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“Its ok to say that the victims of meron or any tragedy were korbonos for us”
No one it’s not ok.
think about the bochurim who were niftar and the other 10s of people.
This is hard to write as I know many people who came close to death.
It makes me very angry, who has the right to say all these things and similar thingsUnfortunately you’re right.
I came back from one of the levayahs yesterday and checked the news to find comments like who is at fault? The police who held back in carrying out their duty, or the Israelis who compare the Israeli police to Nazis?
I don’t think we should feel anger. I think we should truly feel bad for all the people who are so cold-hearted that they can use a tragedy to badmouth their fellow jews.
The Chasan Sofer explains the passage on the Haggadah, we shoulld be able to eat there from the sacrifices and pesachim were the blood was sprinkled on the walls of the mizbeach larotzan, with acceptance. Indicating something pleasant. This korbonos are not taken as pleasant. When tzadikim pass on. it is a kapara for all of us as they have satisfied their temporary assignment and it might hurt us being compared to them, saying why we are not like them but for above they should live on to spread their rightiousness.
The passing on of tzadikim is greater than the destruction of the Beis Hamimdash. The destruction of tbe Beis Bamimdash we remember once a year, but the loss of tzadikim is with us.
@op
it’s not ok? it makes you angry? bochurim can’t be korbonos?
@madealiyah
“unfortunately, you’re right”
you proceed to say it’s terrible to blame anyone for this tragedy. a point that has nothing to do with the post you just agreed with.@rebeliezer
no! Maybe the Satan takes whoever is there at that moment, however I just don’t agree how can you tell a parent of a niftar, your son was a korban, but that’s not the point.woops, wrong screenname
The term korbonos bothers me. Always did.
This is exceptionally horrifying, in that there were so many people that were so powerless. Usually crowds are a source of comfort. As in somebody would be able to help.
Nom – The first time I heard that term used was when I was 19 and I was at the funeral of my 17 year old sister. I am not sure if I understood what the speaker meant at that time but I would definitely say that if someone wants to use that term/understanding of a situation it is fine, but should not be directed toward the mourners.
It is interesting that you mention powerlessness. I did mention to a friend that I believed that the powerlessness was probably the biggest trauma to the hatzalah team. I never thought about it in terms of the bystanders tho. Thank you for another place to be empathetic. I always appreciate different perspectives of things, and I know mine is skewed a bit because of the young deaths I experienced early on.
It’s also nice to see you are alive and well.
The Gedolim know what is right and what is wrong.
Who are we do disagree with them?
One of the major problems of our generation is that we have the audacity to disagree and even criticize the Gedolei Yisroel.and do you also understand why saying it about bachurim is any worse?
Dear Syag,
Thanks, and likewise.
Dear Rbzs,
I am unaware of any gedolim as being the cause of this thread. Please do not fill me in. The discussion is about how it feels to receive the term. And, by extension, it’s use.
“מרון שנת תשפ”א” מספר קטן = 45 !!!!!!!!!!!
I think there s a great misunderstanding here which needs clarification.
Throughout Tanach and Chazal we are taught, again and again, than when chas veshalom there is a bad gezeirah on Klal Yisroel, and the possibility exits that many of them may be killed Rl, sometimes Hashem will have Mercy upon them and take a Tzaddik, who is considered equal to many (Moshe Rabbeinu was equal to 60,000 Jews), and his demise will serve as a kapparah for the others.
When one is declared a “korban” it is probably the greatest honor and compliment he may receive. It means that he was considered to be equal to many and was privileged to bring kapparah to Klal Yisroel, for which he will be rewarded immensely in Gan Eden, which is the goal we all were put here to receive (see perek 1 in Mesilas Yesharim).
It is an even greater compliment when the niftar was young as it shows that in his few years, he served Hashem so devoutly that he reached that madreigah.
Anyone who is insulted by the term, simply does not understand its meaning.
Of course it is very difficult for the mourners to hear, just as it is difficult for them to hear all words of consolation when they are in such pain. But, as time begins to heal the wounds somewhat, they will hopefully realize how privileged they were to have brought into the world such a great tzaddik who was able to protect Klal Yisroel from tremendous tragedy chas veshalom.RBS2 Becaue infallibility is for the pope. We have Par Helem Davar and Par Haba Al Kol Hamitzvos for that very reason.
A korban is pointless if the corrective mahshva or action is ignored. Sensitivity is looking long and hard at the klal uprat and finding cause for the tragedy .That is the point of this weeks second parsha, of Ramban hilchot Teshuva and of Maharal on Sara Imenu’s captivity in Egypt. In long past generations, they new how to do a collective chebon nefesh on why the “korban” was necessary. such as for tach vatat. On churban Eropa, not so much. Today the Gedolim are saying we don’t know, we can’t know and we can’t ask questrions-throughout TaNach and Chazal
Any classical sources? It sounds odd. And to my little knowledge, there are classical sources to imply almost the reverse. But more specific, who gets to decide which incidents were specific to avoiding greater tragedy? Also, it means that someone who never met the departed is confidently telling the mourners, “this was a very lofty individual, you just totally did not realize until this very public tragedy”. Which just adds to the sense of having missed out on appreciating the shortened life of their son/Ibrother/husband. And it takes away some more privacy, in what is already a lot of exposure for a young mourning family.
First of all, Rashi in Chumash says it. On the pasuk (Bemidbar 20:1) …And Miriam died there… Rashi quotes the Gemara (Moed Katan 28a) and writes: Why is the demise of Miriam written aside the parasha of the red heifer (the parah adumah)? To teach us that just as korbanos bring forgiveness, so too does the demise of the righteous.
If you want more sources I will be happy to write them, however, the Maharal in Gur Aryeh, on that Rashi writes: אמנם עיקר דבר זה מה שמיתת צדיקים מכפרת הוא ידוע
Also, the Chasam Sofer writes (in Vayikra 16:1) – כי מיתת צדיקים בעצמו מכפרת מקופיא על הציבור כשרוב עונות גורם חלילה הקב”ה נוטל הרב שבהם ר”ל לכפר על הכלל וכעין כפרת פרה אדומהCertainly we never know exactly why Hashem does specific things, unless a Navi informs us, and we can never know if this specific tzaddik was taken away in order to be a korban or for other reasons.
It is just an expression of consolation to the mourner that possibly the deceased was a great tzaddik and was taken away in order to be a kapparah for Klal Yisroel.
The mourners who undoubtedly believe that the deceased was a worthy person, is given the feeling that he or she was even loftier than they had thought and is meant to make them feel proud and diminish their pain somewhat.I apologize.
I know you asked me not to fill you in, but since I am trying to explain the inyan to you, and you seem to really want to understand it, I felt that I must back up my words with the letter HaRav Shalom Cohen shlita wrote to all of the bereaved families.מרן ראש הישיבה חכם שלום כהן, שלח אף הוא אגרות תנחומים לבתי האבלים שיחי’, האגרת במלואה לפניכם
“על אלה אני בוכיה עיני עיני יורדה מים כי רחק ממני מנחם משיב נפשי…”בלב דואב וכואב על האסון הנורא אשר פקד את כל בית ישראל ביומא קדישא דהילולתא התנא האלוקי רבי שמעון בר יוחאי זיע”א על מ”ה קדושים וטהורים קרבנות ציבור אשר עלו בסערה השמימה בבואם לשפוך שיח ותחינה לפני קודשא ב”ה על הציון הק’ במירון.
There is a known quoted Rambam אשרי מי שכלו שנותיו מהרה. This world is a suffering, if not for improving ourselves and others. So. if someone satisfied his assignment in this world and gets his next world soon is beneficial for tbe niftar certainly not for those left behind. The Chasam Sofer explains that by Jews. it is first night than daytime but by the goyim is the reverse. By the Jews first this world then next world. First six days of work and then shabbos. When in comes to tbe tamid. mitzvos, the opposite is true. We can accomplish more in this world then the next, so it is first day then night.
Conflations aside, your source is not saying what you want it to pay. The tzaddik atones for the people on his/her passing. Much like they do when they are alive. In such an instance we would say the departed was a tzaddik, not a korbon.
It does not refer to the untimely passing of the young. Or the bewildering tragedy that just occurred. Using these term’s comes across as flippant, and does speak to the sub conscious realities.
Rashi is saying that the passing of tzaddikim atones for the people. As in every time. I have no idea why you would walk that back.
We have the free time to put things in perspective. But the families (as well as the survivors) may be overloaded between their internal sense of loss and the public portrayal of the larger tragedy. Comfort is found in accepting what happened. Adding on possibilities that a tragic, early death has cosmic implications, avoids what the life of the departed was like – and even more – could have been. It moves the focus of the personal greatness of each individual life to the overall placid and non descript merits-versus-sins of the masses.
nom – while I do NOT disagree with you, I do have to disagree about it not being a comforting thought to the mourners. I found it very comforting to think of the cosmic implications, spiritual value etc. But I still don’t think that it is something you should say to me during shiva. During shiva we want to be validated in our pain, and if you want to tell me why I should not be in pain, I don’t want to hear that. But to tell me that this loss is horrific for me, but possibly helpful for the good of klal yisroel, well that was very comforting. For me. There is just a time and place for it and I think shiva is about acknowledging the suffering of the loss.
You added “avoids what the life of the departed was like – and even more – could have been” It never occurs to me that there was a could have been. If Hashem took my sister at 17, there was no 18. there was no 19. I don’t think He invented a scenario of a future and then changed His mind.
<<<Disclaimer >>>
I MUST add that these are MY personal thoughts – oddly enough on this day of that sister’s 37th yahrtzeit. No two mourners are the same and all those people who write letters and books on what to say and what not to say to mourners are doing a disservice. I found some writings telling people not to say those very things that I would have loved to hear. Having sat shiva 3 times in 6 years does not make me an expert, ch”v, but I have learned that nobody should be so bold as to denounce someone for their comments without being absolutely sure that there isn’t a mourner who disagrees.Hashem took away Hanoch because he kept himself apart from others, so he would only hurt others by comparison to him.
מרן ראש הישיבה חכם שלום כהן, שלח אף הוא אגרות תנחומים לבתי האבלים שיחי’, האגרת במלואה לפניכם:
“על אלה אני בוכיה עיני עיני יורדה מים כי רחק ממני מנחם משיב נפשי…”
בלב דואב וכואב על האסון הנורא אשר פקד את כל בית ישראל ביומא קדישא דהילולתא התנא האלוקי רבי שמעון בר יוחאי זיע”א על מ”ה קדושים וטהורים קרבנות ציבור אשר עלו בסערה השמימה בבואם לשפוך שיח ותחינה לפני קודשא ב”ה על הציון הק’ במירון.Dear Syag,
Agreed. One does not have to be a great tzaddik, to invoke great benefit for the Jewish People. (Both ideas have their place.)
I’m bothered by the term korbonos. Rashi is comparing the effect of Miriam’s death to the effect of parah adumah. She is and was still Miriam.
Another point. How the public comes to terms with tragedy, is very different from those who experienced it personally.
Dear Reb Eliezer,
In that vein- his passing would not be an atonement for his generation. It would take away one of their few shining examples.
Did you read the Chasam Sofer I cited (I am assuming that you can read Hebrew)?
He clearly explains that it does not only apply to a Tzaddik’s natural death, but especially to taking him away before his time.The diamond lost is lost to the owner but the diamond is still a diamond wherever it is.
Today, Chacham Shalom Cohen shlita sent a letter of condolence to the believed families.
He referred to “the 45 kedoshim utehorim who ascended in a storm to Shamayim…”
sorry no outside linksIf the tzadik admonishes others, no, but if he is a tzadik in pelz, fur coat, for himself, he is taken away. Tzadik spreads around his rightousness as the letters indicate. tzafon, darom, yama, kedma – north, south, west and east.
RBZS. I think you mean bereaved.
As I mentioned before, it says גדולה מיתת צדיקים יותר מחרבן בית א-להינו the death of tzadikim r’l is greater than the destruction of the beis hamikdash. Their death stays with us the whole year whereas the destruction of the temple is remembered once a year.
Maybe what people are bothered here is a slight for the human tragedy in favor of a theological explanation. As in Yoma 23, where one Kohen stubs another while competing for a job, and the father of the dying one says – look, he is still alive, so if you take the knife out now, it will be tahor. Next question – did they take tahora very seriously, or did tey take murder too lightly? A similar question may be asked for someone using a korbon comparison – the speaker may be trying to elevate, but he runs a risk of sounding callous.
PS to conclude, this may depend on the status of both speaker and listener. If speaker can be assured that listener will understand him correctly, then he can say it.
Reb Eliezer,
How many people remember a death beyond a week , let alone a year unless the person had a connection to the gadol
RBZS,
You have no standing in telling how a parent/grandparent should feel on this kind of loss. You can only speak for yourself and hopefully you should never be in this situationYes, of course. Thank you.
Somehow, I left out the most important part.
Chacham Shalom Cohen wrote, ““the 45 kedoshim utehorim, KORBANOS TZIBBUR, who ascended in a storm to Shamayim…”Also, HaRav Edelstein shlita told the following story: The Chofetz Chaim had a son-in-law, a young man, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Levinson, and he died young. His daughter asked her father, why did he die, wasn’t he a tzaddik? The Chofetz Chaim told her: “There was a gezeirah on the dor and he atoned for the dor through his death! This is his zechus, he was mezakeh the dor through his death.”
Yes, of course. Bereaved. Thank you.
But somehow I left out the most important part.
Chacham Shalom Cohen shlita wrote the following: “the 45 kedoshim utehorim, KORBANOS TZIBBUR, who ascended in a storm to Shamayim…”
Also, HaRav Edelstein shlita related a story about the Chofetz Chaim: he had a son-in-law, a young man, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Levinson, and he died young. His daughter asked her father, why did he die, wasn’t he a tzaddik? The Chofetz Chaim told her: “There was a gezeirah on the dor and he atoned for the dor through his death! This is his zechus, he was mezakeh the dor through his death.”Dear Rbzs,
The part of the Chasam Sofer you posted, does not say that. I am interested in the rest, and hope to take a look at it today. Thanks.
I still very much doubt your point about tragedy occuring on the basis of averting a larger destruction. If you please source that one a bit better, that would be great!
To me, calling the departed a korbon, focuses on their last moments, instead of their life. When the public is also mourning, it could overtake the whole aftermath, and the mourners sort of lose connection with their loved ones’ life story. Magnifying the end, could minimize everything that came before it. Same feeling I have when I go to a shiva house, and hear a medical roundtable on some disease. Or a discussion of every instance of a demise similar to what had occurred in this family. I realize that there is a place for that also, but it seems off when it dominates the whole time. Also, Shiva houses, can get numb when they are forced to entertain for hours straight. I have seen great people go to comfort by sitting quietly until discussion becomes uncomfortable, to great effect. Okay, enough lecturing.
What really bothers me with calling a tragedy a korbon, is that is not the idea of korbonos. Should we all be granted the opportunity to bring a Todah, would we be thinking of these terrible events? Of course not! This sense of korbon, seems a bit pagan to me. As in Michah 6.
I don’t understand how you do not see what I wrote, in the words of the Chasam Sofer.
He said: כשרוב עונות גורם
חלילה, הקב”ה נוטל הרב שבהם ר”ל לכפר על הכלל וכעין כפרת פרה אדומה
“When there are a multitude of sins chalilah, Hashem takes the greatest of them Rl, in order to forgive the community like the redemption of the Parah Adumah.”ספר אמרי מנחם – פרשת אחרי
[ט] בפסיקתא זוטרתא (פרשה זו) למה נסמכה מיתת שני בני אהרן לפרשת יום הכיפורים, ללמדך שמיתת הצדיקים מכפרת כיום הכיפורים:
אולי יש לפרש הענין כי לפעמים יש קטרוג גדול על ישראל, ואי אפשר להשתיק אותו, אזי הצדיקים שבדור מעלים את הכלל ישראל לבחינת כתר, ששם אין הקטרוג שולט, כי הכתר הוא בחי’ אין, ובאין לא שייך שום קטרוג, וע”י ההתעלות אל בחינת כתר מדת אין מתבטלים שם הצדיקים ונפטרים מן העולם, וזהו הפי’ ‘מיתת צדיקים מכפרת כיום הכיפורים’, כי זו היא מדריגת יום הכיפורים, דביה אתגלי עתיקא קדישא לכפרא על חוביהון דכולא כדאיתא בזוה”ק (ח”ג סח ע”ב), היינו שע”י התגלות הכתר שהוא בחי’ אין מתבטלים כל החטאים והקטרוגים הבאים מחמתם:“To me, calling the departed a korbon, focuses on their last moments, instead of their life. ”
Quite the contrary. A person does not become worthy of being considered a korban tzibbur overnight.
It takes a lifetime of sincere devotion to come to that level.
Saying that the deceased was a korban, indicates that his entire life was extremely admirable.But, in any event, as I wrote in my very first entry, once we see that the Gedolim (Harav Cohen and HaRav Edelstein) used that term for consolation, we have no option to doubt that what they do or say is correct and proper. Although one may argue that it is ok for them to say, but perhaps not for us to.
When our best, tzadikim, is given back to Hashem and we accept this in stride, we show our love to Him and therefore our swaying away from Him is forgiven similar to a korban meaning closeness.
We discussed that point. I think it is silly. Like hey, “you may have known this person his whole life, but his death arbitrarily showed us how great he was. Shame on you for not realizing this while he was here. But it is great for me that the gezerah was fulfilled this way.” Really?!? And it does nothing toward actually remembering and appreciating what he was really like as a person. Let me check the Chasam Sofer.
What a fascinating discussion.
The purpose of nichum aveilim is not about the niftar, but about the oveil. If saying something lofty is praiseworthy to the niftar but painful to the aveilim, I suggest that this statement be avoided. That’s probably why the halacha is that the visitor being menachem should not initiate the conversation, but rather the oveil. This guides the interaction to be according to the wishes and desires of the oveil. Making a comment that the passing of the niftar was somehow positive is not appropriate at this time.
Lastly, we are all victims to the tendency to try and identify causes for the tragedy. This is shameful. Many gedolim specified that this was clearly a gezairoh, and we have no way to know why. The suggestions they offered for people to be mekabel on themselves are not repairs for the flaws that prompted the gezairoh, and most stated this clearly. To address causes during aveilus is misguided.
I don’t understand how you do not see in the Chasam Sofer’s words exactly what I wrote.
He said:
כשרוב עונות גורם חלילה הקב”ה נוטל הרב שבהם ר”ל לכפר על הכלל וכעין כפרת פרה אדומה
Which means: When the many sins cause [a tragedy] chalilah, Hashem takes the greatest one amongst them Rl, to forgive the community, just as the Parah Adumah does.Following is a Kabbalistic explanation of how this works:
ספר אמרי מנחם – פרשת אחרי
אולי יש לפרש הענין כי לפעמים יש קטרוג גדול על ישראל, ואי אפשר להשתיק אותו, אזי הצדיקים שבדור מעלים את הכלל ישראל לבחינת כתר, ששם אין הקטרוג שולט, כי הכתר הוא בחי’ אין, ובאין לא שייך שום קטרוג, וע”י ההתעלות אל בחינת כתר מדת אין מתבטלים שם הצדיקים ונפטרים מן העולם, וזהו הפי’ ‘מיתת צדיקים מכפרת כיום הכיפורים’, כי זו היא מדריגת יום הכיפורים, דביה אתגלי עתיקא קדישא לכפרא על חוביהון דכולא כדאיתא בזוה”ק (ח”ג סח ע”ב), היינו שע”י התגלות הכתר שהוא בחי’ אין מתבטלים כל החטאים והקטרוגים הבאים מחמתם:
However, I would like to clarify something. I am in no way advising anyone how to be menachem avel. It is a very difficult halachah to observe properly and it surely depends upon the individuals involved (the mourners and the comforters) and the situation and the timing and many other factors.
I joined this conversation because someone complained about the usage of the term korbanos by anyone, and, since I am aware of the fact that Gedolim do use that terminology, I objected to our opinionating ourselves.
As the conversation developed, I realized that some participants do not understand the concept at all and so I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to explain it.
G-d willing, may we never have to console anyone again.
Shabbat shalom and Chag sameiach.Reb Eliezer:
I’m sorry. The article you cited is nothing more than a photo op. Politicians do this all the time. It is sad that you consider Schumer to be sincere about anything but his political agenda. I know he is halachically Jewish, but he lacks any track record to be considered honest or trustworthy. He has made far too many booboos in his time that show he lacks the neshomoh he professes to have. He has proven to be a Democrat hack, and suffers from too many liberal views to be tolerable. I wish he would go away and abandon politics completely.
Why don’t you post my last submission from many hours ago?
I don’t understand how you do not see in the Chasam Sofer’s words exactly what I wrote.
He said:
כשרוב עונות גורם חלילה הקב”ה נוטל הרב שבהם ר”ל לכפר על הכלל וכעין כפרת פרה אדומה
Which means: When the many sins cause [a tragedy] chalilah, Hashem takes the greatest one amongst them Rl, to forgive the community, just as the Parah Adumah does.Following is a Kabbalistic explanation of how this works:
ספר אמרי מנחם – פרשת אחרי
אולי יש לפרש הענין כי לפעמים יש קטרוג גדול על ישראל, ואי אפשר להשתיק אותו, אזי הצדיקים שבדור מעלים את הכלל ישראל לבחינת כתר, ששם אין הקטרוג שולט, כי הכתר הוא בחי’ אין, ובאין לא שייך שום קטרוג, וע”י ההתעלות אל בחינת כתר מדת אין מתבטלים שם הצדיקים ונפטרים מן העולם, וזהו הפי’ ‘מיתת צדיקים מכפרת כיום הכיפורים’, כי זו היא מדריגת יום הכיפורים, דביה אתגלי עתיקא קדישא לכפרא על חוביהון דכולא כדאיתא בזוה”ק (ח”ג סח ע”ב), היינו שע”י התגלות הכתר שהוא בחי’ אין מתבטלים כל החטאים והקטרוגים הבאים מחמתם:
However, I would like to clarify something. I am in no way advising anyone how to be Menachem avel. It is a very difficult halachah to observe properly and it surely depends upon the individuals involved (the mourners and the comforters) and the situation and the timing and many other factors.
I joined this conversation because someone complained about the usage of the term korbanos by anyone, and, since I am aware of the fact that Gedolim do use that terminology, I objected to our opinionating ourselves.
As the conversation developed, I realized that some participants do not understand the concept at all and so I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to explain it.
G-d willing, may we never have to console anyone again.
Shabbat shalom and Chag sameiach.
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