichabeir alav harryah. However in such instances perhaps one should be concerned about someone having bad feelings (that may be somewhat justified) and thus running into the issues down the road that aries refers to.December 19, 2011 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1114776
AZ: Why would a shadchan have any bad feelings if he was paid within the going rate, even if it was on the low end (yet within) of that rate?December 19, 2011 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1114777pumperMember
“What about the Sefardi community, is it the same?”
It is well known that the Sefardi community does not pat Shadchanus at all. Not even the very frum ones- they just don’t!December 19, 2011 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #1114778
passfan: That’s a question you would need to ask a specific shadchan in a specirfic instantce, but these do occur. Feelings are hard to measure and understand but if someone has a tayna and it’s somewhat justified its not such a great thing.
Here’s one such example. Suppose you spent 3 years working very very hard for a specific single who didn’t have a easy time in shidduchim. Your were succesful and made their shidduch after putting in huge huge amount of effort. They compensate you at the low end of the shadchanus range (say 1,000 and the upper end is 1500 or whatever it might be) and then they go ahead and make a extremely lavish vort or wedding. I could see a shadchan being a bit hurt.
Spend freely on everything else but skimp on the shadchan, that might be hurtful… and perhaps the hurt would be somewhat justified
(for the record as i’ve said numerous times, i’m not a shadchan)December 20, 2011 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1114779
AZ, how would you explain the Sefardi take on paying a shadchan? You have clearly passed judgement that $1 is not sufficient payment (which obviously is a token payment just to be yotzeh), so how would you explain a community norm NOT paying the shadchun going against the Shulchan Aruch and all your other explanations???December 20, 2011 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1114780hello99Participant
I agree with AZ 100% on this issue. Not may others, however. He is presenting the Halacha in an accurate manner.December 20, 2011 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1114781
hello99-wow, that’s quite a approval!
aries: very simple, if the community minhag is NOT to pay, then there is (i believe) no obligaton to pay and that is perfectly in line with everything the shulchan aruch says. I would just make sure that one is 100% sure that such is the community minhag. You might do well to double check with a prominent posek in that community. This is the same as if a community had a widespread custom that plumbers/tutors etc do work for free. If that is the reality, that is the halahca. And unless the service provider clearly stated otherwise at the onset, the beneficiary would not be obligated to pay anything.
If there is a community that has the widespread custom to give $1 then that is the halachic obligation.
HOWEVER if a community has a widespread custom to give shadchanus, then one can NOT obsolve their halachic obligation by giving a token $1 and claim, i “gave” shadchanus. Just the same as one who hires a plumber where the going rate is 150 for a house call, they can’t say here’s a dollar, i’ve fullfulled my obligation to pay. They must research and see what the “going rate or range is, and compensate in such a fashion.December 20, 2011 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1114782
AZ: Isn’t it possible a communities minhag is different in how much they pay a professional shadchan vs. How much they pay a non-professional shadchan?
Also, what constitutes a kehila in Brooklyn regarding minhag? BP vs. Flatbush? Midwood vs. Marine Park? Chosid vs. Heimish vs. Litvak? And is it based on the shadchan’s community minhag or based on the choson’s community minhag?December 20, 2011 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1114783
passfan: these are all legitimate questions that need to be addressed to a competent halachic authority familiar with this specific area of halacha. Might i suggest not simply asking ones LOR. These are detailed choshen mishpat shaylos and need to be treated as such.
I think we all agree this is not the forum (and I am most definately NOT qualified) to answer such detailed questions.
All I would like to accomplish is to educate that your very valid questions are no different when relating to shadcnim as they would be to a private math tutor, a plumber, electrician or any service provider or broker who does a job without having a pre-arranged agreed upon fee.
These things happen every day (like a babysitter for example), and they need to presented to a qualified authority who is familiar in this area of halacha.December 21, 2011 1:16 am at 1:16 am #1114784
I would imagine the numbers used by NASI in their “game changer” are not arbitrary and were not pulled out of a hat. I would imagine they are based on a formula that considers among other things time and/or energy expended and a rate per hour (so to speak) and possibly also considers expenses incurred. If for example, on avg, 30% less time is spent by a shadchan on a 20 year old compared to a 22 year then the shadchanus for a 20 year old is 70% of the NASI rate for a 22 year old?December 21, 2011 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #1114785
Aries: have you changed your opinion on the issueDecember 3, 2015 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1114787HashemisreadingParticipant
are the numbers suggested here still accurate? $1,500 from each side is still suggested or did it go up?December 3, 2015 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1114788
1000 from each side. I don’t agree that it ever went up past that.December 3, 2015 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #1114789HashemisreadingParticipant
My daughter just got engaged and I paid the shadchan $1,000 per the YWNCR & Popa bar abba . Should I have paid more so that I have the shadchan “on my side” so he will want to make shidduchim for my next children? Is this necessary?October 31, 2021 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #2022923SomedayParticipant
WOctober 31, 2021 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #2022926SomedayParticipant
What amount for older zivug sheini (alman)?
I gave $2,000 each when marrying off my young daughters. Is it the same?
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