B'chor Doing Avodah in Beis HaMikdash & Yerusha

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  • This topic has 16 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 6 years ago by ujew.
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  • #595981
    shlishi
    Member

    Three related questions:

    When the redemption comes, and the 3rd Beis HaMikdash is established, will the Avodah be done by b’chorim (first-borns) as originally intended before Kohanim replaced them due to the sin of the eigel?

    Also, if a first-born son was born via Caesarean section (C-section) is he still considered a b’chor — for a double portion of the yerusha, for the Avodah, for ????? ?????? on Erev Pesach, etc.?

    And does the halacha as codified in Shulchan Aruch provide that a b’chor today receives a double portion yerusha of his parents’ estate?

    #1050347
    Feif Un
    Participant

    I’ve heard that when Mashiach comes, the b’chorim will do the avodah. However, there is a famous story with the Chofetz Chaim that showed he held that when Mashiach comes, he, as a kohen, will do it. Maybe both will?

    As for the C-section question, I asked that to a Rav, as my oldest is a boy who was born via c-section. I was told that all the halachos are the same except for pidyon haben.

    #1050348
    shlishi
    Member

    Why should a C-section be treated differently for ????? ???? than for ????? ?????? (or ????? for that matter)? Either he is considered a ???? or not.

    #1050349

    Because he was not the ??? ???, the doctor was.

    #1050350

    im not even sure that is called peter rechem

    #1050351
    BHTWIA
    Participant

    There is a big difference between pidyon haben and yerusha. Pidyon haben is peter rechem – 1st born of the mother. Pi shnayim for yerusha is reishis ono – 1st born of the father. A man with multiple wives could end up being podeh a son multiple times, but only one will get pi shnayim in the yerusha. Therefore, I don’t think we can compare the halachos of pidyon haben with yerusha. As for taanis bechorim, I’m not familiar with the halachos, but lav davka that the rules are comparable with pidyon haben and/or yerusha.

    #1050352
    shlishi
    Member

    For a ???? to do the ????????? in the ?????????????????, does he have to be a ??? ????

    #1050353

    For a ???? to do the ????????? in the ?????????????????, does he have to be a ??? ???

    I’m tempted to say yes because it says in ????? ?’ ?”?-?”?, that ??? ??? was taken “??? ?? ???? ??? ???”.

    #1050354
    shlishi
    Member

    We still have unresolved regarding whether ????? ?????? is like ????? ???? and applies to a ??? ??? firstborn son of the mother (and therefore a father can have more than one such ???? – each from a different wife), or ????? ?????? is like ????? and applies to the firstborn son of the father, Reishis Ono, who needn’t be a ??? ???.

    Using my own logic, without knowing the sources, since the idea of ????? ?????? on ??? ??? comes because the Jewish firstborns were spared from ?????? ??????????, and Makos B’choros is also the reason the ?????????? were chosen to do the ????????? in the ?????????????????, it would seem that ????? ?????? would only apply to a ??? ???, and as such someone born via C-section wouldn’t be included.

    Another point that wasn’t addressed is whether the ????? ???? says that a ???? today receives ?? ????? (a double portion) for his ????? from his father.

    #1050355
    Feif Un
    Participant

    I was told that I have to fast until my son is 13.

    #1050356
    shlishi
    Member

    What if you were a ???? yourself, who would cover your minor son (the ????)?

    #1050357

    Just came from a siyum. I’m wondering if it is preferable to fast or to have a siyum?

    As far as the OT, perhaps the b’chorim will do the Avodah while the Kohanim, who are also Levyim obviously, will play the instruments and do what the Levyim do (along with the ‘plain’ Levyim.)

    Another interesting issue is whether a Ger may be considered a b’chor, since a convert is considered to be ‘born again’ at the time of conversion. Probably not though since he is lacking peter rechem.

    #1050358
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Derech: Isn’t there a gemara in Arachin like that?

    #1050359
    working
    Member

    The Taanis Bechorim can’t be compared to Pidyon Haben at all.

    If a woman has a miscarriage there is no Pidyon Haben but Taanis Bechorim does apply.

    #1050360
    Health
    Participant

    “I’ve heard that when Mashiach comes, the b’chorim will do the avodah. However, there is a famous story with the Chofetz Chaim that showed he held that when Mashiach comes, he, as a kohen, will do it. Maybe both will?”

    I hope you’re wrong and only the Kohanim will do it. I don’t like to work because I’m fat and lazy!

    #1050361
    LanderTalmid
    Participant

    As Derech mentioned earlier the pasuk says that the kohanim were taken in place of the “peter rechem”s. This fits with Rashi who says that Eisav was created second but came out first.

    ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????, ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????, ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ??????? ???? ????, ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??, ?????? ?????? ??? ??????, ??????? ?????? ??? ??????, ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ?????, ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????, ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??????, ?????? ?? ????, ????? ?? ?????? ?? ????:

    We see that Yacov had to buy the bechorah since eventhough he was created first the bechorah goes to whomever came out first.- peter rechem

    However regarding the makas bechoros there is a chazal that explains why Hashem Himself had to kill the bechorim and not through a malach, because only Hashem can distinguish between a drop that produced a bechor and one that didn’t. This means that the bechorim that died in Makas bechoros were the fistborn to their father.

    There are two reasons given for the taanis bechorim. I think that the Nafkah minah would be a C section. If we learn that they fast b/c of being spared in the Makah then all that matters is whether you are a first born to your father, however if it is for losing the avodah it would only apply to a peter rechem- one who opened his mother’s womb.

    #1050362
    ujew
    Participant

    As for the C-section question, I asked that to a Rav, as my oldest is a boy who was born via c-section. I was told that all the halachos are the same except for pidyon haben

    The Mechaber paskens in Choshen Mishpat ???, ? that ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???.

    As far as Ta’anis B’chorim the Shaarei Teshuva in Orach Chaim ??, ? is ????? whether the Yotzei Dofen has to fast.

    See here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_28075_28.pdf

    [??”? ??’ ?”? ??”?] ???? ??? ???? ???????. (?) ????”? ?????? ??”? [???? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ?”? ?????? ???? ??”?] ???? ????? ???????. (?) ????”? ??????? ????”? [??”? ?????? ??????? ??? ?’ ??’ ??”?] ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???????, ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???’ ?????? ???????

    The comment of Health above should not have been said even as a joke. It is reminiscent of “Lama Zeh Li B’chorah” said by Eisav – “Vayivez Eisav es Habechora”.

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