Banning Bris Milah in the United States!

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  • #597267

    shlishi
    Member

    Rabbosai, The anti-semites in Galus America are attempting to ban Bris Milah in San Francisco and Santa Monica, Calif. Let us daven to the RBS”O that these evildoers are stopped dead in their tracks.

    The backers of this insidious attempt are trying to frame it as having nothing to do with Judaism, despite the known benefits of circumcision in medical science. Yet one of the primary figures pushing this publishes a comic featuring a “Monster Mohel” figure dressed in obvious Orthodox Jewish garb that the ADL has decried as “Grotesque Anti-Semitic Imagery”.

    #1032308

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I just saw this. It is shockingly anti-semitic.

    #1032309

    Anti-semitic, but constitutional.

    #1032310

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Anti-semitic, but constitutional.

    That won’t help these r’shoim in the next world.

    #1032311

    Health
    Participant

    Just like this Mushemad can post his cartoons -freedom of speech, we can perform Bris Milahs. I don’t think that if the law passes it will be upheld in Court because we have freedom of religion! This ain’t Europe. Hashem is watching these Europeans. I wouldn’t be surprised the reason that they are having an epidemic of E. Coli right now is because of their attack on Shechita! E. Coli has once again transformed -probably in the intestines of animals. How come this didn’t happen anywhere but Europe? Coincidence?

    I think not! Noone gets away with evil; sooner or later there is judgment and then punishment!

    #1032312

    Dovid S.
    Member

    How is it constitutional? Freedom of religion? I want to see Americans banning minarets… Yeah right. The goyim (and mosrim) have the idea that Jews are weak, and so can be oppressed. We need to get together and help repeal this gezeirah, or move to Israel.

    #1032313

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    this Mushemad

    I read that he’s a German.

    #1032314

    Health
    Participant

    DY – He could still be a Mushmead. I heard he was Jew.

    #1032315

    Health
    Participant

    Dovid S. – I think they were talking about the cartoon, not Bris Milah!

    #1032316

    @Dovid S.: Under the current test applied by the Supreme Court, since this law has the purpose of regulating health concerns, and the religious discrimination is only an effect of the law, this law would not violate the free exercise clause.

    #1032317

    Dovid S.
    Member

    Ah, might be. Thanks for the correction.

    #1032318

    shlishi
    Member

    The proposed ban has nothing to do with health concerns. A majority of boys in America are circumcised before they leave the hospital and a full 80% of American males are circumcised. Why are the vast majority of American males circumcised? For its health benefits. Yet, despite their denials, these “advocates” want to ban it for anti-semitic purposes, and the above mentioned cartoon is proof of that — considering Jews are a very small portion of circumcisions performed in the U.S., yet the extreme focus on the “Monster Mohel”.

    #1032319

    @shlishi: The proponents of the ban claim it has to do with health concerns. Also, the fact that 80% of all US males are circumcised will make it very to deny the law as a free exercise clause issue. I’d say this may be more of a substantive due process issue, health concerns aside.

    #1032320

    shlishi
    Member

    There are zero health benefits to not circumcising. There are several health benefits (in addition to STD issues) to circumcising. Any claim to any purported “health concerns” caused by circumcision is an obvious lie. The anti-semitic undertones are more than obvious.

    #1032321

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We talked about this a couple of weeks ago here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/attempt-to-ban-bris-milah-in-san-francisco

    Here is the post I wrote there:

    If anyone wants to read about the legal issues, I found an article which seems to go through the issues pretty well.

    See Sarah E. Waldeck, Using Male Circumcision to Understand Social Norms as Multipliers, 72 U. Cin. L. Rev. 455, 515 (2003)

    The general rule is that “the Free Exercise Clause permits a law that burdens religion as long as the law is neutral, generally applicable, and is not passed to ban behavior solely because of its religious motivation.” The leading case on this is Oregon v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990).

    However, the Court also said there in dicta that when another constitutional claim besides for free exercise is also implicated, then there is an even stricter level of review. That would likely apply here, because of the due process claim.

    Also, there might be an issue here since it would practically make it impossible to live as a Jew or Moslem, like Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510 (1925), which struck down a law prohibiting parochial schools. Apparently, this makes it much harder, although I am not sure how.

    This article concludes that a law requiring anesthesia would probably stand, but not a law banning bris altogether.

    #1032322

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Where’s Ben Temalion when we need him?

    #1032323

    haifagirl
    Participant

    Maybe this is a message that y’all should come here?

    #1032324

    Pac / Man
    Member

    Haifa: Israel is in galus too.

    #1032325

    charliehall
    Participant

    “There are zero health benefits to not circumcising. “

    Not true if metzitzah be peh is performed!

    #1032326

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Recent studies have indicated that circumcision rates in the US are dropping fast. I think its now around 50% of babies are circ’ed.

    Second, there are a few hundred babies who die each year due to complications with circumcisions. You think that’s minor?

    And the benefits to routine circumcision are extremely small, the AAP has put out a statement for over ten years now that routine circumcision isn’t recommended.

    Don’t pretend like this is all anti-semitism. I have (non-Jewish) friends who are really anti-circ’ing boys but don’t want to legislate it.

    Now, I don’t support this legislation at all. But I do want to remind those of you who support vandalism from frum people that you can’t selectively ask for laws to apply to you.

    #1032327

    charliehall
    Participant

    popa,

    The California State Constitution also contains a Free Exercise clause, and state courts are often more protective of individual rights than federal courts. All the current Justices of the Supreme Court of California were appointed by Republicans; does anyone know how they have ruled on past religious freedom issues?

    #1032328

    shlishi
    Member

    Second, there are a few hundred babies who die each year due to complications with circumcisions. You think that’s minor?

    That is certifiably false.

    And charlie, metzitzah b’peh is 100% safe and has been practiced for 4,000 years. (Aside from the fact that these rabid anti-semites want to ban Bris Milah completely, even without MBP).

    #1032329

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    charlie: I don’t know.

    SJS: I also didn’t think it was anti-semitic, until I saw the campaign literature. I am posting a link. Mods: Click on the link, I think you should put this one up. http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/06/03/proof-that-s-f-s-circumcision-ban-is-anti-semitic/

    #1032330

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    You’re right, I misquoted the number. Here is the abstract on the latest study:

    Baby boys can and do succumb as a result of having their foreskin removed. Circumcision-related mortality rates are not known with certainty; this study estimates the scale of this problem. This study finds that approximately 117 neonatal circumcision-related deaths (9.01/100,000) occur annually in the United States, about 1.3% of male neonatal deaths from all causes. Because infant circumcision is elective, all of these deaths are avoidable. This study also identifies reasons why accurate data on these deaths are not available, some of the obstacles to preventing these deaths, and some solutions to overcome them.

    So tell me, do you think 117 babies should die each year for an elective procedure? I’m not talking about frum Jewish kids – I’m talking about those who weren’t commanded to circumcise.

    And my Rabbis is against metzizah b’peh without a pipette. It is not 100% safe. Even those who do metzizah b’peh should realize that.

    #1032331

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    SJS:

    About metzitza bpeh, mohelim in my circles generally use a pipette. But they do it to protect themselves.

    I don’t really know if there is any danger to metzitza bpeh. All I know is we did it for thousands of years, and it was certainly what G-d wanted us to be doing then. Perhaps now there are more diseases, or whatever. But I am leery about thinking of it as an arcane uncivilized practice.

    #1032332

    shlishi
    Member

    SJS: Who produced that number? What statistical basis was it produced with? I find it completely capricious.

    #1032333

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This study finds that approximately 117 neonatal circumcision-related deaths (9.01/100,000) occur annually in the United States

    I would guess that none are due to bris milah; the mohelim are more machmir than the doctors.

    #1032334

    charliehall
    Participant

    “But I am leery about thinking of it as an arcane uncivilized practice.”

    I don’t call it arcane or uncivilized, just unsafe. The people who insist on doing it today are meikel on pikuach nefesh.

    #1032335

    charliehall
    Participant
    #1032336

    shlishi
    Member

    Charlie: What gives any credence to that number or author?

    #1032337

    shlishi
    Member

    MBP has been safely practiced for four thousand years.

    #1032338

    tryinghard
    Member

    Bris mila was banned in the past (not in the U.S.). Do they not know all the stories I know about our parents risking their life just to perform bris mila on their precious little babies? Why are they trying anyway. It’s a waste of time…

    #1032339

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This study also identifies reasons why accurate data on these deaths are not available

    So the whole thing isn’t much more than conjecture.

    The people who insist on doing it today are meikel on pikuach nefesh.

    The people who consider it (mbp) “an arcane uncivilized practice” skewed the results of the studies.

    #1032340

    Health
    Participant

    SJS -“And the benefits to routine circumcision are extremely small, the AAP has put out a statement for over ten years now that routine circumcision isn’t recommended.”

    This statement is absolutely false. You obviously got it from one of those anti-circumcision sites. While it’s true that the AAP doesn’t recommend pro or against, if you look at the medical articles you would see benefits outweigh the risks. Now I can understand why the AAP remains neutral because they don’t want to get involved in politics, but if you would add everything up from preventing diseases- you see the benefits outweigh the risks. There are articles that circumcision prevents HIV and cancer. In case you don’t know, these diseases have a high incidence of death.

    So it is an absolute lie that medically it’s better not to circumcize than yes. Even the ones from the Anti group who aren’t anti-semitic are probably against circumcision because of pain. But anyone claiming it’s not a good idea medically and therefore it should be banned, is either sadly misinformed or lying to themselves and everyone else too!

    #1032341

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    DY, there are many areas of the health related fields that are hard to pinpoint exact causes, but there are trends to see. There are plenty of children who die directly or indirectly due to their circumcision. That doesn’t include the botch jobs that cause other issues.

    Health,

    I’m not sure what AAP statement you read, but the abstract starts off with:

    Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.

    While I would agree that a mohel is usually a safer choice than a doctor for circumcision, its ridiculous to say that no babies have died from a mohel. A few years ago, there were a few babies who died (that I remember).

    I’m not advocating for passing this law. But its important to realize that many of the anti-circ supporters have a valid argument on their side. Obviously Jews aren’t going to stop circumcising no matter what.

    #1032342

    charliehall
    Participant

    Health,

    You are wrong about the AAP. Here is what they actually say:

    http://www.healthychildren.org/english/ages-stages/prenatal/decisions-to-make/pages/Circumcision.aspx

    If people like you continue to put out falsehoods, we will lose this one.

    #1032343

    charliehall
    Participant

    ‘The people who consider it (mbp) “an arcane uncivilized practice” skewed the results of the studies.’

    Wrong. MBP is associated with neonatal herpes; at least one child suffered brain damage as a result. The largest group of orthodox rabbis in America have urged that it no longer be done.

    If people like you continue to put out false information, we will lose this one.

    #1032344

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The largest group of orthodox rabbis in America have urged that it no longer be done.

    Based on misleading information put out by (one of) their leader(s).

    #1032345

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Charlie,

    That was an unproven allegation by a less than honorable person with an ax to grind and no ne’emanus. He has been known to spread falsehoods regarding metzizah b’peh in the past. (Besides a number of other falsehoods as well).

    But like I saw a poster comment on another site regarding this issue. The weather in SF is nicer than New York. And therefore there is nothing wrong with them trying to outlaw milah.

    Your comment about the dangers of mila should really specify that the most complications come from those who use the a clamp when doing mila. It is a known contributor of complications including amputation. Besides for causing significant additional pain to the baby.

    There many less complicataions from mohalim doing metzizah b’peh than there are with mohalim using clamps.

    #1032346

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Charlie says: ” The people who insist on doing it today are meikel on pikuach nefesh. “

    Of course Charlie knows better than the real poskim including R Moshe Feinstein.

    I dont know of a real posek who concurs with your view.

    #1032347

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    So don’t do it if you have herpes.

    #1032348

    shlishi
    Member

    SJS:

    The American Academy of Family Physicians states that death is rare, and cites an estimated death rate of 1 infant in 500,000 from circumcision:

    http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/clinical/clinicalrecs/guidelines/Circumcison.html

    #1032349

    shlishi
    Member

    And about 4 million babies are born in the U.S. a year. 2 million are boys. 50% (1 million) are circumcised. So that equates to TWO deaths in the U.S. per year. (And the deaths are generally from the ANESTHESIA not the circumcision.)

    #1032350

    I find it very disturbing, R”L, that [here] in NY they are fighting to accept S’dom-like same-gender marriages, where there they are fighting a long followed practice. The hypocrasy just shows that Ein Lanu Al Mi Li’Hishaein, ela AVINU SHEBASHAMAYIM!

    #1032351

    Health
    Participant

    SJSinNYC & charlie – You obviously didn’t read my post. The AAP doesn’t recommend one way or another. If you look at other scientific articles and add up all the health benefits it looks like the benefits outweigh the risks. So to present as an argument that the risks outweigh the benefits is absolutely FALSE!

    “If people like you continue to put out falsehoods, we will lose this one.”

    The only one putting out falsehoods is you! As a matter of fact, I saw today (when looking it up) an article in Pediatrics (from the AAP) about the health benefits regarding cancer because of circumcision. The authors then questioned why the AAP didn’t take into consideration the diseases that circumcision prevents when they came up with their policy on circumcision. They don’t give an answer. But I’ll tell you the reason because it’s not PC to argue with the “progressives” who are against circumcision!

    #1032352

    Health
    Participant

    KIsh Echad BLev Echad – You hit the nail on the head; Americans are becoming more & more like S’dom! They lie and say that the risks of Mila outweigh the benefits, in order to discredit religion. The same with marriage to all genders, another way to discredit religion.

    #1032353

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Shlishi, the rate posted in that link is from 1982. I would trust a more recent study at this moment in time.

    Health, not recommending routing circumcision is part of their statement. Although, I have learned not to really debate with you because you try to twist everything without making sense, so I’ll let the AAP statement stand.

    Again, this doesn’t really have anything to do with religion. There are many people in the US who circumcise their children who are not religious at all. Many people are anti-circumcision because they don’t believe in removing body parts just because. The data doesn’t really warrant it.

    The people I know aren’t for legislating against it, but rather getting information out there.

    #1032354

    Pac-Man
    Member

    SJS:

    The link you posted admits openly to using conjecture. I displayed an actual doctors study.

    #1032355

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Where’d the AMA link go? I can’t imagine there’s anything wrong with a medical association study.

    #1032356

    hello99
    Member

    sjs: “not recommending” is very different than “recommending against”; it is neutral.

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