Black Hat Advice

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  • #597269

    bochur1818
    Participant

    I’m a teenager in high-school, living at home… I want to wear a Black Hat (at least on Shabbos), but my father doesn’t wear one. The problem is that my parents are more “modern” than I am and I’m not sure what to do. I’ve tried to bring it up, but they tell me that it’s silly. Any advice? Any specific points to bring up? Thanks!

    #775604

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Does your father have a rav he respects who might be able to explain it to him?

    #775605

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Question:

    Which one is the Dioraisa?

    Kibud Av

    Black Hat

    His father said no.

    #775606

    g73
    Member

    why do you want to wear a hat?

    #775607

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is no Halacha to wear a black hat, but there is a Halacha to honor ones parents.

    If you want to wear one in the future there will be plenty of time when you leave your parents house

    #775608

    Toi
    Participant

    Gimme a break where’s the lack of kibbud av if the inyan can be explained without getting in an “i’m frummer then you” fight. if you can sit down and have a discussion about it and explain it he’ll see it your way. if it does become a personal issue then drop it. when you’re a bit older and more experienced try again.

    #775609

    Pac / Man
    Member

    His father never said no.

    #775610

    I would say to speak to a Rav who can guide you in dealing with these types of thorny issues.

    I would also say that you should respectfully ask your father to be supportive of you as you navigate life trying to find your place in the Jewish world.

    #775611

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It shouldn’t be such a big deal to explain that you simply want to fit in with your crowd. He says it’s silly, but that’s for his crowd.

    I just wonder if you ‘Kibud Av’ guys would say the same if he wanted to wear a red tie. There’s something about ‘Frum’ that agitates people.

    #775612

    charliehall
    Participant

    If your father says “no” that is the end of it.

    That said, I think that the father should say “yes”. Plenty of modern orthodox RABBIS wear black hats on Shabat.

    #775613

    real-brisker
    Member

    lesschumras, zhavasdad – Why are you trying to discourage bouchr1818 from trying to do good? He is asking for a way to do it in a way that would be respectful, and wont be oiver on kibud av. Your posts definetly are not helping him out. He didn’t ask if or if not he should wear the hat, he is asking for HELP.

    #775614

    Why do you want to wear one? To identify with a certain group? To fit in? You could still be a good frum Jew without one. Ask a rabbi first….but there will be plenty of time when you are married and on your own to wear one.

    #775615

    shlishi
    Member

    I just wonder if you ‘Kibud Av’ guys would say the same if he wanted to wear a red tie. There’s something about ‘Frum’ that agitates people.

    Well said. Many in yelling kibud av here (where it doesn’t apply) would be saying let the kid be himself in the tie case.

    #775616

    shlishi
    Member

    That said, I think that the father should say “yes”. Plenty of modern orthodox RABBIS wear black hats on Shabat.

    Who cares about that? That is irrelevant.

    #775617

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    OP asked for advice

    And my advice was kibud av trumps anything else

    Getting along with your parents is very much helping him out

    #775618

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    real-brisker, I always wonder what “good” a black hat does.

    bochur, I think its important to sit down with your father and talk to him about why you want to wear one and why he wants you not to. Does he not like “uniforms”? Does he think its a waste of money? Does he think its just about the exterior?

    Its important to have open communication no matter what the outcome is.

    #775619

    yid.period
    Member

    and I’m just wondering what people would think if someone whose father does wear a blackhat, wanted to explain to his father why he (the son) did not.

    #775620

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    For those in favor of the Hat, lets say the roles were reverse and the Father insisted he wear the hat and the boy said it was Silly

    What would you recommend

    #775621

    charliehall
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    I would say that the boy should wear the hat if the father insists, but that the father should not have insisted.

    It is these kind of silly insistence of externals that drive people away from Judaism.

    #775622

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    A parent knows that he/she must choose the battles with any child. It would therefore depend on the child & his other issues.

    #775623

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    real-brisker, I always wonder what “good” a black hat does.

    It’s about association.

    bochur, I think its important to sit down with your father and talk to him about why you want to wear one and why he wants you not to. Does he not like “uniforms”? Does he think its a waste of money? Does he think its just about the exterior?

    Its important to have open communication no matter what the outcome is.

    Agreed.

    #775624

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    zahavasdad:

    I have a similar question. I want to go to work after I learn for 10 years, but my father wants me to only learn my whole life.

    He says there is no mitzva to work, but there is a mitzva of kibud av. (Assume I will be supported somehow). What should I do?

    #775625

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    For those in favor of the Hat, lets say the roles were reverse and the Father insisted he wear the hat and the boy said it was Silly

    What would you recommend

    You asked the question, you should answer first.

    #775626

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    <i> For those in favor of the Hat, lets say the roles were reverse and the Father insisted he wear the hat and the boy said it was Silly

    What would you recommend

    You asked the question, you should answer first. <i>

    Kibbud Av

    #775627

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    DY, association itself is not a positive or a negative.

    #775628

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Kibbud Av

    OK, now I’ll answer. If the father insisted that the son not wear it, I would not recommend wearing it. (However, in such a case, there are bound to be deeper issues.) If he merely felt it was silly, as the OP said, I would recommend trying to get the father to understand, in as mentchlich’e way as possible, that it’s not silly.

    #775629

    real-brisker
    Member

    SJS – Association in this case is a positive.

    #775630

    me too
    Member

    @am yisrael chai Did you really mean to use the word battles ??

    Wouldn’t issues have been the wiser choice?

    #775631

    real-brisker
    Member

    zahavasdad – I dont think the OP was asking for advice if he should wear a hat or not.

    #775632

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    Here’s how to italicize:

    <em>Zahava's Dad</em>

    results in:

    Zahava’s Dad

    #775633

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I dont think the OP was asking for advice if he should wear a hat or not.

    Not clear, but either way, zahavasdad has a right to give his opinion.

    #775634

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, association itself is not a positive or a negative.

    There’s no such thing as “association itself”; one is associating with something.

    #775635

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    wb- “choosing your battles” is a phrase in English & very accepted..

    & I hope you are not choosing to battle with me 🙂

    #775636

    me too
    Member

    ?”? One mis.. is one too much ??”?

    #775637

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Forget the hat. It’s only an external. Work on your midos, on your bein adam l’chavero (including kibud av v’eim), your kavanah in dovening, your learning and performing the mitzvos with joy. Those are the important things.

    Think about why you want the black hat. Is it because some of your rebbeim are pressuring you? Is it because some of your friends wear one? Or are there issues you have with Modern Orthodoxy that make you want to associate elsewhere? Be very clear with yourself why you want the change. Remember also, that as you get older you may change your mind, and it’s harder to take the hat off than never to put it on in the first place.

    There’s also a bottom line – when you’re older you can put the hat on whether your father agrees or not. Why start a fight with your own father when you can just wait a little and avoid it?

    #775638

    twisted
    Participant

    It wont be easy to find, but there are gray hats. And for yechidei segula, there are Western fedoras that come in just about every color. A quality westeren is certainly a hiddur in malbush shabbos and tefillah. Dont know how it would work with tefillin though.

    #775639

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Forget the hat. It’s only an external. Work on your midos, on your bein adam l’chavero (including kibud av v’eim), your kavanah in dovening, your learning and performing the mitzvos with joy.

    Why does one have to be at the expense of the other? For many, the former enhances the others.

    #775640

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    “Forget the hat. It’s only an external. Work on your midos, on your bein adam l’chavero (including kibud av v’eim), your kavanah in dovening, your learning and performing the mitzvos with joy.

    Why does one have to be at the expense of the other? For many, the former enhances the others.”

    Not for everyone. Especially for someone who may be at odds with his father over the issue.

    #775641

    Pac / Man
    Member

    His father didn’t say no.

    #775642

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    PM

    “I’ve tried to bring it up, but they tell me that it’s silly.”

    This definitely qualifies “someone who may be at odds with his father over the issue.”

    #775643

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    DY, it depends on what angle you are looking at it.

    For example, a gang member would look at rival gang members wearing their colors as a negative and wearing their own as a positive. That doesn’t mean its a positive or negative association. It just means its an association.

    If the father associates black hats negatively for whatever reason, then its not a positive. After all, its an external motion. There are way more important things to work on, whether or not bachur wants to associate as Yeshivish. He should make sure to brush up on his yinglish for instance 🙂

    #775644

    bochur1818
    Participant

    Thanks for the help. We associate ourselves with the “modern orthodox” community. However, many people in our community aren’t actually “modern orthodox”. Back to the hat, Rav Soloveitchik ZT”L from YU as well as the current Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Schachter, both wore hats as well. I don’t think it’s that far fetched. Unfortunately, there is a negative connotation with the hat due to how some people who wear it act. I agree totally with those who wrote about “Kibud Av”. It is, after-all a D’oraiysa, so it should be valued tremendously. The question I’m asking everyone though, is how to discuss it in a respectful way. What points/pointers should I bring up? How should I initiate the conversation, etc. THANKS!

    #775645

    am yisrael chai
    Participant

    SJSinNYC- u made me laugh at the screen 🙂

    #775646

    bochur1818
    Participant

    Second of all, I believe that the hat is more than merely association. It can help greatly with kavanah, connection, kavod Shabbos, etc. I want to have those feelings/experiences and I think the hat will help me with that. I know it sounds silly, but I really think it’s true.

    #775647

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    SJS,

    A gang association would be negative.

    An association with a group that believes in strong emphasis on learning, midos, and yiras shamayim is a positive association. (I’m not saying “black hatters” have an exclusive on these, but this is likely the association he is making.)

    I believe Abie Rotenberg calls it “Yeshivish’e Reid”. 🙂

    #775648

    real-brisker
    Member

    Bochur1818 – It does not sound silly to me.

    #775649

    bochur1818
    Participant

    Real-brisker: it appears silly because it’s exterior. also, for whatever reason it has a bad connotation. Anyone have any ideas for some “talking points”?

    #775650

    Toi
    Participant

    I’m not sure which derech you used to approach your father. you could try from the frum perspective and explain its value in ruchnius if you feel that your father will respond positively. if not since your a teen it may work to pull the individuality card. but as i wrote above don’t get heated over it

    #775651

    yid.period
    Member

    bochur1818

    perhaps there is another, more discreet way to enhance your kavanah and accomplish whatever it is you hope to accomplish by donning a blackhat? Perhaps a gartel, davening jacket or just a special beged katan? These often have less stigmas associated with them.

    #775652

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    These often have less stigmas…

    Unfortunately, there is a negative connotation with the hat due to how some people who wear it act.

    Huh?

    You have a negative view of people because they wear a hat?

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