September 1, 2010 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #592252September 1, 2010 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #694801missmeMember
You make some good points. (Be prepared for some rich hitmen commentators to attack here for infringing on their Swiss vacations, by making a comment asking for financial assistance.) But I’m sure the school is doing all it can to fund-raise.September 1, 2010 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #694802charliehallParticipant
“It’s not fair to parents who are straggling to pay daily bills, to put them under tremendous pressure to pay tuition, and if not their child can’t attend school. “
It’s not fair to the teachers and staff to be expected to work for free.September 1, 2010 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #694803charliehallParticipant
I realized after I hit “Send Post” that my comment is probably insensitive. I regret the error and retract the comment.September 1, 2010 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #694804chesednameParticipant
i love the tuition comments, the rich ppl should pay everyone’s tuition, and if they don’t want we have stupid comments about their cars and vacations.
why should they pay other ppl’s tuition?
and ppl that have no money blame the school for not making it easier on them to not pay.
it’s pretty simple, your child, your tuition problem!!!!
you can ask family members for help, get a job, beg on the street corner. just stop blaming the wealthy, and the school for your problem.
maybe the rich would be willing to help more if it was appreciated instead of demanded, and ppl felt it was owed to them.September 1, 2010 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #694805
I really understand how you feel. I signed contract this week, and I really have no idea from where I’ll have the money. But do you really think that the school doesn’t have a fundraiser? In this economy the school gets much less from fundraising. I understand why the school is putting pressure on everyone.
Anyways, I think here is the wrong place to complain. Some people will tell you that If you don’t move out from BP to a place where housing is cheaper then you value location over tuition, and such type of comments.September 1, 2010 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #694806
I agree! teachers and staff can’t work for free, they must get paid. but we got to find a solution for parent that really can’t afford to pay tuition. like have a tuition fund in school to help parents who make less then $50,000 a year.September 1, 2010 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #694807
I feel like I’m stuck in a time warp, as this issue was discussed last year as well.
BYBP (like most girls schools) is overstaffed. Let them try the boys school model (1 teacher for limude kodiesh, 2-3 for secular studies). And the buses for girls over 12 and those within 6 blocks of the school should be ended.
We all understand budgeting; that’s how you make ends meet on a limited budget. Till now, mosdos enjoyed a watershed of $$$. Those days are gone, and now its time to do some real math.September 1, 2010 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #694808mazal77Participant
Most schools are having the same problems and not just Bais Yaacov of Boro Park. Giving parents ultmatums to either pay or not come. They have no choice. Unfortunately, many people are having tremendous difficulties trying to make ends meet. But like Charlie Hall says the Teachers and staff can not work for free. The donors who used to give so generously are also having hard times and can not be relied on as in the past.September 1, 2010 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #694809Lomed Mkol AdamMember
Housewife: If you can’t afford paying your tuition, why don’t YOU personally raise funds for the school at least for the amount of your tuition cost, this way the school will get paid their dues.September 1, 2010 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #694811Ben TorahParticipant
housewife2: Sounds like you can’t afford it, but the school is making you pay to keep your child in. How are you paying it right now?September 1, 2010 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #694812
Go be that fundraiser!
To paraphrase: Ask not what your school can do for you, ask what can you do for the school.
says who: I apologize, but I only said the truth and tried to open your mind. You can do with it whatever you feel is best; I would never not accept a child due to a parents choices.
EDITEDSeptember 1, 2010 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #694813
I am the last person someone would call bitter. I just don’t like when people with more, judge people with less.
Your post was edited so maybe I don’t understand what your point really is.September 1, 2010 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #694815
I’m glad you are not upset.
I’m not judging anyone (I don’t think). I was the one who tried to explain why cleaning help may be needed by someone, even in dire straits.
I am tring to explain how Hashem gave us Bechira, and everyone has choices they need to make. In many scenarios with tuition (but not close to all, and maybe not even Rov), it is not by happenstance that one does not pay in full. Many times it is due to something more valuable on which the money is being spent. Many times it is due to the unwillingness to earn what is required. Many items fall in between, and you have to Cheshbon where your priorities are. To say “it can’t be done” is just not true, but to say “I choose not to do it because…” may be a good reason.
P.S. it was a minor edit.September 1, 2010 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #694816
And you are still refusing to make a very true statement in today’s economy, that Many full time hardworking people cannot afford to pay the full tuition. You’d rather blame them for all other “many’s” that you wrote in your previous comment, and MANY other times in the cr.September 1, 2010 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #694817
And you are still refusing to make a very true statement in today’s economy, that Many full time hardworking people cannot afford to pay the full tuition. You’d rather blame them for all other “many’s” that you wrote in your previous comment, and MANY other times in the cr.
As I said, “but not close to all, and maybe not even Rov”.
Not true.September 1, 2010 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #694818
The current economy is a factor, for sure. But even before the crisis, it was normal for only 40% of the parent body to pay full (from Yated Chinuch Roundtable), let alone the number of students.
Now of course, that is because tuition is way too high for anyone with a “normal” income + large family to pay. But you do choose to have a “normal” income (lets say high 5 figures) and choose to have a large family (Al Pi Halacha, no doubt).
There may be very good reasons for not paying in full, but it still does not solve (and even explains) the problem of the schools having no money.September 1, 2010 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #694819
The bottom line is, if you never straggeled you’ll never understand what it is to straggel. how should I fund raise go and knock on peoples doors?September 1, 2010 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #694820
I signed contract this week, and I really have no idea from where I’ll have the money.
Are you halachically allowed to sign a contract when you don’t have a way to commit to the terms?September 1, 2010 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #694821
how should I fund raise go and knock on peoples doors?
At least you are not saying “I can’t”, that is a powerful first step.
OK: We can 1: raise funds or 2: earn more or 3: spend less.
1: Raise funds: Organize an auction, sell raffle tickets. Sell cold water bottles in a traffic jam, or candy in the street. Bike-a-thon, swim-a-thon, run-athon. Get the students of the school involved! Explain why they should tell THEIR parents not to give to other tzedakos, and instead give to the school. And yes, you can knock on doors. (just a few ideas)
2: Earn more: Go back to school and become a nurse/OT/PT?stengrapher. Offer to babysit children when your husband is home (if you C”V don’t have one, then you are right to ask for communal funding, even though they might not be able to give it), or joint babysit your own children with others’. Sell on the internet (E-bay or other). Sell any silver/gold you may have in the house (they are at highs)(also just a few ideas).
3: Spend less: there is a website run by a frum woman called “pennyless parenting” (SJS has mentioned it). I have never been there (IIRC), but they probably have some ideas you can use. You can also cut back on meat expenses and buy more starches (just as a start).
Good luck.September 1, 2010 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #694822shtusimParticipant
When I was a child growing up in BP, my parents could not afford full tuition, BUT THEY PAID IT ALMOST ALL THE TIME, BEFORE VACATIONS, BEFORE NEW CLOTHES, BEFORE NICE CAR. They yeshiva had mothers coming to school to ‘serve lunch’. I still remember my mother coming once or twice a month to do it.
WHATS WRONG IF PARENTS HELP THE SCHOOL? get rid of some of the custodians and have them ‘sweep”. (Chas v’shalom, i wont ask you to clean toilets’) Your wife used to teach? Let her sub when a teacher is out.September 1, 2010 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #694824
“Are you halachically allowed to sign a contract when you don’t have a way to commit to the terms?”
I wouldn’t beleive that you would make such a comment. Your additude towards the less fortunate is…..September 1, 2010 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #694825
She has Bitachon that she will be able to pay (she is not planning on not paying). That is enough for a yeshiva/sale. For a loan, you would be required to have means to pay back (I think).
Besides, she probably has assets that can be used to collect, if the school/creditors really needed to (C”V) do so.
And even if not, the school should still accept her children.September 1, 2010 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #694826
Now I can call you GAVRA-AT-WORKSeptember 1, 2010 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #694827YehudaFMember
Hashem is the one that provides.
EDITEDSeptember 1, 2010 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #694828
says who, I am not allowed to ask a halachic question? I think its a fair statement.
The school needs money to run. They need to know they have that money coming in so that they can pay their teachers and their mortgage etc. If you don’t have a way to pay, isn’t that gneivah?
GAW, you might be right. I usually expect sources from you, not conjecture LOL.
And that has nothing to do with whether kids should be in school or not.September 1, 2010 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #694829
Wow, so innocent.
Btw, I will Iy”h pay every penny that i comitted myself as I always did in the past.September 1, 2010 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #694830MoqMember
I don’t believe it would be stealing; I suppose when people I don’t where it will come from – I mean, they could see their car, house, whatever. It may be a very good idea, but certainly we have all been in positions when we must obligate and then make it happen. For a surgery or the like. Or you could take out a bank loan. Or whatever.
Defaulting after the appointed time would be a different story. Like Gavra said – often, we just need to make it happen.
It’s sad though. Both sides of the coin are true. Schools gotta pay their teachers. But the fact of religious life is that you need an income in excess of 120k to made ends meet – I mean it that reasonable? That to send your childrent to a Frum school you need to be in the 90th income percentile?
The only people who get me mad are the people who don’t prioritze tuition – over bungalow colonies – or even summer camps – or worst, lexuses.
I hope that vouchers will take off and/or a kehilla fund. It’s a great idea, and I heard it’s taking root in chicago. My sympathies, but ultimately, when it’s between the teachers and the parents – I side with the teachers. They are not obligated to pay anyone elses tuition via getting their measly checks six months late (I look at the breaks that they get as part of their salary for community service).September 1, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #694831
If one has Nechasim, that one can pay back with them requires a source?
The better question is regarding lending without being able to pay back. I have a P’sak, I did not ask for the source. However…
It is Assur to take out a loan and not pay it back, and he is called a Rasha (Lov’e Rasha V’Lo Yeshalem).
Rambam Malve V’Loveh 1:4
? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???????, ???????? ??? ????? ??????, ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????, ?? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????. ????? ??–??? ???, ????? “???? ???, ??? ????” (?????? ??,??). ????? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????.
As such, if you have no intent to use the money to earn more money, rather to lose it (or pay off other chovos) and not pay back the original loan, it seems that would be Assur.September 1, 2010 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #694832
I really don’t even understand the original post. How can you say “It’s not fair to parents who are struggling to pay daily bills, to put them under tremendous pressure to pay tuition, and if not their child can’t attend school.” Whats not fair??
Do you not have to pay for any product or service?? I am not in any way making small of the struggle to earn a living and then to have to pay a large tuition bill. But to say it isnt fair?? Try telling the pizza store that its not fair that you should have to pay and otherwise you dont get any pizza. Etc etc.
BYBP is currently a few months behind in payroll. Teachers and administartive staff are basically working pro bono, hoping that the situation turns around one day.
And seriously people. What’s with all the bright ideas? Do you really think the school is not doing everything in its power to get out of this situation?? You dont think they have tried to get money from any donor that they can?? They have made millions of dollars worth of budget cuts, and still cant make a payroll. Many large pledges have never been paid resulting in a new building which should have raised millions in dedications, becoming a tremendous liability.
Noone wants to hear about children being turned away from school. Noone. But be honest with yourselves. How can a school function without tuition revenue??September 1, 2010 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #694833
Says who, if I posted that I made fresh brussel sprouts for dinner and someone asked “Are you allowed to use fresh brussel sprouts?” I wouldn’t be offended
I really don’t understand why that is offensive.
EDITEDSeptember 1, 2010 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #694834MoqMember
You are being such a guy. Poor OP is in pain; not a question of fair. Question of HELP. “????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???’.
Of course it’s fair. Ice cream cost money and so does school. But if a family didn’t have food to eat, and wished the grocer could continue to give food for free – well, sympathize!
And let us all send BY a nice check! Our schools are a bigger priority then any other tzeddaka! Their just not as dramatic. It’s cooler to sponsor chai lifeline then pay for toilet paper in bais yakov. But ultimately, OUR schools – OUR responsiblity – is aniyey ircha kodemim. That means the needs of your community – and there is not greater need for the khal then Bais Yakov – come first. So shell out rabbosia!
I’m in for $100 if four people will match me. I dare anyone to up the ante.
[Emphasis added by mod.]September 1, 2010 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #694835chanieMember
In response to the question “Are you halachically allowed to sign a contract when you don’t have a way to commit to the terms?”
Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky paskened 3 weeks ago at an Irgun Shiur in Flatbush when asked a similar question. NO!September 1, 2010 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #694836blinkyParticipant
“BYBP (like most girls schools) is overstaffed. Let them try the boys school model (1 teacher for limude kodiesh, 2-3 for secular studies). And the buses for girls over 12 and those within 6 blocks of the school should be ended.”
In response to BP Tottys comment, only 6th grade and up have more than one teacher for limudei kodesh and english studies, so I don’t think they are overstaffed. Also buses are eliminated for 6th grade (if I do remember correctly)
Also mods can you change the title of the thread. “Crises” is spelled wrong- it should be “crisis” (After all i went to BYBP- I know my spelling!!!)
[Done. – Mod]September 1, 2010 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #694837shanMember
A parent at my school actually hosted a package party in her house to raise money for tuition for a child – her child! Most people just knew that they were participating in an event to help a Jewish child attend yeshiva.September 1, 2010 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #694838
I do sympathize!! Just don’t write “Its not fair”. Write that “Its so hard”.
I’m in for $100 and I have no problem with it going towards toilet paper.September 1, 2010 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #694839blinkyParticipant
thanx modSeptember 1, 2010 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #694841
I’m in for $100, if it goes straight to a teacher.
Mod 80, if you (or YWN) would like to spearhead this, I’ll mail the check this week.September 1, 2010 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #694842September 1, 2010 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #694843
I was right. This WAS discussed last year. There was a thread that clocked almost 400 posts.
Here was one of mine. It dealt with the numbers that BYs own Rabbi Shapiro provided to Hamodia. As you can see, there is plenty of income; just plenty more overhead / expenses.
Tell me why a school needs staff / student ratio of 1:5
And 5townsmommy – living in the 5 towns, you cannot even imagine what we Brooklyn people go thru. Not all of us live on Beford and I. Tuition in your neighborhood is high? Rightfuly so.
(From last year’s thread)
this was the math I came up with over the weekend:
This is based on comments from R’ Shapiro’s interview in Hamodia’s weekend edition: Staff is about 400 people, figure about $3,000,000
Tution roll of aproximatly $8,000,000 (2000 students @ $4000)
That means there is still another 5 mil to work with. All that goes for chalk and copy paper? PLus, there was no mention about govt $ (which must surely be in the very high 6 digits). Sad fact is, no one is minding the store, becuase for SOOOO many years, there was more money coming in (a quick trip to XYZ gevir could yeild $50 grand, just for asking) so it was never a problem. Now, its a problem?
Sounds like someone is due for an audit. I’ll bet any business man or woman with 10 years experience could revamp BYOB and make it profitable. But that would require full disclosure on BY’s part… something mosdos will NEVER agree to.
And that is why the public is so sceptical and so complacent. Do they want help, or do they just want more money? We’d love to help. Money? Hmm. Not so fastSeptember 1, 2010 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #694844Shouldnt be hereMember
How dare you click and paste a Rambam in Loshon Hakodesh
proud to be a member of the CR!
Maybe YW should start a hebrew CR for people who “shouldn’t be here”…September 1, 2010 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #694845
BP Totty – why rightfully so?? Not every 5 Towns family is a 6 figure income earning one and that certainly doesn’t justify my having to pay $10,000+ tuition (YES YOU READ THAT RIGHT) for each child. I think that YOU are generalizing just a tad.
EDITEDSeptember 2, 2010 1:27 am at 1:27 am #694846lesschumrasParticipant
missme said “You make some good points. (Be prepared for some rich hitmen commentators to attack here for infringing on their Swiss vacations, by making a comment asking for financial assistance.) But I’m sure the school is doing all it can to fund-raise. “
I’m curious. On other threads you are extremely midakdek on pritzus, yet you have no problem here csting aspersions on “rich hitmen”.September 2, 2010 1:45 am at 1:45 am #694847Pashuteh YidMember
Basically, it is the RBSH’s achriyus in the end. If he wants klal yisroel to continue studying his Torah, he will have to give them the means to do so, or all the children will end up in public school C”V.
It is possible that if everybody would look out for the less fortunate, that there is enough money within the klal to support each child.
EDITEDSeptember 2, 2010 5:39 am at 5:39 am #6948482qwertyParticipant
I noticed that you wanted 4 people to match you but so far only 2 others came forward, thank you: “Why Do I Even Bother” and “BP Totty”.
I dont want this thread to be wasted so i’ll match funds for 2 other people. ($200)September 2, 2010 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #694849
I was right. This WAS discussed last year. There was a thread that clocked almost 400 posts.
IIRC, I argued that the school (BYOBP) SHOULD close. There are plenty of schools in BP that could pick up the slack. So what if the Hashkafa is not exactly the same as what you want? We are all on the same team here!
Of course I could be wrong (as I don’t live near BP), and there may be no room in any of the other schools (including Chassidish schools). But I doubt it.September 2, 2010 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #694850missmeMember
BYBP is humongous (10 classes per grade?) i doubt the other schools could pick up the slack, even cumulatively. and hashkafa does make a difference. not all are created equal.September 2, 2010 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #694851
hashkafa does make a difference. not all are created equal.
This may not be the case with BYOBP, but smaller schools are generally less efficient than larger ones and have contributed to spreading money too thin.
I would rather send my child to a yeshiva slightly left or right of where I am then send my child to public school with no frum kids. School hashkafa doesn’t have to match up exactly.September 2, 2010 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #694852
and hashkafa does make a difference. not all are created equal.
Don’t care which is equal. No one should have to pay/give tzedaka so that you can have the exact hashkafa that you want in the classroom.September 2, 2010 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #694853
Unfortunately alot of kids hardly pay any tuition and probably another 30-40% have pretty significant discounts. And oh, maybe they should also pay their tremendous mortgage of about 40,000 a month so they have a place to store all that chalk and copy paper…
I spoke to Rabbi Shapiro at the school and he informed me that the old payroll was over 7,000,000 a year. With all the cuts they had to put in place the new payroll is less than 6,000,000 a year. Tutition revenue should be bringing in between 6 and 7 million and instead it brings in less than 5 million. You can do all the math by yourself. But in my book that still leaves them way in the red…
Everyone thinks they can do a better job. Noone is manning the store. The school has just been running on auto-pilot for 70 years?? Amazingly, it managed to turn out some of the finest in our community while never missing a payroll until the economic crisis hit. Many more parents cant afford to pay, contributions tanked, and many large pledges never materialized.
I hope after you lose your bet, you still have the $100 to donate.
The store is being manned. Just noone is paying for the products.
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