Being makpid on looks

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  • #595467
    chabad770
    Member

    Is there anything wrong for a yeshiva bochur to be makpid on dating girls who are very pretty? I’m not talking about somebody shallow ,so that is the only thing he cares about. I mean if he wants a nice girl with middos tovos, just he is also very makpid on her ‘looks’.

    #1210007
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    It is a mitzva to be Makpid on looks.

    See Gemorah, Rashi Keddushin 41a.

    #1210008

    Ask popa

    #1210009
    ha ha ha ha
    Member

    i hope you won’t divorce your wife after 50 when she is not so good looking anymore

    just a thought how would you feel if someone says no to you cause they don’t think your good looking?!?! Girls want preety husbands too!!

    #1210010
    s2021
    Member

    ugh- lets not call being into looks (nah- not shallow at all if theres other things on the list tooo!) being “makpid”

    #1210011
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Is there anything wrong for a yeshiva bochur to be makpid on dating girls who are very pretty?

    To insist on someone you are attracted to is very different than insisting on someone who is “very pretty”.

    If you say you need to marry someone who is a supermodel, that is a bit extreme.

    Otherwise, you should not let anyone convince you that looks are not important. If it is important to you, then it is important.

    #1210012
    observanteen
    Member

    I think it’s wrong if looks are the main focus. Will they turn down a good shidduch cuz the girl’s not “Miss Beauty”? Besides, I don’t think it’s very appropriate for boys (learning or not) to be so into looks. Ok, it’s fine if they want a good looking girl – that’s normal and the way it should be. But thinking abt it all day and debating whether this girl is prettier than the other…. I think it just doesn’t seem to fit into a torahdike way of life.

    #1210013
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “Is there anything wrong for a yeshiva bochur to be makpid on dating girls who are very pretty?”

    You mean because you’re a yeshiva bochur that you should be more machmir on good looks? Well, I was very machmir, and so were the Avos.

    Also, if you’re looking for middos too, Rav Aron Kotler zt’l would advise his talmidim to marry a girl from a poor family. I did, and never regretted it.

    #1210014
    shlishi
    Member

    “Is there anything wrong for a yeshiva bochur to be makpid on dating girls who are very pretty? I’m not talking about somebody shallow”

    being makpid on looks? okay. but imho, being “makpid” on girls who are “very pretty” is by definition shallow.

    #1210015
    chabad770
    Member

    ?

    #1210016
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    chabad770,

    It is important to be attracted to your spouse. One must, however, make sure that he is not letting the destructive culture that surrounds us in the West define what “pretty” is… because the Western ideal does not even exist in the real world.

    #1210017

    Obviously has the Gemara in Kiddushin says you need to be physically attracted to yor wife.

    But has a wise person once said to me you dont want to mary someone who looks like a supermodel because do you really what every guy walking down the street to LOOK at YOUR wife?

    #1210018
    me too
    Member

    Well over 40 years ago (I happened to be there for mincha) I overheard this exchange in 770

    Yainkel: Why do you need that feather in your hat?

    Maishe: It was there when I bought. Could not be bothered with trivialities Not worth my effort to remove it

    #1210019
    chabad770
    Member

    @ avram md- how does one define the differences between the two ? Any helpful tips to know what is important and what isn’t ?

    #1210020
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    chabad770,

    It’s much harder than defining differences. Images and immodesty are everywhere, in stores, advertisements, on the street, etc. As Jewish men, it is our job to not look, and to keep our thoughts away from those things. Then a healthier sense can be developed.

    #1210021
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Seforim write (I think Ohr HaChaim HaKadosh), that Yaakov Avinu wanted the more beautiful one, and the Torah actually states that fact, because one should try to find a pleasing one in his eyes, to have his mind & thoughts only in his wife. Rebbetzin Aba Chilkiya understood this too, and acted accordingly. Note we’re writing about Malachie Elyon, but it’s for us to take a lesson.

    #1210022
    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    You must and will feel attracted to your wife iyh. But remember how she looks on a date will be different to how she looks at 4am in a snood while changing a diaper! So yes while looks and chitzoniyos are also important, remember al tistakel b’kankan ELAH B’MAH SHEYESH BAH!

    #1210023
    0710
    Participant

    From a girl’s point of view, I find these questions ridiculous. Every girl is given a certain amount of beauty and chen, and it’s the inner middos that makes someone likeable or repulsive in the long run. Like all the other gashmiyus in this world, beauty fades. The middos of the person you marry hopefully won’t.

    #1210024
    real-brisker
    Member

    Are you asking if looks are important? Well thats up to you – However anything that you do feel is important to you, then it indeed is important, and you should make sure to look for what your looking for.

    #1210025
    goldenkint
    Member

    a cetain extremely fine and solid yeshivah bochur asked his rebbe the same question. The rebbe said , “of course you have to be makpid on looks, your wife has to be beautiful,in your eyes.”

    When this young man was in shiducchim , he never told anyone except his mother that he wanted to marry a pretty girl. The wise mother told him not to worry about it. he should go out with the girls that are suggested based on middos, compatibility and other important faCTORS AND RELY ON HASHEM TO SEND HIM HIS bASHERT. nATURALLY, IF HE DIDN’T LIKE THE GIRL, WHETHER FOR LOOKS OR PRSONALITY ETC, AFTER A FEW DATES NOTHING WOULD WORK OUT.

    The mother also never told anyone that her son needed a very pretty girl because it made him sound shallow which he wasn’t. he just was used to goodlooking women because both his bubbies, and all his sisters were very good looking and to him this was the norm. he was actually surprised once when he happened to see a class picture of one of his sisters to notice that she was exceptional in her looks, he thought it was ordinary.

    When the time came and he met his wife they hit it off immediately. her smile and her kind expression make you want to like her as soon as you meet her. in addition to her excellent middos and their compatibilty in personality and hashkafa, she happens to be very, goodlooking, in an extremely natural unenhanced way. beautiful both inside and out. The wise mother said. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I was sure he would find his wife to be beautiful, even if the rest of the world didn’t so i didn’t need to tell anyone. (but some other relatives were so surprised, knowing this really serious boy ,and seeing the engagement pictures they said, “how come he got such a beautiful kallah) Hashem sends each person what they need.

    in my experience when you get to know a person and like them they become beautiful in your eyes. Daven to Hashem to send you your eishet Chayil and that she should be beauitiful both inside and out, if she’s beautiful in your eyes and beautiful in her middos and behavior then your tefillot will be answeed. don’t just loook at looks. look at her expression, and how she relates to other people. does she complain a lot, is she kind and helpful, short tempered or patient . these are long term qualities you want.

    #1210026

    s2021 – yeah I was just thinking, if this is the latest chumra, what are all the girls who don’t look like models going to do?

    #1210027
    cshapiro
    Member

    If ur looking for arm candy…but remember mr. Chabad it works both ways…i think im entitled to only date gorgeous football players, but thats just my take on looks. and btw I feel the same abt careers….as a cpa wannabe shud I settle for anything less???

    #1210028
    pumper
    Member

    There are plenty of girls who get engaged who are not super pretty, or maybe not pretty at all, and even (gasp) overweight.

    When I see these shidduchim, I applaud the boy and his parents, who obviously did a superb job raising him to look at the important things in life.

    #1210029
    mytake
    Member

    pascha bchochma

    Don’t worry; beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so every girl can be a model to someone…you just gotta find the right beholder!

    pumper

    Don’t assume that these boys weren’t looking for someone pretty-they probably think that this “not pretty at all” girl is gorgeous.

    Thank God that beauty is, in fact, in the eyes of the beholder…otherwise there would takeh be a pretty serious shidduch crisis…

    #1210030
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There are two aspects of this that women will never understand, and you can find both in this thread.

    A. Women think this is a moral issue, as if good upbringing will cause a guy to not need to be attracted to his wife.

    B. Women have a much more holistic view of “looks”, and count all sorts of odd things in the mix, and especially diminish the significance of weight. (look Sac, he’s talking about weight again.)

    #1210031
    shlishi
    Member

    “A. Women think this is a moral issue, as if good upbringing will cause a guy to not need to be attracted to his wife.”

    thats not a fair description. everyone (man and woman) agrees a guy needs to be attracted to his wife. what people are saying is that the corrupt definition of “attractive” as defined by hollywood and goyisha culture is wrong and shallow.

    #1210032
    charliehall
    Participant

    “the Gemara in Kiddushin says you need to be physically attracted to yor wife”

    I looked up that gemara last night. It say you aren’t supposed to be repulsed, not that she has to look like a supermodel.

    “what are all the girls who don’t look like models going to do? “

    They will be single for their entire lives. As will the boys who insist on a girl who looks like a supermodel. As a result, the Orthodox Jewish population will decline dramatically, as most young people won’t get married at all, and those who do will get divorced because supermodel looks don’t survive several pregnancies.

    “Like all the other gashmiyus in this world, beauty fades. The middos of the person you marry hopefully won’t. “

    Maybe we should pay more attention to what most of us sing every Friday night: “Sheker hachen v’hevel hayofi ishah yir’at Hashem hi tit’halal.”

    #1210033
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They will be single for their entire lives. As will the boys who insist on a girl who looks like a supermodel. As a result, the Orthodox Jewish population will decline dramatically, as most young people won’t get married at all, and those who do will get divorced because supermodel looks don’t survive several pregnancies.

    Since that’s not happening, B”H, and, in fact, the vast majority are getting married, I suppose that means that most boys are not makpid on looks to the extent suggested in this thread.

    #1210034
    shlishi
    Member

    DY: B”H for that.

    #1210035
    Sacrilege
    Member

    pba

    We can do this on every thread and dance around the issue. There is a difference between wanting a wife that you are attracted to and wanting to ___________ the minute you see her. One is normal and the other well, youre an animal.

    “There are two aspects of this that women will never understand”

    Oh believe me, we understand more than you think.

    No one is saying you have to marry a dog, but throwing up your hands and saying well, this is how I was created, cant do anything about it, goes against pretty much the whole premise of Judaism.

    Heck, I feel like a cheeseburger for lunch. Cant help it, its my nature, I crave meat and milk.

    charliehall

    “I looked up that gemara last night. It say you aren’t supposed to be repulsed”

    Thank you!

    Somehow I knew that Gemora was being misquoted.

    #1210036
    oomis
    Participant

    You need to be attracted. Attraction is very subjective. I have seen some really unattractive girls, whose chossonim thought they were gorgeous. Stop worrying so much about looks, and get to know a girl, who might be very attractive to YOU even if not to someone else.

    #1210037
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sac:

    I am not dancing around the issue. You will find I said the precise same thing at the beginning of this thread.

    You will also notice, that we do still disagree. Within the normal realm, you think that it is like cheeseburgers, an inappropriate desire which can and should be controlled. I think the desire for an attractive (to you) spouse is normal, and proper.

    I don’t think this goes against Judaism. I don’t think it is something that a guy should be working against.

    #1210038
    charliehall
    Participant

    Ditto DY and shlishi.

    #1210039
    mw13
    Participant

    I think everybody here agrees to two facts:

    1) A man must be attracted to his wife. Therefore, he should date girls he finds attractive.

    2) On the other hand, a man cannot, as sac put it, be an animal. Looks should not be all he cares about.

    To find the perfect middle ground here is not easy, and it varies by the boy. Therefore, I think this is a personal issue that should be between the boy and his Rebbi. I do not think there is a black and white, all across the board answer here.

    #1210040
    pumper
    Member

    mytake-

    I believe that they do consider the girl they marry to be pretty, but if her looks go against every preconceived notion of what pretty is, most likely he is attracted to her inner beauty, which may be reflected as chein on the outside. Again, this probably goes back to his upbringing on what is considered pretty. Is it external, physical looks or the inner beauty that is shining through?

    #1210041
    Sacrilege
    Member

    It is I who is doing the dancing, because if I would be able to write what I want to the conversation would be over.

    “You will find I said the precise same thing at the beginning of this thread.”

    At the beginning of the thread you said, “If you say you need to marry someone who is a supermodel, that is a bit extreme.” Ironically, I have less of an issue with this person than you, because at least he ownes up to being shallow and doesnt hide behind misquoted Gemoras. Furthermore, this individual is only doing himself a disservice because what he considers a supermodel is not everyones definition.

    “Within the normal realm, you think that it is like cheeseburgers, an inappropriate desire which can and should be controlled. I think the desire for an attractive (to you) spouse is normal, and proper.”

    Clearly you did not understand my point. I have NO PROBLEM w someone wanting to be attracted to their spouse. I have a problem with you constantly saying (not verbatim): this is our nature, its how men are created, we cant help it, woman cant understand…. That is where the cheeseburger comparison came in to play.

    #1210042
    shlishi
    Member

    “if her looks go against every preconceived notion of what pretty is”

    huh? what are “preconceived notions” of prettiness? what hollywood and goyisha culture determined? nothing else is predetermined. everything is in the eye of the beholder.

    and inner beauty is the beauty that counts — and lasts.

    #1210043
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Clearly you did not understand my point. I have NO PROBLEM w someone wanting to be attracted to their spouse. I have a problem with you constantly saying (not verbatim): this is our nature, its how men are created, we cant help it, woman cant understand…. That is where the cheeseburger comparison came in to play.

    I do not say that about guys who want a 10. (I don’t mean size 10). I say that in response to women who think it is somehow illegitimate and improper for a guy to insist on “pretty” (according to his tastes).

    Perhaps we do not disagree.

    But, I still think we do.

    #1210044
    cshapiro
    Member

    hold up…why is it okay for a guy to want a gorgeous girl when he is ugly? but if a gorgeous girl asks for a football player they get the ‘look’ and are called superficial bla bla bla…

    #1210045
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    cshapiro:

    I don’t think it is right for a guy to insist on a “gorgeous” girl.

    And I equally find it odd for a girl to insist on football player.

    I also don’t know what you find attractive about football players.

    #1210046
    Sacrilege
    Member

    “why is it okay for a guy to want a gorgeous girl when he is ugly?”

    Are we talking about like 85% of the Jewish demographic here?

    #1210047
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oh. Do you find 85% of guys ugly?

    #1210048
    Sacrilege
    Member

    “somehow illegitimate and improper for a guy to insist on “pretty” (according to his tastes).”

    Perhaps you just need a lesson on phraseology and/or refinement. I believe all you meant to say was that you feel one should be attracted to their spouse. Agreed.

    #1210049
    Sacrilege
    Member

    Jewish? Not all 85% UGLY. But yes, not attractive.

    Good thing I’m not a guy and I take more than looks in to account 😉

    #1210050
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Great, well then now that we have agreed on our definitions;

    Maybe guys find 85% of jewish women unattractive, and we agree it is proper for a guy to want a wife he finds attractive.

    It is a good thing guys actually find most jewish girls attractive. But I am happy we now have your haskama to look only for the top 15%.

    #1210051
    Sacrilege
    Member

    Did I say I was looking for the top 15%?

    EDITED POST

    Due to a certain posters insisting that we can not joke in the CR.

    #1210052
    cshapiro
    Member

    @popa ‘I also don’t know what you find attractive about football players.’

    whats not to like??? lol i dont think skinny guys are cute…manarexic, def not cool!

    #1210054
    Ofcourse
    Member

    Are some here thinking that, with guys, looks is most often the frontrunner to personality? Some girls have the most sweet, chainifdik personalities and people just fall in love with them.

    #1210056
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, 15% is what remains when you skim off 85%.

    #1210057
    Sacrilege
    Member

    “Well, 15% is what remains when you skim off 85%.”

    You really do just see what you want, dont you?

    After my comment about not finding 85% of Jewish men PHYSICALLY attractive I said this:

    “Good thing I’m not a guy and I take more than looks in to account ;)”

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