Being sensitive towards tragedy

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Being sensitive towards tragedy

Viewing 27 posts - 51 through 77 (of 77 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1971795
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If it makes the people visited feel good, I don’t think it matters. We have to judge according to the background of the individual. דברים שבלב אינן דברים, מעשה מוצא מידי מחשבה acttons are more important than what his inner thougts are.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Reb Eliezer.
    #1971798
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    You want to talk about photo ops. see how the Republican politicians take advantage of something they voted against:
    https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1971612/republicans-promote-pandemic-relief-they-voted-against.html.

    #1971806
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    No. We don’t want to talk about republican photo ops. That was a comment about schumer using a shiva call inappropriately. Do you get the irony of needing to throw that in on a discussion about sensitivity?

    #1971893
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I did not make it to town this week. So I looked it up on Hebrew books.

    The Chasam Sofer is discussing the passing of a tzaddik, in a specific context. Namely, one leader passing on as averting disaster for his followers. He even writes that this does not apply if two leaders pass on together. Along the way he gets into a discussion about a young leader who does not yet have followers. This is not relevant to what just occurred. Though it is similar to what was said from the Chofetz Chaim. A thought that follows is, that one leader passing would have averted such an absence.

    #1972008
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    …..just such an occurrence.

    I may have missed something in the Chasam Sofer. When I get the actual sefer, I will look it over.

    #1972517
    RBZS
    Participant

    WHY DON’T YOU POST THIS? I HAVE SENT IT MANY TIMES?

    I don’t understand how you do not see in the Chasam Sofer’s words exactly what I wrote.
    He said:
    כשרוב עונות גורם חלילה הקב”ה נוטל הרב שבהם ר”ל לכפר על הכלל וכעין כפרת פרה אדומה
    Which means: When the many sins cause [a tragedy] chalilah, Hashem takes the greatest one amongst them Rl, to forgive the community, just as the Parah Adumah does.

    Following is a Kabbalistic explanation of how this works:
    ספר אמרי מנחם – פרשת אחרי
    אולי יש לפרש הענין כי לפעמים יש קטרוג גדול על ישראל, ואי אפשר להשתיק אותו, אזי הצדיקים שבדור מעלים את הכלל ישראל לבחינת כתר, ששם אין הקטרוג שולט, כי הכתר הוא בחי’ אין, ובאין לא שייך שום קטרוג, וע”י ההתעלות אל בחינת כתר מדת אין מתבטלים שם הצדיקים ונפטרים מן העולם, וזהו הפי’ ‘מיתת צדיקים מכפרת כיום הכיפורים’, כי זו היא מדריגת יום הכיפורים, דביה אתגלי עתיקא קדישא לכפרא על חוביהון דכולא כדאיתא בזוה”ק (ח”ג סח ע”ב), היינו שע”י התגלות הכתר שהוא בחי’ אין מתבטלים כל החטאים והקטרוגים הבאים מחמתם:
    However, I would like to clarify something. I am in no way advising anyone how to be Menachem avel. It is a very difficult halachah to observe properly and it surely depends upon the individuals involved (the mourners and the comforters) and the situation and the timing and many other factors.
    I joined this conversation because someone complained about the usage of the term korbanos by anyone, and, since I am aware of the fact that Gedolim do use that terminology, I objected to our opinionating ourselves.
    As the conversation developed, I realized that some participants do not understand the concept at all and so I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to explain it.
    G-d willing, may we never have to console anyone again.
    Shabbat shalom and Chag sameiach.

    #1972528
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Anaf Yosef says that there is no reason as parah adumah but maybe the parah adumah cleanses, so the tzadikim also cleanse us by learning from them how to behave but if we don’t learn from them, what is the use?

    #1972539
    ywnjudy
    Participant

    To the OP – Actually? I think among the BIGGEST korbon’s in this tragedy are Aryeh Deri, and the organizers of the event. How Deri must feel, is beyond what I can fathom, way worse than when he was imprisoned. Somewhat like that guy in the Modiin region who chauffered a neighbor’s child in hot weather, and forgot he was in the car.

    The crazy thing is, Deri had not even wanted to be in the knesset after he was imprisoned – they begged him. I wonder if there’s a support group for people like that. That’s probably why Rav Shteinman was so adamant about a toned-down levaya.

    I’m sure he very much remembered what happened at Rav Wosner’s levaya.

    So many people are attributing the tragedy to things like tzniut, talking in shul etc. I’m not saying those aren’t factors. What i am saying is that the most obvious which may be less talked about is: This is an immature, infantile generation, which doesn’t look before it leaps. Doesn’t think before it acts. Isn’t roeh es hanolad, to think of the outcome of every one of its actions. For example, that giving kids motorized bikes and letting them drive recklessly, is lots of excruciating irreversible pain waiting to happen to the victims they knock down.

    #1972759
    RBZS
    Participant

    I don’t understand how you do not see in the Chasam Sofer’s words exactly what I wrote.
    He said:
    כשרוב עונות גורם חלילה הקב”ה נוטל הרב שבהם ר”ל לכפר על הכלל וכעין כפרת פרה אדומה
    Which means: When the many sins cause [a tragedy] chalilah, Hashem takes the greatest one amongst them Rl, to forgive the community, just as the Parah Adumah does.

    #1972792

    ywnjudy> organizers of the event….most obvious which may be less talked about is: This is an immature, infantile generation, which doesn’t look before it leaps.

    I don’t know whether we mean the same thing, but there is a direct explanation here – they went there against health regulation and advice of some gedolim. I am ok with generalizing to the sins of generation, but I don’t understand those who ponder about the even without considering most direct explanation (unless it is done in the context of not hurting people directly affected by the tragedy).

    There was a call for a fast on front page here. Do many people plan to participate? There was no hint in the call that this calls to reflect on the behaviors that called the disaster.

    #1973071
    Rebeli
    Participant

    Really interesting, I’m a bit confused is who or what is deri?

    #1973724
    RBZS2
    Participant

    I don’t understand how you do not see in the Chasam Sofer’s words exactly what I wrote.
    He said:
    כשרוב עונות גורם חלילה הקב”ה נוטל הרב שבהם ר”ל לכפר על הכלל וכעין כפרת פרה אדומה
    Which means: When the many sins cause [a tragedy] chalilah, Hashem takes the greatest one amongst them Rl, to forgive the community, just as the Parah Adumah does.

    Following is a Kabbalistic explanation of how this works:
    ספר אמרי מנחם – פרשת אחרי
    אולי יש לפרש הענין כי לפעמים יש קטרוג גדול על ישראל, ואי אפשר להשתיק אותו, אזי הצדיקים שבדור מעלים את הכלל ישראל לבחינת כתר, ששם אין הקטרוג שולט, כי הכתר הוא בחי’ אין, ובאין לא שייך שום קטרוג, וע”י ההתעלות אל בחינת כתר מדת אין מתבטלים שם הצדיקים ונפטרים מן העולם, וזהו הפי’ ‘מיתת צדיקים מכפרת כיום הכיפורים’, כי זו היא מדריגת יום הכיפורים, דביה אתגלי עתיקא קדישא לכפרא על חוביהון דכולא כדאיתא בזוה”ק (ח”ג סח ע”ב), היינו שע”י התגלות הכתר שהוא בחי’ אין מתבטלים כל החטאים והקטרוגים הבאים מחמתם:
    However, I would like to clarify something. I am in no way advising anyone how to be Menachem avel. It is a very difficult halachah to observe properly and it surely depends upon the individuals involved (the mourners and the comforters) and the situation and the timing and many other factors.
    I joined this conversation because someone complained about the usage of the term korbanos by anyone, and, since I am aware of the fact that Gedolim do use that terminology, I objected to our opinionating ourselves.
    As the conversation developed, I realized that some participants do not understand the concept at all and so I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to explain it.
    G-d willing, may we never have to console anyone again.
    Shabbat shalom and Chag sameiach

    #1973726
    ywnjudy
    Participant

    To AAQ: Since you brought up “health” note that I personally have been the least focused on Covid of anyone, since the entire thing started. I always skip over articles about same, as i’m focused on my own chronic issues (which are probably mutually exclusive to Covid) and which have never been of concern to anyone else, least of all the suppressive unhealthcare system.

    (Just giving you some background, as its beyond the scope of this discussion.)

    Which leads up to “why” i didn’t have in mind so much the Covid factor, as much as the jostling-crowd-factor unsafety factor. In other words, I get just as much the creeps from motorized-bikes mowing people down in the U.S. (and all sorts of stuff like that) as I’d be if i lived in Israel and knew that a relative was headed to the huge jostling crowds of Meron. It was a known fact every year that the crowds at Meron were scary (just research past chatter, especially by people who lived in the vicinity). i distinctly remember reading such chatter in the past, and you better believe i wouldn’t remember it if it hadn’t given me the chills when i read it.

    Rebeli, Aryeh Deri, MK, mentioned in the news prior to and post-tragedy.

    #1973936

    ywnjudy > Covid factor, as much as the jostling-crowd-factor unsafety factor.

    there might be a correlation here. Presumably, many people listened to doctors, police, gedolim, parents .. so, the ones who went were to begin with, unsafe people. So, they were a little more unsafe there than a usual crowd.

    The issues are even physically the same – in both cases – covid and crowds – the mitzva is to respect other people and stay away out of their private 4 amot, and actively protect them when needed.

    Crowds trumpling on people happens, but having it happen ina Jewish crowd is almost like seeing them eating treif – not normal. It all starts with one person pushing (slightly) another, then 2nd person pushes third, and at the same time somewhere ahead there is an obstacle. But how could the first person move into the 2nd person’s space? and how the 2nd person did not have space between him and the next person, etc. Same issue as students of R Akiva – lack of respect to other people.

    #1974252
    RBZS
    Participant

    I would like to clarify something. I am in no way advising anyone how to be Menachem avel. It is a very difficult halachah to observe properly and it surely depends upon the individuals involved (the mourners and the comforters) and the situation and the timing and many other factors.
    I joined this conversation because someone complained about the usage of the term korbanos by anyone, and, since I am aware of the fact that Gedolim do use that terminology, I objected to our opinionating ourselves.
    As the conversation developed, I realized that some participants do not understand the concept at all and so I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to explain it.
    G-d willing, may we never have to console anyone again.
    Shabbat shalom and Chag sameiach.

    #1975155
    ywnjudy
    Participant

    Always_Ask:
    In this instance i wouldn’t be quick to judge, because i read there was suspicious wetness on the metal ramp which created an abnormal slippery situation. Even in normal circumstances, people make missteps. So i wouldn’t judge them regarding “pushing or shoving”.

    But now especially, after finding out about the Givat Zev bleachers tragedy, we must start analyzing the “metaphysical” aspect of all this, namely, that the special “shemirah” is now being withheld, and thus it’s currently inadvisable to be “somech al ha’neis” anymore.

    See, as far back as decades ago, i used to witness ongoing open miracles in Israel, where little kids, sans adult supervision, would be recklessly running on stone walls which had no railings, coupled with sheer drops to concrete way below. Yet they all remained unscathed! Having witnessed such scenes ongoingly, I have ZERO doubt, that zillions of malachim have been constantly vigilant to guard the many happy-go-lucky people in Israel. As in “shomer psayim Hashem”.

    Without a doubt, malachim have also worked overtime during every PAST Lag B’Omer in Meron. And that’s why the world hasn’t heard of such tragedies previously.

    I mean, think about it. Isn’t it uncanny that a similar incident took place in Givat Zev so soon after Meron? How many numerous times have dense charedi crowds used bleachers in the past – ones which also probably weren’t built too well?
    …And isn’t it uncanny that suddenly, the Iron Dome became so “overwhelmed”?

    Do you really really think the aforesaid malachim couldn’t have mopped up the slippery wetness at Meron AND also prevented the people from toppling on each other? I myself had a miracle happen one Friday in Israel, when visiting Hebrew University, which me & my mother became aware was a near ghost town. Every which way we went trying to exit, was locked. I panicked, realizing it was soon Shabbos, so I scurried down the hall peeking into classrooms, then eventually found a chossid at a shtender inside one of the rooms, who seemed to be davening. He didn’t say a word, just motioned to me to wait, and eventually he led us, as well as a lost backpacker down a stationary escalator to a concrete platform, where we saw the Egged bus approaching. During all that time, he never said a word, just walked ahead of us, and we followed with sighs of relief. I’m sure that was Eliyahu Hanavi making sure we got back in time for Shabbos, because why on earth would a chossid be in an abandoned university in East Jerusalem on a Friday?

    In summation, there’s times filled with open miracles, other times containing hidden miracles, and finally (such as many current happenings), the withholding of shemirah.

    #1975157
    ywnjudy
    Participant

    P.S. Sorry I didn’t clarify clearly what i meant by “infantile generation”. What i meant was, it’s as if G-d is saying, “Enough! By now you all need to learn not to be reckless and expect to be bailed out. Being reckless is a form of Not Being Noheg Kavod Zeh Lozeh! So no more bailouts. You all have to learn to respect each other, both verbally and physically, or live with the consequences. Nomore quick-words, and nomore reckless-moves.”

    I should emphasize – I didn’t mean Meron “per se” or Givat Zev “per se” (because both were involuntary insofar as the attendees, not necessarily the organizers). Rather i mean that what happened there may be symbolic of the =biggest= reason for the G-d’s anger, which would be kavod habrios – not necessarily tznius-issues, or excess-gashmius. I hope i clarified myself.

    #1975207
    Rebeli
    Participant

    I jus don’t understand how such a similar thing can happen in the stolin community so short after the recent tradegy, we’re they not double and triple checked for safety issues?

    #1975271
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a story in tractate Shabbos about a man who did not have anyone to nurse a baby and a miracle happened to be able to nurse. There are two views there. One says how great he is but the other says how demeaning it is that the normal nature was changed as menakin lo mizochiyosov, his good deed will be diminished, so if there are no good deeds to be worthy, it will not happen.

    #1975359

    >> thus it’s currently inadvisable to be “somech al ha’neis” anymore.

    I understand your sentiment re:miracles in Israel, and I hate to contradict with cold numbers: for example, if you look at deaths at auto accidents in Israel – they were way higher than all developed countries (500 per mln vehicles in 1970 v. 300 in France and 100-200 in other countries). Now it is 100 v 50 to 100 in most countries. So, those kids running without railings were growing into adults who drove the same way … maybe there is a benign explanation that at the time less people had vehicles and they were from a more reckless category.

    there is also something eery with end of covid in Israel – before anywhere else, was immediately followed by Meron and then Hamas …

    Still your statement above presumes that we are to rely on miracles which sounds like contradicting conclusion of the Gemora in Shabbos 32 which discusses exactly the case – people are tested when they are crossing bridges, and ends with R’ Yannai’s advice to check the boat before going in rather than rely on contradictory ideas from Rav and Shmuel to not have or have a gentile in your boat. Maybe someone can explain better how these different ways of dealing with risk relate to each other

    #1975440
    ywnjudy
    Participant

    Always_Ask:
    Do those statistics you cited include the percentages among the casualties who were, say, shomer shabbat, atheists, leftists etc.? (Just curious.) I previously failed to mention that the kids whom i cited running without railings, were from “ultra” charedi families, every last one of them. Possibly their dati status provided extra zechuyot? Don’t get me wrong, my own level of religiosity is probably a far cry from those kids’ families, so consider this an objective perspective.

    Now, as to what you said about relying on miracles – i didn’t say that we should rely on miracles, rather, I said it’s currently inadvisable to rely on miracles anymore. That comment was intended for those who are by nature careless/reckless (no matter how many past teachers taught them they’re not supposed to rely on miracles).

    Another way of putting it, is “shomer psayim H’ – because (during “normal” times) it’s a given that a good number of people are reckless. So G-d sends out guardian angels made-to-order for such types. However, during times of Middas Hadin, perhaps even the psayim may have less protection. Like maybe the mechablim overwhelm the protective malachim, or alternatively, an absenteeism of protective malachim.

    That’s why i said it’s currently inadvisable to be somech al haneis.

    #1975547
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear RBZS,

    I apologize for not replying sooner. Your posts do not show right away. [I don’t know if it is the site. Or my use of it. Either way it is weird.] I say your last post before yom tov. But I only say the other two today.

    The Chassam Sofer is taking about a tzaddik that the people rely on. It specifically refers to a known leader that people are welcomed to partake of the tzadik’s assistance. See there for a discussion about Nadav and Avihu’s lack of involvement with the common people. There is no mention of the term korbonos. And it has no bearing on the passing of young people who were anonymous to us.

    Your newer source is interesting, thanks for sharing it. Note how it compares the passing of the tzadik to yom kippur, not korbonos. I would like to read the whole piece, as it leaves me very puzzled. What lis lifting the Jews up to that level?

    #1975575

    ywnjudy,
    I agree that risk is relative to perception in the society. This generation is much more sensitive to risk than previous ones, just because we reduced a lot of risks. At the time, when you could have been attacked by bandits, arrested by Romans or Soviets, etc, you might have disregarded some of the risks we are sensitive to. On the other hand, Gemora gets into long discussions about quote esoteric rirsk, like drinking cups in pairs, bring an example of a guy who lost count after 10+ cups, ended up drinking pairs, and gave an opportunity to his hating ex-wife to affect his mazal, so that he died after leaving the pub. As close as you can get to “do not drink and drive”.

    So, if someone habitually was doing dangerous things at heights in explicit violation of a biblical commandment “build a fence over your roof”, not sure how simple those people you describe had to be…

    Some sources on lashon hara distinguish between people who violate a well-known mitzvot, say kashrut, about whom you can presume they violate others also, and people who mistakenly things something is not an important mitzva (say, onaas devarim). you can’t presume that they would violate other mitzvos, only these ones.

    #1976320
    RBZS
    Participant

    Today’s Daf Hayomi:
    תלמוד בבלי מסכת יומא דף מב/א
    וההוא יומא נח נפשיה דרביא בר קיסי ואנחו בה סימנא רביא [בר] קיסי מכפר כשעיר המשתלח
    That day Ravya the son of Kisi died and they declared it as a sign: Ravya bar Kisi brings forgiveness like the sa’ir of Yom Kippur which is sent away.

    #1976829
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear RZBS,

    I think your posts go to spam. Mods?

    Yep

    #1976867
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear RZBS,

    Exactly!

    #1976938

    Rashi hyperlinks to Moed Katan 28a (Blomberg allows hyperlinks when YWN does not 🙂 for a long discussion on meaning of different types of deaths, you may want to look there if you are so inclined.

    also, you can see when someone’s post is in SPAM: the page with topics says last post by RZBS, then you click on the topic and that post is not there

Viewing 27 posts - 51 through 77 (of 77 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.