July 18, 2011 5:15 am at 5:15 am #598033
so personally i consider my self to dress very tznius and dont plan on changing at all but lately ive seen alot of different people dressed in way different levels of tznius who all consider themselves frum and im sure are, but im just wondering what are the basic halachos of tznius just straight out without any chumras, because ive seen alot of people lately that i start to think “there not dressed tznius” just because my comunity dresses differently but im sure they are really dressing tznius they just come from a differnt comunity. so basically im just wondering what are the BASIC rules of tznius. THIS IS NOT SAYING ANYTHING NEGATIVE just wonderingJuly 18, 2011 6:11 am at 6:11 am #787044
see Chazon Ish (Tahoros)July 18, 2011 6:18 am at 6:18 am #787045
unfortunetly these days very frum ppl have distorted tzinius. Tzinius is a certain class. Its the way a princess would dress . that being said, mere requirements such as, cover your knees doesnt suffice. Yes cover your knees, but does tha tmean you should wear a skirt that has funky sequins all over and sweeps the floor as you walk? its a sensitivity. Our generation unfortunely lost that sensitivity to style. For example, style says wear straight skirts only otherwise ur weird. However, does that straight skirt cover your knees at all times? does it show ur every form and movement when you walk? etce etc. So no, there is not jst a list of requirements that anyone can give you.July 18, 2011 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #787046
The very basic halacha – knees, collorbone and neckline must be covered at all times, in all position (ppl, be normal with this and you know what I mean!!!)
I don’t remember if tightness is specified straight out but I would say that if painting your skin would cover it the same way – its too tight. There is a whole lot more until it is not tight, but you asked for basic halacha.July 18, 2011 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #787047
what are the BASIC rules of tznius
Each community has their own Rabbonim who Pasken for them. For eample, there are (valid & real) Rabbonim that Pasken that woman’s pants are not an issue (I think).
(PS. Joe will argue, but he is not so “basic”).July 18, 2011 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #787048
There is nothing wrong with very long skirts.July 18, 2011 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #787049
What is this based on?July 18, 2011 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #787050
mdd – would you say the same for very long skirts that attract attention and would make people look twice/turn their head. Is that also tzniusdik?July 18, 2011 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #787051
There is nothing wrong with very long skirts.
Really now?July 18, 2011 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #787052
Inspiredteen has got it right regarding sleeves, skirt length and necklines. However tznius is a way of life more than just dos and donts. The best sefer is probably without doubt Rabbi Falk shlita’s Oz Vehadar Levusha, which besides the halachos discusses many of the haskafic ideas behind tznius in dress and all areas of life.July 18, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #787054
Fix-it-up, YES! Tell me a good svora why it should be ossur. Someone started this chumra and pushed it, but there is no good reason for it.
On the ball, only if it has a 2-feet long tail draging on the ground, and it is not the minhag ha’mokom to have it. Still, it would be more tsniusdic than a just-bellow-the knee skirt.July 18, 2011 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #787055
And I’m not the only one, most American Roshei yeshivos & Rabbonim will agree.
Maybe that just shows how depraved America has gotten, that the Rabbonim in America have to teach lower levels of tznius then the rest of the world can handle.
This sefer can be found on virtually every Chareidi bookshelf in E”Y and from what I understand, it is found more often than not in the frum communities of England as well.July 18, 2011 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #787056
Fix-it-up, in fact, it is mehudar. It covers the legs completely (or almost so). A woman who wears it won’t have problems while sitting or getting into the car.July 18, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #787057
Rav Falks sefer seems to be accepted in the chassidishe world (emphasis on seems). In the litvishe world, not only is it not accepted, I know rabbonim (mine included) who have told people not to use it, even as reference.July 18, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #787058
I think his sefer is a good place to start but you are right it does have some “chumros” is there that are not basic halacha. I think the spirit of the law is just as important as the letter of the law if not more important and thats very hard to teach someone.July 18, 2011 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #787059
Interesting gavra – who is your RY?
I am surprised if it could be classified as bal tosif. Rabbi Falk is not adding mitzvos to the Torah nor adding details to a particular mitzva.
Whether you agree with him or not, he is just putting forward his interpretation of ‘Hatzea Leches’ and assessing in a practical way what modes of dress can cause improper thoughts and attract undue attention.
I would venture to say that to classify that as bal tosif is actually being ‘ Megaleh Ponim Batorah Shelo Kehalacha’ a common pitfall when exaggeratedly disagreeing with someone else’s views.July 18, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #787063
alive and wellParticipant
tzinus is very much depended on minhag hamokom so asking it over the internet is worthlessJuly 18, 2011 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #787067
oomis – our imahos wore nose-rings too – but that would now be untzniusdik as it is outlandish.
I think we can sum up and say Tznius is about 2 issues (that in essence are one)
1) Covering up those areas that are usually covered (in decent societies) some of which the Torah classifies as Ervah and/or cause improper thoughts. And covering them up in a non-provocative way.
2) Not attracting undue attention by by the way you act, talk or dress. This is much more subjective and depends on the minhag of the town and generation.
Any thoughts on that summary?July 18, 2011 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #787068
On the ball, why? They might look funny for contemporary people. But untsniusdic? You bring a proof from one shvere chumra to support another one.July 18, 2011 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #787070
There is a wonderful sefer used in many beis yaakov’s called Oz Vehadar Levusha authored by HaRav Eliyahu Falk shlit”a that addresses almost every situation in tznius. If you don’t have your high school copy of the sefer still, I highly recommend buying it. My wife had a copy but my brother in laws Rosh Yeshiva personally bought a copy for him since his wife gave her sister her copy from school. Most beis yaakovs in New York give them out to the students.July 18, 2011 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #787071
oomis: Are you a misnagid by any chance?? I’m truly sorry that Chassidim and their views intimidate you in any way? Sorry to disappoint you but tznius was made for everyone not only Chasidim.July 18, 2011 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #787073
Outlandish — yes, untsniusdic — no.
According to you, on-the ball, frum women are not tsniusdic — they were unusual clothing.July 18, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #787074
There are also chumros — they are for those who want to be ba’alei madreiga.
The thing is that in Eretz Yisroel, the Chareidim are into pushing chumros on everyone. In England, it is also so when it comes to tsnius.
Pushing chumros onto everyone?
Did someone come to your house and tell you that your women must dress a certain way or suffer consequences?
Or do you mean that the guilt you feel from not wanting to be a ba’al madreigah compels you to dress in a certain level of tznius that you feel is above you?
Perhaps it shows just how rabbonim kowtow to every “askan”, dont teach halacha, teach what we want to be the standard as halacha.
So what you are saying is, kavod haTorah doesn’t apply to you because you believe that the Rabbonim are not da’as Torah, they are fools that are swayed by every “askan” with an agenda.
Maybe this is a sign that you should stop taking your hashkafa from Catholic co-workers.July 18, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #787075
mdd – no not just funny – but also untzniusdik. Tznius is about not trying to overly attract attention and trying to be different, very noticed. If a frum Jewish girl starts wearing a nose-ring it’s a huge statement about how she perceives herself and how she would like to be perceived. It’s screaming – ‘Look at me – I don’t care about what’s normal, I’ll wear/do what I like, I’ll express my individuality in a HUGE way and everybody will notice’
There’s a way to express individuality without screaming for attention. Its a subtlety that has sadly been getting lost over the years since the 60’s.July 18, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #787076
alive and wellParticipant
tzinus is not attracting attJuly 18, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #787077
mdd i was referring to slinky type of long flowy skirts that outline the shape.July 18, 2011 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #787078
A ma’amin, Oomis did not bash Chassidim in any way, she just asked a rhetorical question.July 18, 2011 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #787080
Did someone come to your house and tell you that your women must dress a certain way or suffer consequences?
Quite common in EY & Europe (and certain areas in the US); its called schools & shidduchim. 🙁
(Please excuse me, I’m in a cynical mean mood. Take everything I say with multiple grains of salt)
1. Believing that people are motivated by self-interest; distrustful of human sincerity or integrity.July 18, 2011 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #787081
Fix-it-up, in such a case, I do hear.July 18, 2011 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #787082
“Most beis yaakovs in New York give them out to the students.”
Perhaps this is true in Boro Park.July 18, 2011 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #787083
“Pushing chumros onto everyone?
Did someone come to your house and tell you that your women must dress a certain way or suffer consequences?”
They dont have to. By excluding families (from schools for example) that do not dress this way and labeling them “untznius” is more than enough. Rabbeinu Tam tefillin is also for ballei madrega, would you say someone who doesnt wear these tefillin are not following halacha?
“Or do you mean that the guilt you feel from not wanting to be a ba’al madreigah compels you to dress in a certain level of tznius that you feel is above you?”
I have not seen anyone label dressing a certain way “madreigadik”, just tsniusdik.July 18, 2011 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #787084
“basic halachos of tznius??”
You REALLY want to know? Ask your Rav.July 18, 2011 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #787085
oomis: Are you a misnagid by any chance?? I’m truly sorry that Chassidim and their views intimidate you in any way? Sorry to disappoint you but tznius was made for everyone not only Chasidim. “
Nope, not at all. Chassadim do not intimidate me, as you put it. I come from Chassidic background from my Zaydy, though I was not brought up in a chassidish household. I find it interesting that you did not address the point I was making, that tznius is supposed to reflect NOT calling attention to ourselves. I said the same thing about Chareidi dress. People can dress in a normal fashion that blends in with everyone else and still be completely tzniusdig. I see it all the time wherever I go. But when a chossid or other type of chareidi person goes by, their clothing is immediately and particularly eye-catching, which would seem to me to defeat the purpose of dressing tzniusdigly. That is an observation on my part, NOT a putdown of Chassidim or anyone else.
Why can you not address that point withiout ascribing to it some agenda on my part? No one has ever given me a satisfactory answer on this issue, but instead, becomes defensive.July 18, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #787086
If a frum Jewish girl starts wearing a nose-ring it’s a huge statement about how she perceives herself and how she would like to be perceived”
There was a time thousands of years ago, when that was a typical fashion. Didn’t Eliezer give Rivkah such a gift?July 18, 2011 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #787087
happym19 asked about the BASIC halachos and now everyone is talking chumros – did the question get answered?
(This next part is just my own two cents – take it or leave it but don’t fight about it please!)
I’d hate to kill a good fight – but do we have to fight about Oz Vihadar Levusha? If someone is up to that – go ahead and follow what he says. If not, don’t and follow a different sefer or Rav. But don’t bash it cuz I think that is considered L”H. Could we please stop this conversation – (or at least move it to a new thread.)
And I know that we have this coming out of our ears but less than a week after the murder of Leiby A”H with everyone not sure what to do with themselves – are we still going to fight about Ruchinyos?!??! If someone wants to grow and become better, let them! It is one step closer to Moshiach coming!!! I really don’t think that Hashem is going to not bring Moshiach because people are following what it says in a sefer with Hilchos Tznius – Moshiach might be stopped if people say and write L”H.July 18, 2011 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #787088
Perhaps this is true in Boro Park.
In Flatbush and Kensington is where I’m talking about. (All the “yeshivish” beis yaakovs I am aware of, which is quite a lot.) BP is mostly Yiddish, so I don’t know, but they might have a Yiddish equivalent.July 18, 2011 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #787090
oomis – that is PRECISELY the point I was making. Our Imahos wore nose-rings yet today that would be considered abhorrent for a frum girl. Tzniyus in the context of what is outlandish and attention-seeking is dependent on the culture of the time and place.July 18, 2011 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #787091
They dont have to. By excluding families (from schools for example) that do not dress this way and labeling them “untznius” is more than enough.
That is not called pushing chumros on other people. If a community wants to accept on its self a certain standard of tznius it has that right. No one is being held at gunpoint to send their children to these Yeshivos/Beis Yakovs. If you are not comfortable dressing your children according to the tznius requirements of a certain school, send your children elsewhere.
Rabbeinu Tam tefillin is also for ballei madrega, would you say someone who doesnt wear these tefillin are not following halacha?
Do you think that a community that accepts on itself a certain level of tznius has to accept on itself all practices of ba’alei madreigah.
Tosafos in tznius is something that all chareidi communities accepted on themselves. Rabbeinu Tam teffilin is not.
I have not seen anyone label dressing a certain way “madreigadik”, just tsniusdik.
That comment was directed at an earlier post that appears to have been deleted.July 18, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #787092
How’s this for a rule of thumb:
If your choice of dress makes your shul’s Rebbetizn want to use you as a role model of how to dress like a bas yisroel, you are dressing tzniusdik.
If your choice of dress makes Lady Gaga want to “friend” you on facebook, you may want to consider a re-think.July 18, 2011 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #787093
DH. Anyone can set whatever standards they want for admission into a school, including dress. The point you apparently missed was rejecting those who “do not conform to the halachos of tznius”, not this high level of tznius for “baale madrega” as they were referred to. This is what “gets peoples goat” as the saying goes. If you reject someone for “not adhering to our chumros and standards in tznius” that is one thing. To simply say “she doesnt conform to the halachos of tznius, is quite another. Unfortunately, the latter statement is made by those “baalei madrega”.July 18, 2011 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #787094
bpt.thats funny but what im really asking is im ofcourse not looking for exceptions and different ways i can dress with still being tznius, i do follow by my comunity and do dresss acording to my ravs posek but i was just wondering i have seen many different types of peoples dress lately that they definatly consider tznius and they are still frum, just very different from what i would wear(like a little below collar bone or within a little bit away from the elbow, or no socks) so im just wondering what are the simple straight out basic halachos that a person is still considered “tznius” 🙂July 18, 2011 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #787095
bpt – brilliant. and now have you got a suggestion for the million levels in-between?July 18, 2011 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #787096
I didn’t read the whole thread but I want to mention that comparing ourselves to princesses can be very real. Just take a look at Kate Middleton-no, she’s not the ideal but she definitely dresses a lot more modestly than most people would love to but can’t. She is mostly seen wearing dresses and they’re usually pretty full. Yes, her arms and legs and knees, etc. are showing but in general she is dressed like a English princess. We have halachos so we take it to the next level.July 18, 2011 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #787097
“what are the simple straight out basic halachos that a person is still considered “tznius”? “
“have you got a suggestion for the million levels in-between? “
If how you are dressing is leading to more erlichkeit / eidlekeit, you are being tzanua. If you’re not dressig that way, you know it better than anyone else, and you know it before you step outside.
Ok, maybe the range that separates our women from lady g is more than a fair scale. But there are no “levels in between” when it comes to tznius. You are either playing fair or playing with fire. And it makes no differenece which community you are coming from. This weekend, I saw women in sandals / no socks who were more tzniusdik than were women in seamed 70s. Its not always what you wear, its how you wear it.
And each contestant knew exactly how she was percieved by the public eyeJuly 18, 2011 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #787099
BPT, who is lady G, and how do you know about her? (JK, although I find her abhorrent, personally).July 19, 2011 2:21 am at 2:21 am #787101
DH, was Yosef right in accusing his brothers of being shkotsim for following their psakim? Draw conclusions.July 19, 2011 2:43 am at 2:43 am #787107
Derech Hamelech is expressing true Hashkofos HaTorah.July 19, 2011 2:55 am at 2:55 am #787108
MDD. This is not a democracy. The editors of Pravda had a more lenient policy towards those who disagreed with them. These are the rules under one attempts to post a message in the CR. You have to take the good with the bad. Zeh hachaim. Hachaim lo picnic.July 19, 2011 3:44 am at 3:44 am #787111
And unfortunately, that is the situation in E.Y.July 19, 2011 3:57 am at 3:57 am #787113
Most beis yaakovs in New York give them out to the students.
If your choice of dress makes Lady Gaga want to “friend” you on facebook, you may want to consider a re-think.
The big problem isn’t a nut like her thinking that; its having facebook altogether. ?
Its not always what you wear, its how you wear it.
Good line. Someone with a “slight” issue (on one thing) will look a lot more tzanua than someone following the ABC’s that doesn’t get it the idea.
mischief: Good point.
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