- This topic has 52 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
I found out that my ex-fiance left me for another guy. However, I found out through several people the following about the guy:
He comes from a broken home, with mental illness and divorce, and he himself has Bipolar I disorder. From what I’ve been told, people with this illness can often impulsively do things that involve no longer taking medications, violence, risky spending, etc.
I am not aware if the ex or her family understands the full implications of this.
Furthermore, a rav who knows him told me that this guy is “in pain,” “vulnerable and manipulative,” has “bad relationship ethics and an unhealthy attitude towards relationships, sex, and marriage,” and he said that “no one’s mother would want their daughter to be with this guy.”
Knowing this, what should I do? Especially that I am friends with the girl’s aunt and cousins, who have been very good to me materially and in other ways.
I feel that I have an achrayus to say something and not saying anything would entail an issur of Lo Saamod. But I am not a posek and I feel that I know halakhically what I need to do, but am unsure about what good eitza would be here.
Ask a shaila by a major posek. This is obvious. Why are you asking this here??
Regardless of what you know, and have confirmation from a Rav, you are still not the one with the competence to deliver the information. YOu can contact the family members you know, warn them that this individual has a history of mental illness, and suggest that they investigate this matter further to be sure this relationship should continue, or maybe not. Let them take this to their own advisors, hopefully with professional advice. You fulfill your obligation of ?? ???? while not attempting to pasken yourself. My opinion.
Contact your LOR asap!
I 2nd the above. Talk to a Rabbi who would be willing to tell you to share the info.
You don’t know if this info is true so why not give this Rav a way to contact the girl and let him worry about having achrayus.
Tell them that they should investigate because there are rumors……..
Verify this information, ask a rav or the shmiras halashon hotline, and have someone else tell (not you/ it would look like you have an ulterior motive and might not be received).
Do not breath a word without first consulting a posek and following his exact ruling.
Ask the rov who knows him if he has been in contact with the girl’s side about his condition. It could be that he has and they aren’t willing to listen.
Dont ask a shayla before you can present all the facts
rebdoniel- I agree with the previous posts. There are nebach too many cases where people with serious illnesses and medical conditions did not disclose their medical status to their spouse until it was revealed only AFTER they got married. Which of course presents a terrible situation for the healthy partner, and most likely ends up with unhealthy feelings i.e. being cheated and deceited).
Having said that, these rumors are extremely serious allegations, and you better make sure they are true. Because if they are false rumors, it could prove to be soooo embarrassing.
Hatzlacha!
1. She is your ex-fiancee, and is no longer part of your life.
2. Don’t manage other people’s lives. Manage your own.
3. Don’t say anything to anyone.
That’s funny: “Talk to a Rabbi who would be willing to tell you to share the info.”
Whatever you do, do not let them hear your name. I think Jay’s approach is great. The Rov who knows enough to tell you can tell them.
In the Zechus of doing the right thing, you should find your Bashert very soon. (Ahem.)
Why do I suspect this has more to do with your feeling towards her, rather than an objective lo tamod? pass on the info to someone else, and drop her from your life completely.
(of course with the proper halachik guidance)
@Old Man
Thumbs up to you!
If only the rest of the “heimeshe oilam” would abide by that dictum
@crisis,
Ironic, no really, moronic. I am sure you would not call yourself heimish and yet you are doing just what you say the “heimishe oilam’ shouldn’t do.
FYI, from the OP’s posts, it is pretty clear that he does not consider himself “heimish”.
But you had to make your silly little remark. How wonderful of you.
Oldman,
The question is what should someone do in a case where they are aware of such information, not specifically an ex.
The real question is why is RebDoniel so aware of all the particulars with his ex. That seems unhealthy and stalkerish. It seems almost like he is transposing.
I think it would be an absolutely horrible mistake not to follow up with someone about this.
Life with a person with serious issues can be pretty horrible, and sometimes nearly impossible to extricate oneself from. Do not do nothing. Only someone who’s never suffered would say that.
You, because of your history with her, should not be the one to get involved directly if there’s an issue. However, if you suspect a problem, I’d suggest letting someone you truly trust who is an objective Halachik authority decide on the next move. The one exception to this is you might need to consider where you’ve gotten this information from and how reliable it is when you speak with a rav and give him that information.
rebdoniel -“I found out that my ex-fiance left me for another guy. However, I found out through several people the following about the guy:
He comes from a broken home, with mental illness and divorce, and he himself has Bipolar I disorder. From what I’ve been told, people with this illness can often impulsively do things that involve no longer taking medications, violence, risky spending, etc.”
A lot about this post bothers me:
How did you come about this info? Did s/o offer it to you or did you go out to find stuff about him?
If it’s the latter -you went out of your way to hear and perhaps speak LH.
Second of all, you want to go now and tell it over to your ex, even if indirectly. I doubt this would be called Toieles because it’s very unlikely she will accept it from you. Even if you have s/o inbetween -they will have to say the source of the info.
Third of all, what makes you so sure she doesn’t know this already? Perhaps it’s your projection of “I’m a thousand times better than this guy”.
And finally, I don’t know if these things are even Chessronos.
Divorced parents are not usually a real problem. Bipolar people can live normal lives if they are under a Doc’s care and take their meds. So since you aren’t in the know exactly whether he is under care or not -how about Danning him Lecaf Zecus?
Unfortunately, your whole post smells of jealousy, revenge and/or wishful thinking. I would tread very carefully even if a Rov told you to go foward, which I really highly doubt would ever happen.
To let it go ahead without doing anything is the worst thing possible you can do to a fellow Yid, and in fact family. The issue was raised that perhaps they shouldn’t hear your name and you shouldn’t trust your ears, either.
That is why Jay’s advice is the perfect solution: go back to that Rov, tell him to get involved without mentioning your name, go home, go to sleep.
HaLeiVi: Should someone call up every girl this guy goes out with to make sure he can never get married?
Why this girl yes and others not?
Makes me wonder what could be wrong with you?
Such questions are for your rabbi, not to be plastered on a public forum.
I would not go your-self as you are obviously involved in the situation (nogaia-b’dovor) and might get ignored.
(Plus you should not be following up on her, that is akin to stalking and is 100% wrong.)
rebdoniel:
You said you would first ask a posek. Did you?
If not, how could you not?
iced, if you see someone fall to the groud would you refrain from helping them up since you won’t get to the other thousands of people currently on the ground?
The chofetz chaim speaks about such cases and what the halacha is
HaLeiVi: My question is whether you believe that, ideally, every girl who considers dating him should be forewarned. Or to put it another way, do you believe he should never get married?
We hope he will get married, but not by hiding it. If you know someone with such a problem please do not keep it a secret (from the appropriate parties). You rightfully feel sorry for him, but tying up an unsuspecting person and shattering her dreams and life, is not a better option. Let’s Daven that he should find his Bashert and have a full Yeshua.
I won’t judge his parents. They are desperate, and are blinded by their worry for their child. However, I don’t know how such people face their children-in-law, their victims.
I’m still having trouble with the fact that a Rov would give out that much information.
Having reread your post numerous times, please allow me to comment on some of your key statements:
>>From what I’ve been told, people with this illness can often impulsively do things that involve no longer taking medications, violence, risky spending, etc.
I am not aware if the ex or her family understands the full implications of this.<<
Not your job, or the job of anyone giving a shidduch reference to educate the other party as to the potential issues with the condition.
e.g. you can say the girl has cancer in remission, but you cant go into detail as to what that means. You can only give the facts, the person doing the inspection, they themselves need to research as to what those facts mean.
Nor is it your place to educate them as to whether or not they truly understand the “full implications of this”.
>>Furthermore, a rav who knows him told me that this guy is “in pain,” “vulnerable and manipulative,” has “bad relationship ethics and an unhealthy attitude towards relationships, sex, and marriage,” and he said that “no one’s mother would want their daughter to be with this guy.”<<
Then this guy should say something. If he has, then nothing you can do. If he hasn’t get him to say something.
What on earth are you going to say exactly? “I don’t know this guy but I hear he has major issues?” really? c’mon you have no proof, you know nothing 1st hand. Sounds like Loshon Hora (forget L’Toeles, you have no proof it is true, all you have is hearsay).
>>Knowing this, what should I do? Especially that I am friends with the girl’s aunt and cousins, who have been very good to me materially and in other ways.<<
This plays no role. You should do the same thing irregardless of whether you know the girl or not, her family or not. There arent 2 sets of Shulchan Aruchs, 1 for friends and 1 for strangers.
>>I feel that I have an achrayus to say something and not saying anything would entail an issur of Lo Saamod.<<
Sorry, the only people who have an achrayus is those who know, not those who have overheard. You can encourage those who know to share what they know with the necessary parties, but other than that, move on.
You are not fooling anyone here when you say “Ii am purely motivated by arevus and concern.” please dont fool yourself into thinking it either. You have a negiah, she hurt you, you are still hurting.
How do I know? The 1st line of your 1st post
>>I found out that my ex-fiance left me for another guy.<<
You didn’t say that she is about to marry someone else, your focus is on the “She Left You”. You very much feel hurt by her. You even said 5 months ago that it was a bad break up and you were looking to move on, seems like you haven’t (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chesed-opportunities#post-383641)
Don’t blame me, blame Freud.
HaLeiVi: So we hope he gets a yeshua and a shidduch. But is one conditional on the other? Suppose he doesn’t get a yeshua. Should we then hope he never gets married so that there is no suffering spouse?
HaLeiVi -“We hope he will get married, but not by hiding it.”
You’re lucky you don’t know the person’s name because if you did you were just Oiver LH and perhaps Motzay Shem Ra!
You just assumed the man was hiding some info -who says? The OP never claimed the the Kallah didn’t know, just asked if he should get involved. Unless he spoke to the Kallah -he has no way of knowing what she knows. And he said -he didn’t speak to her.
“If you know someone with such a problem please do not keep it a secret (from the appropriate parties). You rightfully feel sorry for him, but tying up an unsuspecting person and shattering her dreams and life, is not a better option. Let’s Daven that he should find his Bashert and have a full Yeshua.
I won’t judge his parents. They are desperate, and are blinded by their worry for their child. However, I don’t know how such people face their children-in-law, their victims.”
Again this is your projection. This is only correct if you know that they don’t know, eg. you’re the Shadchan. This Krum way of thinking probably has caused many people to Not get married. Did it ever occur to you perhaps people are willing to overlook certain things? Sometimes they are willing to overlook these things if they aren’t public knowledge. So let’s say the Kallah doesn’t mind marrying a guy with Bipolar, but she thinks that it’s hush-hush, but then every Tom, Dick and Harry are calling her and her family up saying -“Did you know that the Chosson has Bipolar” (Or any Chessron)?
I can see many a Kallah getting embarrassed and calling it off.
These people who did this just committed Rezicha -all in name of Shomayim!
rebdoniel -“This information was relayed to me by mutual acquaintances of myself and this guy, including a rov of his, who said everything in quotes.”
I agree with JM -then it’s this Rov’s job to make sure they know all the info. He should call the parents, but I’m sure they know the info already.
WHAT DOES IT HAVE TO DO WITH YOU?
So I really don’t believe you when you say -you mean only L’shem Shomayim. Let your dreams go -find someone else.
nishtdayngesheft -“Oldman, “The question is what should someone do in a case where they are aware of such information, not specifically an ex.”
He understood the question and responded properly. How many guys do I know from BMG that still aren’t married? Quite a few. Why? Because s/o saw a Chessoron and gave the guy a bad reputation.
Wake up world – noone is perfect – e/o has Chessoronos and they have the right to get married anyway. So we have people who were killed due to s/o Bashmutzing them. Acc. to Halacha when seeking info about a Shidduch you have to ask direct info from people who know the guy/gal personally. You’re not allowed to ask people in general. Because what happens often enough -you get a response of -“I heard so and so – is this”. Most of the time it isn’t true, but even if it is, it’s not usually the full picture. Remember you are playing with fire. Peoples’ lives are in your hands.
And I really pity those guys/gals who destroyed others from getting married. Who knows if they can even get into Olam Haboh, even if they are guys who learn all day.
I started with: We hope he will get married, but not by hiding it. What do you find wrong with that?
Health pointed out earlier that the boy’s situation doesn’t mean he can’t get married.
I am sure she thought this through much more thoroughly than the last time because no one wants to be hurt twice. I am certain she, who made the choice to marry the fellow, is aware of the rumors circulating about him. However, if you are so afraid that she may not have been introduced to this information, and you feel it’s so crucial that she know, call her Rav and have him speak to her. This is not your job! If this caring is truly altruistic for HER benefit, you can call her family’s rav and trust him to decide if he should pass the information forward.
Anyway, she will likely think you are a stalker and a creep if you approach her yourself.
Assuming that what you were told is not merely heresay or loshon hara, do you know for a fact that the girl is UNAWARE of his issues (if any)? You are, as was eloquently pointed out, VERY much nogaya badavar. As such, you may be suspected of having a hidden agenda (even if you do not). Let someone else who has investigated the facts of the matter, broach a word of caution to the parents. It may very well be the girl and her family know more about him than you think.
So what are u gonna do?
rebdoniel –
The more you post -the more you give yourself away.
First you say -“From what I’ve been told, people with this illness can often impulsively do things that involve no longer taking medications, violence, risky spending, etc.”
This is true mostly on people not under care, but then you admit-
“I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want my daughter getting involved with a guy on Lamictal with Bipolar I” – so the guy is under care.
And I did a search for Lamictal on the web and it is a very effective drug for Bipolar.
So it looks more & more that you just want to break your ex’s engagement and I don’t even know you.
If a pt. is under mental & medical care for mental illness they can lead relatively normal lives. So again what are you warning them about? Is there any Toieles with your warning?
“I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want my daughter getting involved with a guy on Lamictal with Bipolar I”
Why not? Are you bias against people with mental illness?
Did you ever hear of Pennina and Chana?
And there are non-bipolar people who do that stuff as well. And there are bipolar people who take their meds and you have no clue about their condition.
Forgive me for being blunt, but it seems to me that you are insulted that she called off your engagement, and even more so to choose to marry him over you. Get over it. Get some help.
The fact that you were able to find a rabbi and ask the question in a way to get the answer you want is no proof that you are right here. You are meddling in thing you have no business venturing and are quite frankly close to stalking. Get yourself some help.
Mr. Doniel -“And, there have been bipolar people to go off their meds, murder their children, rape their wives, deplete bank accounts, etc. Caution is most needed.”
Yes, there are people who are Bipolar and Psychotic, but most Psychotics that I know in the Frum community were never diagnosed with anything. As a matter of fact they had good reputations before they got married and after their marriage is when they started doing bad things to others, including their wives.
I think you’re biased against Mentally Ill people. The reality is the chance that those things you mentioned above occuring, esp. s/o under care is extremely small.
Perhaps this is about your jealousy and your ego -trying to show the world and this girl -that you’re much better than this guy and that she lost out?
One last point to prove my theory -why did your friends/Rabbis even tell you about this guy in the first place? There was absolutely No Toieles to tell you. If for some reason they had a good intention, they would have contacted her family directly. If they didn’t know how to, they could have just asked you how to contact them without giving you the reason why they had to!
Why is everyone still repeating what I said two days ago?
The Man wants attention -Dont give it to him.
There is a reason she didn’t want him and one of them was quiet obviously spite!
This should be the last post on this subject.
@ RebDoniel,
Can i kindly suggest you book your obviously hurting and self loathing persona a visit to your local psychiatrist, at the soonest available appointment?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.