May 21, 2021 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #1976063
should I let my kids listen to ben shapiro?May 21, 2021 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1976068MenoParticipant
Your kids have a chiyuv to listen to Ben Shapiro.May 21, 2021 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1976090se2015Participant
Memo, generally true, unless it’s an aveira to listen to Ben Shapiro. To avoid sfaikos, Ben Shapiro should tell his kids to listen to Ben Shapiro’s wife. Then they have to listen to him.May 21, 2021 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1976084ujmParticipant
You’d be much better off encouraging your kids to listen to Rav Chaim Kanievsky.May 22, 2021 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1976224
That depends on how much you value your kids’ getting only proper hashkafos.
While Mr. Shapiro speaks very well against liberal insanity, he is, nonetheless, not “daas Torah”, so there is no guarantee that everything he says will be in accordance with Daas Torah.May 23, 2021 1:23 am at 1:23 am #1976238tamParticipant
Additionally, no, because he uses foul language.May 23, 2021 1:24 am at 1:24 am #1976240justlookinginParticipant
I wouldn’t encourage anyone to waste their time listening to politics rather than making more constructive use of their time.
That aside, something to keep in mind is that unfortunately, Ben Shapiro quite often uses not-quite-proper language on his show.May 23, 2021 1:44 am at 1:44 am #1976264crazykanoiyParticipant
A show that is one sided and fails to present nuance and depth does not enhance chochmah. A show that features mocking of others does not lead to enhanced middos. Shows such as these have corrupted our youth with values that are foreign to Torah and Yiddeshkeit. If you care for your childrens chinuch teach them to listen and think and not mock others.May 23, 2021 7:12 am at 7:12 am #1976310
Ben, it depends on how old they are. He does sometimes quote words that might be considered improper that others use but he condemns them. I am now listening to such a broadcast and he bleeps out the bad words.
HaKatan, I don’t think that anyone will ask him for a pesak halacha. I would hope that no one would ask a rav about something that is in Shapiro’s field of expertise – unless, of course, the rav is also an expert in that field. I would ask, for example, Rabbi Israel Kirzner a question about economics but in his role as an economist, not a rav.May 23, 2021 7:12 am at 7:12 am #1976317
Correction: Rabbi Prof. (Emeritus) Israel KirznerMay 23, 2021 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1976398
What is Ben Shapiro’s ‘field of expertise’?
I’m not sure if familiar with his take on what he does, but he loathes calling it a science.
And, any classical Jewish leader is lifetimes ahead of Ben Shapiro on good advice in these areas.
But for sure we should only follow Rabbanim that discount anything public health experts say during a pandemic.May 23, 2021 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1976385user176Participant
If they are struggling with the topics that he deals with and their struggle will hinder their connection to Hashem than they should be given permission to listen with the warning that they will experience foul language and other midot that we do not agree with. If you’re listening already yourself just answe their questions yourself.May 23, 2021 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1976442commonsaychelParticipant
Frankly talk radio died with Imus, Rush and Bob Grant,May 23, 2021 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1976484☕️coffee addictParticipant
Mark levin isn’t good enough for you?
Why not?May 23, 2021 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1976577
commonsaychel I have seen you comment abt topics that you know nothing abt maybe you should stop making your commentsMay 23, 2021 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1976571
There is a tension here. If you expect your kid never to have contact with the general community, never plans to vote, never will stumble in a pandemic where he needs to understand the health direction – then he does not need to listen to anything political. Otherwise, there is a danger that he will be caught into some modern avoda zarah the way previous generation of Jewish kids were enticed by communism, etc. You may want to introduce him to politics with some background and your own views that help him develop a thoughtful approach.
One way: you start discussing political position connecting them with Jewish values on what is truth, hesed, respect for other people. etc.
A way for older kids: watch or listen together with him, discussing and commenting. better to listen to something that has opposite views. I tried radio debate between Obama and Romney. Kids did not like that Obama promised to hire 100,000 math teachers… With later debates, I chose video as faces showed more than words. Anyway, it is more important to teach the kid values of honesty and reasoning than simply convince him to despise a certain position that you hate. The latter would not give you a long-term vaccination effect.May 23, 2021 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #1976591commonsaychelParticipant
@Ben, your level of education is obvious from your comments, please invest in some ESL classes, other then that I am not going dignify your comments with a response.
*(run-on sentence; should be split into two)May 23, 2021 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1976605
Try the reverse. Political rhetoric is what gave society all the ills of the past year. Tell the kids to stay far away from politics. Most politicians have no idea what is good for the people they serve. The same goes for public figures that do not have an actual craft. Judges. Legislators. Mayors. Lawyers. Police. Askanim.
What pushes our kids into this garbage is the same as a hundred and two hundred years ago. They do not have enough exposure to Torah. It is hard to distinguish a personality like Ben Shapiro from Chaim Weizmann. Communism is no more of an avodah zarah than any political stance.May 23, 2021 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1976650
>> Tell the kids to stay far away from politics.
this is exactly what I said. If you think they can be in a totally isolated environment, then shoin …
My Rav likes quoting a Hasidishe Rav in 1920s Poland who would not let his daughter to the street [ina Hasidic neighborhood], as there was no way to escape the influence.
So, for those who will get exposure wither in college, or worksforce, or secondary via conversations with other people who have exposure, you need to guide them with Torah values. The person who asked here – obviously if his kid is asking about a radio, then he is exposed – even if he is not listening to the radio, he is talking to people who listen to the radio.
>> Communism is no more of an avodah zarah than any political stance.
Just a little more deadly to Jews and the world in general than many. And attracted a lot of Jews at a time. That is why I mention it. Chafetz Chaim’s daughter asked hom for a brocha to have children tzaddikim. He gave her a broach to have many children. She thought he misunderstood .. He said – we can’t guarantee in this generation …May 24, 2021 7:15 am at 7:15 am #1976696
The exposure level is irrelevant. Teach the kids the Mishna in Avos: the table that we teach Torah on, has more influence than the desk in the Oval Office. Any true Torah scholar is a positive influence on his surroundings. How many presidents can say that? Or billionaires? If he likes the radio tell him not to take it too seriously. The host is more interested in the listeners boosting the show’s ratings, than it’s content.May 24, 2021 7:17 am at 7:17 am #1976698
“Just a little more deadly…..”
The theories are all of the same nature. Note the pun. Tie silliness comes over the petty personal vendettas and the quest for political power. Which is pointless and could turn deadly. No difference between left or right.
I assume the story goes back to the OP. Nice story. Where did you pick it up?May 24, 2021 7:18 am at 7:18 am #1976699
Actually communism, with the atheism that comes with it, is much more of an Avoda Zara than any other political stance.May 24, 2021 9:01 am at 9:01 am #1976697
The point that others made about the nivul peh on some of his shows is a very valid one as well.
I think you missed my point because, unfortunately, modern-day Haskala, known as “Modern Orthodoxy”, does not ascribe the proper value to Hashkafa (and also not to Halacha, for that matter, but that’s a different point).
I specifically mentioned “proper hashkafos”, as in “hashkafa”, not “halakha” (as it is spelled in your world).
Hashkafa literally means outlook which includes, of course, how you think. Listening to Mr. Shapiro’s shows will almost certainly influence how you think. As mentioned above, he is not daas Torah and, of course, does not claim to be.
Therefore, if once cares about their kids’ hashkafos, they might want to reconsider allowing them to listen to his shows, as I mentioned.May 24, 2021 9:02 am at 9:02 am #1976809
Communism has the same theisms as the other systems. And they are as atheistic as much they allow for polytheism. In short, even political science does not encroach on core beliefs.May 24, 2021 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1976939TRUEBTParticipant
Unfortunately, this thread demonstrates the problem with political conversations. It generates Sinas Chinam and Lashon Hara. Ben Shapiro does make an effort to stick to the facts, but ultimately he gets dragged into the mud of improper speech with all the rest of the political commentators. If I were him, I would continue developing Daily Wire until after the 2024 elections and then sell it. I would switch to a profession that requires me to give my fellow man the benefit of the doubt as an act of tshuva.May 24, 2021 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1976942
Dear common saychel, I have seen based off of your comments that you really an illegal immigrant can you use google translate that is why your spelling, grammar, and punctuation doesn’t make sense by any chance do you work in a customer service DepartmentMay 24, 2021 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1976949
Halakhically, communism is currently different from roman paganism, because it is still being worshipped. So, visiting Ufizzi is easier than Karl Marx museum …
so, if we disregard the low culture of talk show, the question resolves to whether we need to expose kids to other cultures. I can quote here a definite psak from a choshuve Rav, who told the class that he is often gets shailos from college students whether they can attend a class on comparative religions. Students were interested – so that is the psak? Answer – depends on the student. For those who have a risk of being lured by some aspects of the discussed avodah zara, it is not recommended. For those, who expect to meet different types of people in their life and have a mind to address this, the class is recommended.
My post-covid commentary is that this has to be done with parents in the room, whether it is an academic class or a political debate where you can learn together and connect it to the Jewish values.May 24, 2021 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1976989
You can not connect it to Jewish or any other form of values, without taking out all that is valuable in it. Look how hollow Conservative Values and Liberal Values ring in today’s politics. What you end up with, is kids who have an abridged version of Torah. And use their energies to describe politics in the symbolism of their Torah. And they prattle on about being pro toeivah is worse than not following the moral code. And how we can never give our life to the study of Torah because then the government will shut down the yeshiva. And how the women can not be educated in Torah because then the men will have to have a higher standard. And following this rabbi but not this one. And how philosophical theories of history is avodah zarah.May 24, 2021 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #1977074
>> And use their energies to describe politics in the symbolism of their Torah
Maybe I am not being clear. I am not trying to prove from the Torah that politician A or B are right or wrong. I am trying to discuss with kids issues in society bringing Jewish views and comparing/contrasting with what they hear from politicians and friends. There is a lot of material on how to help poor, enable private enterprise, how to run public schools, etc. In addition, simple exercise in logic and fact checking to make sure they understand what they here. We do not go into toevot and other fringe issues, trying to focus on the issues central to society. This is enhanced, not abridged, version of Torah.May 25, 2021 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1977094
I seriously doubt that what you are saying is possible. Politics as it is practiced, shows little besides greed and self satisfaction.May 25, 2021 12:40 am at 12:40 am #1977098
Again, I am not trying to sell kids what a politician is saying, I am using political topics to disc uss how we approach this, and what it means:
Here is Bernie Sanders raging against billionaires .. let’s thing what it means .. what happens if you raise everyone’s taxes,, do we know of countries where they took everyone’s money and had Bernies in charge .. here is a Gemora how Talmidei Chachamim banned Yetzer Hara …May 25, 2021 8:06 am at 8:06 am #1977158
N0 and HaKatan, I disagree with you. A rav can give his hashkafa on some Torah issue (and there is no one “right” hashkafa = all are divrei Elokim chaim). However, he cannot give an opinion, for example, the 1619 Project, unless he has studied the relevant secular fields.
As for the topic at hand, The Netziv says *He’emek Devar Devarim 17:15) that the Torah leaves the political system to the people. Rav Chaim David haLevy , who was certainly a gadol as well, says that the Torah does not require any particular economic system
(במוצאי שנת השמטה: המשטר החברתי התורתי מול הקפיטליזם והסוציאליזם”, קול סיני ה, תשכ”ו, עמ’ 251-245). but leaves it up to the people to decide how to achieve goals. Certainly, neither Halacha nor Haskafa can be referenced to decide decisions of central banks, for example
Rambam says at he beginning of the Guide that one can and should learn how to think by
studying secular fields. He himself learned from non-Jewish thinkers. Accept the truth from whomever says it (intro. to Shemoneh Perkaim). Both Rabbenu Bachaya and the Gra say on the third chapter of Pirkei Avot that a person cannot be considered a sage if he does not know secular fields .May 25, 2021 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1977181
I assumed you meant that. And my response is no. Just no. Leave the kids to Torah.May 25, 2021 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1977193
n0, two comments:
1) what I mentioned _is_ Torah. Both in terms of learning how to think and in specific sugyot. Why wouldn’t you teach bein adam l’havero to your kids? You need to look wider sometimes. For example, I am connecting Radak on Elisha and the bears with trade unions.
2) to be clear, I don’t think there is one universal answer here, as I alluded before. Some people live in insulated communities. Even then, we may not appreciate how connected kids are now electronically. As with the virus, if you send a kid to a group setting for others to teach them, if they have no phone, friends or friends of friends have. But not everyone has such background. I am coming from families that had engineers and doctors for a number of generations. CTLawyer probably comes from lawyers on Mayflower. Rav Salanter’s son was a ship engineer, if I remember correctly. Rabban Gamliel had 1000 yungele learning Torah and 1000 – Greek. We are not all the same, and it is OK.May 26, 2021 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #1977793
Nothing in your recent reply seems to have addressed the concern I raised above regarding children potentially learning improper hashkafos.
It’s very possible that even an “Orthodox” Jew – especially one who spends his time on areas of *thought* that are outside of Torah – might have an improper hashkafa.
Therefore, you should not have your children (and possibly even yourself) listen to them because the children might absorb an improper hashkafa, and that could cause real spiritual damage R”L L”A.
I know this all sounds foreign to anyone who was educated with the poison of “Modern Orthodoxy”, but, as you wrote, accept the truth from whomever says it.May 26, 2021 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1977844
>> who was educated with the poison of “Modern Orthodoxy”
well, seems like you are listening to some inappropriate shows also, not sure why such flippant insulting of a broad swath of observant Jews is OK. Please clarify who allows that.May 26, 2021 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #1977845
I have never met anyone who is as serious about hashkafah as you just posted, who did not have gaping holes in his outlook. Relax! It is perfectly okay for people to think differently than the way that you prefer. There is no basis to the idea that the average yeshiva person can formulate a yeshiva hashkafah. Or that the yeshiva tradition is more accurate than any other. Or that there is not a serious lapse of truth in the yeshiva version of history. All groups are in the same boat on this. You can not monopolize deep thought processes. Somebody has to actually think then through.
Real spiritual growth and damage is dependant on actions. Yidden did not swarm to Reb Moshe and Reb Aaron because of their hashkafah. Most of those who went to them, knew little of what these two luminaries really thought. They were drawn to them by the sincerity of their noble actions. Observing them for a day is worth more than all the wisdom we can come up with.May 27, 2021 8:01 am at 8:01 am #1977976
HaKatan, you are really very funny. I am not aware that Shapiro has made pronouncements regarding Torah. He is a political commentator and addresses a general audience. Are you claiming that there is one correct political hashkafa? I have already brought sources to prove that this is not true. I have already asked the O.P. how old his children are and have yet to be answered. Obviously, these discussions are not for five-year olds. Probably they would find them very boring anyway.
BTW, how do you justify being in this venue and on the Internet in general? Aren’t you afraid that you might absorb incorrect hashkafot?May 27, 2021 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1978014
HaKatan, I just listened to the Ben Shapiro Show. It was an excellent piece on why he wears a kippa followed by a discussion of the problem of attacks on Jews in the US. He is obviously a fine, proud, observant Jew. You are obligated to contact him and ask forgiveness for being motzi shem ra on him.May 27, 2021 11:31 am at 11:31 am #1978058
Avi K – sorry Avi, I give HaKatan credit for having drastically adjusted his approach. This time around I have to say you are just picking a fight. Firstly, because this:
It’s very possible that even an “Orthodox” Jew – especially one who spends his time on areas of *thought* that are outside of Torah – might have an improper hashkafa.
is not motzei shem rah. It is warning someone what can happen when someone spends time on areas outside Torah. Not even sure how you can disagree with that.
Second, if you really could care less about the halacha aspect, his post is not the one you would have addressed.
At what age does color war end?May 28, 2021 9:50 am at 9:50 am #1978386
Syag, so we should not do anything but learn Torah? Bury our heads in the sand and live by shnorring? What do you consider an “improper” hashkafa? Should we not study science because we might believe that the Universe is billions of years old or that dinosaurs existed? Should we not listen to Shapiro because we might think that liberals are wrong? Maybe it will spur someone to investigate the terutzim and have a deeper knowledge of Torah. A person might even c”v find out that there are different hashkafic possibilities within Torah.May 28, 2021 10:20 am at 10:20 am #1978438
Avi K – Are you sure you are a lawyer? I called you out for accusing HaKatan of motzei shem rah out of hate for him/his view instead of his actual words. You forgot to respond to that. And the rest of your comment is just more of the same but at me this time.
Based on those comments I would have to conclude that you have no clue what a Torah framework is, if you believe you have to exit it in order to learn something without trop. If I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I will say that perhaps, tho you are older than I am, you missed the part of our education that encourages learning secular subjects WITHIN the torah framework, and your desire to believe that secular information can only be had by learning it outside of a torah framework is just a way to give yourself a free pass.
25 points for team blue.
I repeat, if it was the halacha you were defending, his post is not the one you would be calling out.May 28, 2021 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1978445hujuParticipant
I never bentsch for Janine Pirro. Her husband Albert was a convicted tax cheat, but she beat the rap.May 28, 2021 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1978473
Avi > so we should not do anything but learn Torah? Bury our heads in the sand and live by shnorring?
I think you are confounding several issues here:
1) studying professions to get a job. This might be a problem when it involves emerging in a secular culture. Seems to be less of a problem now, with Jewish colleges, night colleges, online education, CLEPS. There is a mitzva to teach a kid Torah and to teach him a job or a business so that he does not join listim. So, this seems to apply universally to everyone who is not independently wealthy.
2) studying science per se. I don’t think this ever was a problem. Tannaim were doing it, Rambam was doing it. Does not mean that everyone should be doing it, though.May 30, 2021 8:36 am at 8:36 am #1978743
1. No, I am not a lawyer. Maybe I should have been. In any case, HaKatan wrote
“It’s very possible that even an “Orthodox” Jew – especially one who spends his time on areas of *thought* that are outside of Torah – might have an improper hashkafa.
Therefore, you should not have your children (and possibly even yourself) listen to them because the children might absorb an improper hashkafa, and that could cause real spiritual damage R”L L”A.”
Okay, so he didn’t mention Shapiro by name. However, it is clear about whom he is talking.
2. I certainly do not hate him c”v. What is the difference between his view and his words?
I definitely hate hotzaat shem ra. The idea that we must build thick walls and not listen to the view of anybody but a rav (and usually the rav of the person advancing the claim) exasperates me. It is contrary to Chazal, who say that we can even believe that goyim have wisdom. It is contrary to Rambam, who advocates accepting the truth from whomever says it. It is also contrary to the famous statement that nobody died from a difficulty.
3. What is an “improper” hashkafa? Neither of you has defined it. Nor have you explained how listening to a political commentator, especially one who is an Orthodox Jew, can do this.
4. I will admit that not everyone has a head for science. However, everyone should study it at some level. How else can one truly appreciate Hashem and His Creation. Rambam says that it is necessary to learn Torah (how can one understand the sugya about a round sukka without the Pythagorean Theorem – which was discovered by an idolator?). See on this Rambam, Hilkhot Yesodei ha-Torah 2:2. The Semag even counts studying astronomy as one of the Taryag (Aseh 75).May 30, 2021 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1978831
Rav Twersky suggest studying physiology to appreciate Hashem’s vision. He says – you don’t have to do it in yeshiva, could do it at home. The way he says this last sentence off-hand makes it unclear to me whether this is a preferred way to do it at home, or is it his pre-buttal to those who would disagree with teaching science at school.May 30, 2021 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #1978836
Who is Rav Twersky?May 30, 2021 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1978846
Syag, I mean R Avraham Yehoshua Twersky Z’L, the psychologist. Thanks to your question, I revisited the story I thought I knew and it turns out more complicated:
Rav Twersky wrote to his mentor The Steipler in 1955 asking for his advice on choose a profession. I saw several sources descriving the letter a little different. Maybe someone has access to the published letters and can confirm. Most of below comes from seforimblog Feb 2021:
He asked wither whether he should go to medical school or a general question about a non-Rabbinical profession. The Steipler replied that medicine is preferred as it is a mitzva to learn it and is excluded from Rashba’s ban on secular knowledge. He suggested being stringent in – learn in depth at least two hours a day; attend all minyanim; go regularly to the mikva; be strict about Shabbos – not to read secular/science literature, learn musar daily.
There was a second letter, where R Twersky asked about his choice of being a Rabbi in low-observance community (and impact on his children) or being a doctor. The Steipler replied that rabbinate is preferred, but that R Twersky will become also become a successful physician (and it will make his observance even more challenging). R Twersky got from this that he went to be a doctor “with The Steipler’s blessing”.
modifiedMay 30, 2021 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1978856
So you mean Rabbi Twerski, with an i.
Can I assume you understand how drastically different your “quote” was from the truth? I mean in terms of what you had chosen to take out of it and then present here as his words/meaning?
I really hope so.May 30, 2021 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1978948ujmParticipant
The seforimblog isn’t reliable.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.