Avoiding Even The Appearance of Impropriety…

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  • #597131
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I was out at corporate training yesterday. During the lunch break, I went to a kosher deli and ordered a soup and sandwich to take back to the training center. When I got to the counter to pay for my meal, the cashier informed me that with my choice of meal, I get a free soda.

    “Great,” I said. “I’ll just go back and take a can on the way out.”

    After she packed up my lunch, I made my way back to the refrigerated display where the cans of soda were kept, took one, put it in my bag and left the store.

    After I left the store, it dawned on me that it might have appeared to some people that I stole a can of soda. Not being aware of my conversation with the cashier, all they saw was a guy going up to the fridge, taking a can, putting it in his bag and walking out.

    Now, there is definitely no question of theft, as I was entitled to the soda. But is there a possibility of a much more serious violation of creating a chillul HaShem. Mind you, I don’t know if anyone saw what I did, or took note of it, but the potential was certainly there.

    But what would have been the alternative? Explain to everyone as I left that I was allowed to take the soda? That would have been socially awkward (not to mention that there was no good reason to disturb others who were peacefully eating). So, what could I have done to avoid even the appearance of impropriety?

    The Wolf

    #777579
    canine
    Member

    What’s worse, social awkwardness or Chillul Hashem? You decide.

    #777580

    i agree with canine

    if you cheshboned that you might have created a Chillul Hashem you should have gone back and explained what happened and why you are explaining it.

    some might have thought you silly

    some might have been impressed,

    personally i wouldnt have gone back though, among a few reasons is that i might have been creating a chillul Hashem among those there that thought i was “tithing from straw”

    #777581
    asyyeger
    Participant

    I have been in similar situations, where you pay by the register and then take a drink later. What I do is hold it in my hand, walk past the register on my way out and say “I got my drink, thanks.”

    #777582

    I had a similar situation recently and I handled it similarly to the way asyyeger said. I had accidentally taken a cottage cheese with olives to the checkout, and as she was ringing it up, I noticed that it was the wrong one. (I had meant to buy one without olives.) I told the cashier and she said that I should just go back and take the one I wanted and she would meanwhile ring it up so I didn’t have to go through the line again. I went back, took the cheese, and on my way out, held it up to the cashier and said, “Thanks, I got it.” Better not to take chances of chillul Hashem.

    (That said, had I already left the store, I wouldn’t have gone back to explain. I think that would have made you look really strange.)

    #777583
    tzippi
    Member

    I’d do what asyyeger said, or catch someone’s attention, wave, etc.

    You might like Rabbi Reisman’s motzei Shabbos shiur of last week on just this subject.

    #777584
    Homeowner
    Member

    You went to a kosher deli filled, presumably with Jewish customers and you are worried a) of a chilul Hashem and b) that no one was dan l’kaf z’chus?

    #777585
    adorable
    Participant

    why couldnt you have taken the drink and then said something to the cashier to show that you are entitled to the soda? that way every hears that you are not stealing

    #777586
    klach
    Member

    better not to take the drink maybe

    #777587
    TheGoq
    Participant

    cottage cheese with olives? really?

    #777588
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    if you cheshboned that you might have created a Chillul Hashem you should have gone back

    It didn’t occur to me until I had made it all the way back to the training site. At that point, if I went back:

    a) I would have been late for the training

    b) I wouldn’t have the chance to eat at all

    c) There’s no saying that the same customers would still be there.

    The Wolf

    #777589
    adorable
    Participant

    the cottage cheese sounds interesting to me never seen that. I just got carried away with that detail and could not read the rest of the post

    #777590
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What I do is hold it in my hand, walk past the register on my way out and say “I got my drink, thanks.”

    Good idea. Thanks.

    The Wolf

    #777591

    I doubt a frum Jew in a frum restaurent would steal a $1 can of coke…

    #777592
    bpt
    Participant

    I don’t see it as a problem. Many fast food places (Schnitzi, pizza stores, ect) have a line for food, you progress to the register, and the fridge is off to the side, and self service.

    You had a bag in hand, so its stands to reason that you paid for what you ordered at the cashier, and I see no reason to suspect that you would steal the soda.

    Plus, you look honest, so that would nail it for me!

    #777593
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You went to a kosher deli filled, presumably with Jewish customers and you are worried a) of a chilul Hashem and b) that no one was dan l’kaf z’chus?

    I fail to see why you assume that everyone in the store was Jewish or even frum. I also fail to see why you think I have the right to rely on the fact that people will be dan l’kaf z’chus. I don’t believe I have the right to rely on it. It would be nice if people did it, but I can’t create a potential chillul HaShem and say “oh, people will be dan l’kaf z’chus.”

    The Wolf

    #777594
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wolf,

    I like asyyeger’s idea, but I highly doubt there’s a chillul Hashem since people saw you walking out with an obviously paid for meal, and you most likely didn’t have a guilty look on your face when you walked out.

    Homeowner,

    1) There is Chillul Hashem with Jews

    2) There is an inyan of maris ayin and “v’hiyisem nikiyim” despite the obligation to be dan l’kaf z’chus.

    #777595

    a) I would have been late for the training

    b) I wouldn’t have the chance to eat at all

    c) There’s no saying that the same customers would still be there

    it sounded from the way you wrote it that you had this thought right after leaving the store (though you didnt actually say that)

    but in any case if you really were concerned that you had caused a chillul Hashem then your reasons a and b should of little or no consideration

    and even reason c is of little consequence if you actually felt this was a potential chillul Hashem, as some or all might still have been there.

    #777596
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    it sounded from the way you wrote it that you had this thought right after leaving the store (though you didnt actually say that)

    Upon re-reading it, I can see why you would think that. My apologies on being unclear.

    and even reason c is of little consequence if you actually felt this was a potential chillul Hashem, as some or all might still have been there.

    Fair enough.

    However, I’m curious if that, too, would cause a chillul HaShem, as it may cause people to think “that guy’s just not normal. Is that what Jews do?”

    The Wolf

    #777597
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Plus, you look honest, so that would nail it for me!

    Do I know you?

    The Wolf

    #777598
    shlishi
    Member

    However, I’m curious if that, too, would cause a chillul HaShem, as it may cause people to think “that guy’s just not normal. Is that what Jews do?”

    Au contraire. They would say “Is that what Jews do? Wow, they are a Godly people!”

    #777599
    bpt
    Participant

    ” Do I know you? ”

    Sure… I’m the honest looking person.

    #777600
    m in Israel
    Member

    I’m with asyyeger on this one — if I have to go back and get something after I pay, that’s what I do, just to prevent any mis-impressions.

    Once it’s done with however, I don’t think you really have to worry, because as other posters said most likely people realized what happened. Often in stores with self-service drinks, individuals will take a drink after they pay.

    As for your other point, I have never heard that there is an issue of Chillul Hashem just because your actions seem “not normal” (assuming they are not objectively negative actions). Shabbos and Kashrus are “not normal”, too, but there is no Chillul Hashem in publicly doing it! Certainly tznius is not normal, but we don’t worry that when we walk in the streets in the summer goyim are thinking “are they normal to be dressing that way?” (And trust me, that’s exactly what they are thinking!) On the contrary, publicly performing miztvos is considered a Kiddush Hashem. I am not addressing whether you should have gone back (I think there is enough grounds to assume no Chillul Hashem was made), but just disagreeing with this argument that being viewed as strange would be in the category of Chillul Hashem.

    #777601
    always here
    Participant

    “I’m with asyyeger on this one — if I have to go back and get something after I pay, that’s what I do, just to prevent any mis-impressions.” … same here.

    #777602
    basket of radishes
    Participant

    Next time, Wolf, Just tape your receipt to your nose and announce on a loudspeaker that you paid for the coke. Nooone will question your diligence. Just your sanity.

    #777603
    always here
    Participant

    basket of radishes~ ROTFL!

    #777604
    DovidM
    Member

    I have had others ahead of me in line find out that a soft drink was included in the deal, leave the line, get the soda, and return to finish paying. It had not occurred to me that they were trying to avoid the appearance of having gotten something for nothing, since, if you are a regular customer, you would know that a soda comes with, and, if you aren’t, you have been to places with the same arrangement. I just thought they were oblivious to those behind them in line waiting to pay for their food. This, of course, probably reflects on me more than them.

    #777605
    blueprints
    Participant

    I wouldnt think anything of it

    Whos to say you haven’t paid for it whilst in the queue

    And collected it afterwards

    #777606
    oomis
    Participant

    Asyyeger gave a great answer and it is exactly what i do. Sometimes it is that I neglected to take the second jar in a two for one sale. So when I take the second jar, I go back to the checkout person and say, thanks, I found the second jar I was entitled to take.

    #777607
    s2021
    Member

    I dont make a whole scene out of going back to the cashier and announcing to him that I “got” it. (Besides, he could care less, and already forgot about me.) Maybe If I was a guy.. What I do is hold my thing out in plain view and stroll out slowly and confidently. If I was stealing I would grab it and run..

    #777608

    cottage cheese with olives? really?

    Really truly. It’s about as standard here as low-fat milk.

    #777610
    m in Israel
    Member

    “cottage cheese with olives”

    And cream cheese with olives and “gevina levana” with olives, too!

    (It is one of the shivas haminim after all. . .)

    #777612

    Why are we all playing into the attempt of someone who is far to the left side in hashkofo and in bein odom lemakoim to show off what a “tzaddik” he is in bein odom lechavyro? This is a total non-issue and just a way for someone to show off.

    What exactly is bein odom lachaveiro here? Wolf is concerned about chillul Hashem, not about hurting another person. It seems to me that this is bein odom lamakom.

    I really don’t get the feeling that Wolf is trying to show off. He seems like an honest person who is sincerely asking how he should have behaved in this situation. Just because his hashkofos are different from yours, it does not mean that everything he does has an ulterior motive.

    #777613
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    the attempt of someone who is far to the left side in hashkofo and in bein odom lemakoim to show off what a “tzaddik” he is in bein odom lechavyro

    That may be your suspicion, but it’s not based on anything. I think it’s unfair to assume, and certainly to post.

    Fear of chillul Hashem is, or at least should be, universal across the entire spectrum of frum society, and there’s no reason to assume lack of sincerity regardless of other hashkafos.

    #777614
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why are we all playing into the attempt of someone who is far to the left side in hashkofo and in bein odom lemakoim to show off what a “tzaddik” he is in bein odom lechavyro? This is a total non-issue and just a way for someone to show off.

    As others have already pointed out, there is no Bein Adam L’chavero side here. There is no doubt that I was allowed to take the soda. In taking the soda, I simply took what I was allowed to — in no way does that entail “showing off” in Bein Adam L’chaveiro.

    Please illustrate how the episode, as I related it in the OP, portrays me as a tzaddik in Bein Adam L’Chaveiro.

    I once double-paid for an item because I bought the kosher version (a special run with a simple sticker) in our community kosher store, slipped it into my coat pocket and unknowingly walked into the supermarket with it instead of checking it into the supermarket’s hall locker. When I saw treyf and kosher had the same UPC codes, I just took my kosher product out of my pocket and added it to my cart. (no chilul Hashem in having goods in my pocket here – people often use their shopping bags as carts and a pocket would just be seen as eccentric so long as I pay in the end). They rang it up because their system could not possibly know it was not their merchandise. Very easy to worry about appearances after the fact, and very different when you actually have to pay.

    I fail to see the point of this story. Are you asserting that I acted dishonestly by taking the soda? If not, then what was the point of this?

    And I would not have mentioned it had it not been for the shvitzer

    Please define “shvitzer.”

    (Yes, I know it means “one who sweats,” but that’s obviously not the meaning in context here.)

    who started this thread. Unlike the shvitzer who is a salaried employee,

    And if I am a salaried employee, so what? Does that somehow make me less honest? I fail to see how the conditions of my employment have any bearing on the discussion.

    I have to hustle for every penny I earn

    Is it your contention that, as a salaried employee, I don’t work hard for the money I earn?

    and as I’ve been in retail I know what it is to deal with shoplifting. Therefore, I’d rather pay for my own stuff twice than even be suspected of shoplifting – and this in a place where it is well known that no Jew even thinks of shoplifting

    I did not even think of shoplifting. Or is it your contention that I actually DID steal the soda?

    because we don’t have OTD here B”H.

    Where is this magical community where you have people who don’t commit sins? Or are you implying that I am OTD because I took the soda?

    As for this situation, if you did not know to wave the can and smile at the cashier, or otherwise acknowledge what you were doing so she could respond, then you need to learn social skills.

    Why? I told her as she was ringing up the purchase that I was going to take the soda. My problem isn’t with the cashier, it was with other customers at the site. The cashier knew what I was doing. As such, it was NOT obvious to me that I needed to “wave the can” at her. On the contrary, since she was busy with other customers, I did not want to bother or disturb her.

    In other words, my social skills are fine, thank you very much.

    I’ve had this happen to me at least 20 times in some way or another – exchanging goods because I took the wrong one, landing a bonus, having credit from an earlier purchase etc, etc, etc and that is just the common sense thing for you to do.

    Again, as stated above, the issue wasn’t the cashier… she and I knew the story. The problem is that the other patrons of the deli weren’t privy to the conversation.

    So, I ask you to answer the following questions:

    Is it your contention that I stole a can of soda? If not, what exactly is the Bein Adam L’chaveiro issue here that you contend I am using to portray myself as a tzaddik*.

    What, exactly, is a “shvitzer” in the context used by you?

    Is it your contention that, as a salaried employee, I don’t work hard for my salary? If not, then what, exactly did you mean by your statement of Unlike the shvitzer who is a salaried employee, I have to hustle for every penny I earn?

    What do the terms of my employment have to do with this situation at all that you even bring it up?

    Is it your contention that I lack social skills because I didn’t want to interrupt someone who was busy?

    Is it your contention that I was guilty of shoplifting a can of soda?

    Is it your contention that I should have paid for the soda even though it was included in the price of my order? Why?

    So, please, 600kilobear, answer me these questions. I await your answers.

    The Wolf

    * By the way, if you follow my posts closely enough, you will see that I just about never portray myself as a tzaddik on these boards. On the contrary, I usually portray myself in the other direction.

    #777615
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    On the contrary, I usually portray myself in the other direction.

    Usually? 😉

    #777616
    Feif Un
    Participant

    There’s something written on this, I believe in the Living the Parshah series. I don’t remember what parshah it’s from. It gives an example of a man who is shopping, and the express checkout line for 10 items or less was empty. The cashier offered to check him out. While he was doing so, another person came with just a few items, and had to wait.

    The funny thing was, I had the same thing just a few days later. When someone else came behind me, I turned, apologized, and explained what happened. I avoided even the appearance of doing something wrong.

    #777617
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    600kilobear,

    Now that I see that you’re back, please answer my questions above.

    Thanks,

    The Wolf

    #777619
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    who clearly likes to show off

    You don’t even know me and you’re saying I like to “show off??”

    to look good

    Did you even read what I wrote? I clearly admitted that I DID WRONG. If I was showing off, I would brag about how much tzedaka I give and the like.

    And, as I mentioned above, if you’ve read my posts here long enough, you’d know that I just about NEVER portray myself as a tzaddik. On the contrary, I just about always portray myself in the opposite light. I often remark that I am wicked, stupid, and a heretic who doesn’t have a chelek in Olam Habah. But according to your backwards logic, that’s making myself “look good???”

    a total non-issue.

    Obviously others in this thread disagree with you and felt that it *is* an issue (and that I handled it completely wrong).

    In the future, if you have a problem with my hashkafos, by all means, engage me in debate. But please don’t issue ad hominem attacks.

    The Wolf

    #777621
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    No one assumes anyone is doing something wrong, and if they do, especially in NY, they let you know.

    You’re wrong. I live in New York and I see people doing wrong things and I routinely don’t say anything.

    I do not debate “orthoskeptics.”

    What, exactly, is an “orthoskeptic?”

    And maybe in your twisted mind

    Why do you say that my mind is twisted? Because I honestly know who I am and am unafraid to face the reality of who I am?

    The Wolf

    #777624
    coke
    Member

    wolf- if you really think of yourself that way then why dont you change?

    #777625
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Argh!

    Doesn’t it annoy anyone else when half the conversation is deleted? I would also like to know what a Shvitzer is, so I googled it:

    From “The Forward”

    A shvitzer is a braggart, and the term is definitely derogatory, though not in the extreme. A shvitzer need not necessarily be a bad, unkind or even unlikable person. He does, however, have a need to boast of his own virtues, achievements and connections, which certainly can make him disagreeable company at times.

    #777626
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    That’s more or less the way 600KiloBear described it in his now-deleted posts.

    The Wolf

    #777627
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    wolf- if you really think of yourself that way then why dont you change?

    I believe that I am that way despite my best efforts to the contrary. I don’t try to be a heretic… I just am.

    The Wolf

    #777628
    Pac-Man
    Member

    I believe that I am that way despite my best efforts to the contrary.

    What kind of (unsuccessful) efforts do you expend to the contrary?

    #777629
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What kind of (unsuccessful) efforts do you expend to the contrary?

    I daven. I learn. I do mitzvos. I care about other people. I always work to improve myself.

    And yet, many frum Jews would consider me a heretic and a lousy human being anyway. So, who am I to argue with them?

    The Wolf

    #777630
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t try to be a heretic… I just am.

    And yet, many frum Jews would consider me a heretic and a lousy human being anyway.

    Yourself included?

    So, who am I to argue with them?

    Why do you choose to believe them that you’re an apikores; you’d be better off believing in their hashkafos so that you wouldn’t be one (since you anyhow think they’re correct for considering you an apikores).

    #777631
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I don’t try to be a heretic… I just am.

    And yet, many frum Jews would consider me a heretic and a lousy human being anyway.

    Yup, count me in too. I just don’t think most of them are Frum (AKA Yeraim as Rav Moshe put it, or following Halacha) so it all evens out in the end.

    But I do not have Lice!

    #777632
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yourself included?

    Apparently so.

    Why do you choose to believe them that you’re an apikores; you’d be better off believing in their hashkafos so that you wouldn’t be one (since you anyhow think they’re correct for considering you an apikores).

    Belief’s a funny thing. You can’t just believe something on order. You really have to be convinced of it to believe it.

    The Wolf

    #777633
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    But I do not have Lice!

    I have no idea what this is referring to.

    The Wolf

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