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1. Iggros Moshe, OH, 4:36
A Bas Mitzvah Celebration in the Synagogue.
2. Iggros Moshe, OH, 1:104
In the matter of a Bas Mitzvah.
Regarding those who want to make a ceremony and celebration for the girls when they become bas mitzvah. Behold, one should not do this in a synagogue, regardless, even at night, because the synagogue is not a place to do optional, non-mitzvah matters, even if it was constructed with a stipulation. And this ceremony of the bas mitzvah is certainly only an optional matter and it is a matter of nonsense and there is no basis to allow it to be done in the synagogue. Certainly this is even more so since the source of this practice comes from the Reform and Conservative. Only if the father wants to make a celebration in his house is he allowed. But there is no basis to consider this a mitzvah matter or the meal a mitzvah meal, for it is nothing more than a birthday celebration.
3. Iggros Moshe, OH, 2:96
Regarding your comments on my responsum regarding the bas
mitzvah meal.
How we all wish we could abolish many of the waste is Klal Yisroel (not only public Bas Mitzvas, but other items as well such as Vorts, Large Weddings & Bar Mitzvas, Buying married children apartments, etc., which our Gedolim have talked against).
Alas, when one has the money to go ahead, everyone else feels the need to follow.
But Reb Moshe is condemning Bas Mitzvah ceremonies as being nonsense, a non-mitzvah, and stemming from the practices of the Reform and Conservative…
Assuming so right is “talking to me”:
And are Vorts, large weddings, buying children apartments, etc. any different? They all stem from the same materialism (which we get from the Goyish culture around us) that all Torah Yidden should refrain from having.
The Gedolim have spoken against this ostentatious behavior. I don’t see how anyone who claims to “follow the Gedolim” can be for any of these items, including large Bas (or Bar) Mitzvos.
Yet Reb Moshe above does make a distinction between a Bar Mitzavah, which he refers to as coming from a mitzvah, and a Bas Mitzvah, which he calls a non-mitzvah and refers to as nonsense.
We have exaggerated many things over the years. Forty years ago no one made fancy sheva brochos either. The family had a meal and then they made sure to have 10 men for benching. If necessary guests were invited for dessert. In addition it was unheard of to spend $5 to $10 thousand on an aufruf.
Max Well – This is quite well known, and no chidush to me or my faamily. We’ve had 1 bar mitzvah, and 5 bat mitzvahs, and two weddings. When we made a cerimony for our girls, it was done at home with immediate family.
aries2756:
You are right. Our focus on materialism has to be lessened. So many Yiddin out there need Tzedaka for things like treatments, tuition payments, and Job placement, when our dollars go towards “tzedaka” that ends up paying for others to have Lavish weddings and buy apartments for their newlyweds.
Rabboisai, WHERE ARE OUR PRIORITIES!
EDITED
What is the point the thread is trying to bring out? Overspending on simchos? (if yes, why the emphasis on bat mitzvahs). Making a Bat Mitzvah in general (when the teshuva quoted implies there is nothing signifigant)? Spending on frivolous things in general(with the implication that a Bar Mitzvah party is something frivolous and it is used as an illustration).
when our dollars go towards “tzedaka” that ends up paying for others to have Lavish weddings
I don’t mean to defend gross overspending and lavishness, but you do realize that when a person overspends on a wedding (and uses goods and services obtained in the community), he ends up creating business opportunities for people in the community, right? It’s easy to say “forgo the photographer* at the wedding…” but then you’re just depriving the photographer of a job.
IOW, buying goods and services in the community — even when “overspending” on “lavish” items *reduces* the need for tzedaka and makes us better off financially.
The Wolf
* Please — don’t go on about my example about how people need photographs — if so, then put some other expense in there instead. And please don’t go one and state that I’m defending photographers because I am one. I’m strictly amateur and have never gotten paid a penny to take a single picture.
These days there is far too much “Bar” and not enough “Mitzvah” at most of these functions.
I have always been one to feel lavish spending on Mitzvahs is not correct. I still feel the answer that one can do what one wants since its ones own money is the wrong answer. one is merely a shliach for Hashem.
But wolf brings up an interesting point i havent considered. ill have to think about it.
APY, I would think the point is to educate the uneducated. And learning an Igros Moshe is worthwhile in its own right. Besides, how many of us knew beforehand there is a halachic problem making a Bas Mitzvah ceremony? How many of us knew the Reform initiated this foreign practice? Even putting the strict halachic issues aside, how many of us knew that the heilige Rav Moshe zt’l – the posek hador, called this practice “nonsense” and said its a “non-mitzvah”?
I, for one, learnt some new things today. I would also venture to say that most readers did not know this inyan beforehand. Considering many of us DO care what Rav Moshe paskened, who even knows how many countless people will now be saved from engaging in this reform nonsense?
Yasher Koach!
Of course the main event should not be ignored and of course Jewish photographers, musicians, caterers and florists deserve to make a parnasah as well. But there is such a thing as good taste and there is such a thing as “in your face”, over the top lavishness which in many cases is just plain uncalled for and frivolous. When it borders on the ridiculous, someone should reign them in and not encourage them. Who should that be? Well lets just say there are people who should simply decline the invitation to an event such as a bar mitzvah that is taken out of town, no really out of town where guests need to be flown to their destination, or the event takes place on a yacht.
These people would include the Rebbe and Rosh Yeshiva of the Bar Mitzva Bochur. The Rov of the parents Kehilah. The best friends of the parents making the simcha. The parents of the hosts and siblings, etc. The reason why they don’t is because they want to be treated to a vacation and they want to be included on the “in” list. The Rosh Yeshiva would never insult the Baal Simcha because he too does not wish to cause waves and lose funds for his yeshiva or favors for that matter.
When parents plan an over the top wedding, their Rov, the Chasson’s Rosh Yeshiva and other Rebbeim who are invited to the chassanah or expect to be invited to the chassanah should tell the parents at the time of the engagement that they wish the couple a sincere mazal tov but they have taken upon themselves that they do not attend weddings where the per person dollar amount spent is over $X. And the florist fees for x amount of people is over $…., or there are more than “x” members to the band. Of course they have to take into consideration what the going rates are in the various simcha halls in their communities and what a very nice wedding costs, so that they know how to cap it.
The family will then have to choose whether the guests are more important or impressing the guests are more important. The reason that the takonos don’t work is because people will say “I just don’t follow the takonos, or who are THEY to tell me what to do”. AND the guest show up anyway. One can’t say that you can’t spend money on a wedding because you should give it to tzedaka. That is not your business because you have no idea how much tzedaka the baal simcha actually does give and that has been the problem all along. Many of the baalei simchas who throw these lavish events, sponsor other simchas for the less fortunate.
However, when guests sit at a simcha and discuss the cost rather than the beautiful couple, and how much nachas and bracha you wish them, then there is a big problem. When the simcha becomes a circus and has nothing to do with the mitzva of being bar mitzvah, or being misameach chasan v’Kallah then whats the point? Do the parents really think the chassan or kallah would not have been satisfied with $30,000 less of flowers? Or $10,000 worth less of table linens or ice sculptures? Or maybe only a 7 piece band instead of 25?
EDITED
max well brings down three teshuvos from reb moshe. I am pretty sure there are at least four teshuvos on this matter of bat mitzvah and, if memory serves me right, reb moshe allows a bas mitzvah to be done in shul, even for the girl to speak in shul, although he does continue to claim that it has little purpose. I have no way right – lack of the relevant seforim- now to mention those other teshuvos but, if the moderator allows my comment to be printed, I’ll make the effort of looking up the other teshuvos.
Helpful. Could you poinpoint from where in any of the three theshuvos cited here you draw the following conclusion “Besides, how many of us knew beforehand there is a halachic problem making a Bas Mitzvah ceremony?”
I can see where he states that in a shul it should be forbidden, but a general halachic issue with making a bat mitzvah party? Where does he imply there is something wrong? In fact, he says to make it at home (my addition, like any other birthday party).
When simcha-related business owners strive to get the baal simcha to buy more and more features, so lavish simchas become the standard, and someone trying to spend within moderate means feels embarrassed because they cannot compete, then yes, I am willing to see them forfeit some measure of their business in order to lower the bar and not cause such pain in the klal.
apushatayid asked “Where does he imply there is something wrong?” (even if it is done outside a shul)
The answer is when Reb Moshe said…
“Therefore, you should distance this new thing of a bas mitzvah celebration, and not to encourage it”
“it is a matter of nonsense”
“the source of this practice comes from the Reform and Conservative”
“there is no basis to consider this a mitzvah matter”
“it is nothing more than a birthday celebration”
So clearly Reb Moshe was opposed to the entire idea, even if it wasn’t strictly prohibited to conduct in the privacy of ones home.
I asked a talmid of R’ Moshe what he believes his Rebbe holds. He replied.
1: Making Bat Mitzvah affair in a shul. Assur.
2: Making a Bat Mitzvah affair, anywhere. Not likely to increase ones yiras shamayim, why bother. Then again, he says the same about Bar Mitzvah affairs as well.
I cant say this is true of all, or even many, girls schools, but I know of one girls school in Brooklyn that does try to make a girls 12th birthday meangful and attempts to steer all celebrations of this birthday in a way that is likely to increase awareness of what it means to be a bat yisrael.
Why is the focus on Bat Mitzvahs when it is quite clear that R’ Moshe was not happy with Bar mitzvah celebrations too?
From the Internets:
a) In R. Yosef’s article/teshuva on this subject published in Shonoh
Beshonoh (tashmag, a Heichal Shelomoh pub) he cites a string of fellow
bas mitzvoh posikim approvers, including the Ben Eash Chai (Re’ay 17),
R. Mosfia (above), Yascil Avdi (Orach Chayim, 28), and the Siriday Aish
(siman 93), and Nitivei Am (siman 225).
b) He cites R. Moshe Feinstein’s negative opinion to specifically
disagree with it. In particular, he cannot understand why R. Moshe would
distinguish between the celebratory requirements of the boy and girl
based on the different levels of “hecair” or public recognition that is
associated with the entering into obligation (e.g. the boy’s public
participation in minyan, etc.) He asks how could R. Moshe make such a
differentiation without any established basis, when the clear
celebratory requirement is chal with the entering into the obligation,
equal for boy and girl, and not dependent on later form of
performance. He also cites the harmful effects of appearing to
“discriminate” and the Siriday Aish’s similar perspective.
Rav Moshe specifically distinguishes between a bar and bas mitzvah in the text of his teshuvas.
The earlier discussion of ostenacious simchas is interesting and makes good points, but is irrelevant to Rav Moshe’s psak, as Rav Moshe makes no distinction, for the purposes of his teshuvos regarding a bas mitzvah, whether the bas mitzvah ceremony is done on a shoestring budget or ostenaciously.
IOW, buying goods and services in the community — even when “overspending” on “lavish” items *reduces* the need for tzedaka and makes us better off financially.
Wolf:
But when Tzedaka is required to PAY for the overspending of others, because people feel they can’t make anything less, that goes way beyond the line.
I have no problem with the G’vir who gives Chomesh, pays full tuition and wants to make a nice, even somewhat “lavish” but not ostentatious/showy simcha.
The bigger problem is when the guy who doesn’t pay full tuition, and is not a big Baal Tzedoka, feels he also “needs” to make a “nicer” simcha (or support his children, or buy them an apartment) and needs to collect Tzedaka to do so. He can and SHOULD do with much less, if anything.
GAW, that’s a persons own problem and I really hope he doesn’t turn to tzedaka organizations.
Part of the tuition problem is that scholarship committees don’t look at whats causing the massive expenses, just that they are there.
SJS:
Yes it is that person’s problem, but when we have it happening on a massive scale throughout our community, when it is the NORM to go into debt to pay for your child’s wedding or Bar Mitzva, we have to take a step back and examine what are we doing wrong here?
Is it the education, the lack of Mistapek B’muat, the “Magia Li” generation?
Or are we telling ourselves that paying back a Chov (let alone on time) is no longer a mitzva (C’V). How can one be willing to go into debt to make a Bar (or Bas) Mitzva or wedding, or to pay for your child to buy an apartment, but then tell the Grocery or your children’s school “I just can’t pay this month”.
Where are our priorities? And where have we gone wrong?
But when Tzedaka is required to PAY for the overspending of others, because people feel they can’t make anything less, that goes way beyond the line.
You’re right. Going back, I see that I misread/misinterpreted your words. My apologies.
The Wolf
GAW, peoples priorities are screwed up.
When my sons turn 13, they will lain (if they can) and the we will sponsor a kiddush for the shul. V’ze hu – and that’s a large expense too! If we can afford it, we may do the laining in Israel.
People have to take their own personal responsibility. the community should not be funding it.
People are very wasteful nowadays – not just simchas. Also with electricity, food abundance/type, cars, jewelry etc.
Don’t get me wrong – I love jewelry. I love to travel. I love good food. But not at my neighbors expense.
SJS-
How about throwing in a fountain pen? Ah, those were the days…
What’s the modern equivalent of a fountain pen?
squeak
How about a savings bond ~ 25$ face?
Or you can give a Waterman.
GAW,
I have a $50 savings bond that is about to mature (30 year class EE, so it might not actually be worth $50 yet). Do you think that I am counting down the days until I can collect the face amount? Of course not, the face amount wouldn’t even buy me dinner at a nice restaurant today – though $25 would have, 30 years ago.
“Part of the tuition problem is that scholarship committees don’t look at whats causing the massive expenses, just that they are there.”
SJS, this comment really hit home! Some people buy/renovate homes they can barely afford, then they show the scholarship committees their mortgage/loan bills and pay minimal tuition. And the rest of us pay for their warped priorities.
BTW, I have the same plans for my sons’ Bar Mitzvah celebrations, BE”H!
squeak –
But is it worth more then the pen?
I have a bunch of bonds from my Bas Mitzvah. Eventually…
There you go 🙂
Bas Mitzva -> bonds -> pay for Kollel (if you want).
When we remodeled our kitchen (I don’t have a big kitchen, but this was a necessity as it was old and nausiating) we were trying to cut costs at every corner. We called our Rov if we really need a milchig stovestop or we can forego it.
My Rov said a gevaldige thing. He said if we put in new cabinets (not custom made, but cheapest of the cheapest)new sinks and new countertops we can spend the extra $250 for a separate milchig stovetop.
Same here. I’m not talking about bas mitzvas. I’m not talking about extra luxuries or extravagant affairs. I am talking about boys marking a major event in their lives, an event that marks their entrance into adulthood and their full responsibilty to follow the Torah laws.
If one doesn’t go on vacations and their entire lifestyle is totally moneypinching in all areas, I can understand them for only sponsoring a kiddush in shul. But if there is money for extracurricular activities (like music lessons,etc.), vacations, a nice house then I would think that only a kiddush in shul shows that one places more importance in other areas of their lives.
Not that I’m saying one should make extravagant affairs. I think a person’s entire lifestyle should be lived how they can afford it and those who live lavishly can’t necessarily afford it. But I think one should make a bar mitzvah (not bas mitzva)in the same bracket as how they live their lives so that the children can see that we are very serious about marking this milestone to the best of our ability.
Heh heh. Thinking of the things that would cause some people’s heads to explode.
Such as not only having a kiddush in shul for a Bas Mitzvah — but at the same time, she makes a siyum on a seder mishnayos. >:)
The Wolf
FWIW, we had a small bas mitzvah for our daughter in the basement of a shul (doubles as a party room). We invited some friends, had milchigs, some taped music and my daughter gave a d’var torah. Not a big fancy affair, but something meaningful to mark her passage into adulthood.
The Wolf
wolf what is that emoticon
if you look at it with the right side as the top looks like charlie chan
wolf what is that emoticon
Evil smile. (with the eyebrows pointed down). It’s used when one knows that one is being bad. 🙂
The Wolf
Such as not only having a kiddush in shul for a Bas Mitzvah — but at the same time, she makes a siyum on a seder mishnayos
Wicked! Does it then become a Seudas Mitzva?
Clearheaded, yet again we agree. The problem is how the bracket has been pushed from a Heymish Siyum with family in shul or home to a fully catered event with Sushi, a full shmorg & Viennese table.
Philosopher, I disagree.
What does a fancier meal mean? More money. It doesn’t mean more respectful. We should be focusing on the MITZVAH aspect (which is what I think R’ Moshe was talking about). What’s the mitzvah? Being part of a minyan, reading from the Torah etc.
I don’t think its wise to spend money on a one time affair. I think it makes more sense to invest in more lasting things – a nicer house that you use all the time, music lessons (that can help with parnassa!) etc is more worth while than a fancy meal.
squeak –
But is it worth more then the pen?
Probably. But honestly, who is going to appreciate getting an 30-year IOU for a pen as a gift? The pen itself was only appreciated because it was a status symbol of sorts.
I have a Viennese table at every siyyum that I make. My dining room table was made in Vienna.
I also have a Vietnamese table.
squeak:
You can redeem the bonds before 30 years. Look up the treasury bond website for more details.
Thanks. I know that I can redeem the bonds at any time. I just never got around to it. The high interest rates at the beginning made it easy to keep back then.
Squeak, Viennese tables are so outdated- they’re loaded with trans-fat, high fructose corn syrup, and empty calories.
When MY husband makes a siyum, we have a Sushi Bar (just without the sushi).
Rav Mattisyahu Salomon, Shlita, is recorded on tape saying that since the main mitzvah of a woman is tznius, her entry into adulthood should be marked with tznius. A big bash is in direct contrast.
pretty compelling reasoning even without knowing the source
Rav Mattisyahu Salomon, Shlita, is recorded on tape saying that since the main mitzvah of a woman is tznius, her entry into adulthood should be marked with tznius. A big bash is in direct contrast.
Everything should be done with Tznius. It already has a source, and is not new (but always helpful to be reminded).
Rashi Succah 49B, P’shat in the Gemorah there.
Rabbi Moshe wasn’t a baal machokes. You need to be aware these people asking are asking Rabbi Moshe and not people who do because the neighbors are doing it. This includes people from every neighborhood including, Har Nof, Lakewood, Monsey, etc.
These people have other problems they need to be bothered about to stop. In many such families you have children who think they are honoring their parents but in reality they are honoring them in the same way pork is kosher.
I have seen Charedi families where daughters are yelling at their fathers. Sons are asked by their mothers to take out the rubbish and refuse. Sons are asked to walk their sister somewhere and fight against their mother about it. After loosing the fight they walk their sister but refuse to walk next to their sister rather on the other side of the road! He feared people will see him and think he is dating. He was 17. His sister was 11. Yes many rishonim forbid bother and sisters touching from a very young age (e.g. the rambam, perush hamishnayos, sanhedrin iirc 7th perek). They never forbade calming a mother by making sure no harm comes to his younger sister.
These people have real issues. Celebrations that drag one away from holiness is not a problem for them because they are far from holiness.
My parents wanted to throw a large celebration for my bar mitzvah. I ask them calmly to minimize it to a modest kiddish in the shul on shabbos. They accepted. You know what it did for my yiras shamayim? I had the opportunity to think about not sinning before my bar mitzvah before I turned 13 instead of planning a celebration and getting involved in fighting. I believe had these event been any different I would have been a completely different person. It helped being able to look back at my bar mitzvah days whenever I was experiencing tough times.
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