Blaming the Same Gender Unions: A Personal Rant

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  • #607861
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    I have been going back and forth over the past 2 weeks as to whether or not to post. I decided over Shabbos that I should.

    For the past few months it has been bothering me tremendously when I see that frum people and even “Rabbis” blame major catastrophes on same gender unions.

    I couldn’t figure out why this was bothering me so much. At 1st I thought it was because, l’maaseh, they are doing it anyways, the only difference is whether the local government recognizes it or not.

    I dismissed this idea, as to acknowledge something like this gives it merit, and makes it okay in people’s eyes. Which isn’t a good thing.

    After some more thought, I thought I was bothered simply by these people thinking they were prophets, able to know how and why HKBH does things. Afterall the gemarra states that after Bayis Sheini was destroyed, the nevua was taken from the tzaddikim and given to the fools.

    I kept this idea for sometime, then I realized that, whilst this is true, this wasn’t what was getting me so upset.

    About 6 weeks ago I came to my 3rd conclusion. That it was disturbing me because those who said it were showing how they stopped thinking they were in galus.

    Why should yidden lose so much during hurricanes Sandy and Irene? Cause a group of goyim decided to pass some laws?!? I felt that the only type of person whom this made sense to was someone who forgot that they are living in galus, in a place run by goyim.

    What should have we have done? Gone out there and tried to educate the goyim? Teach them Torah values? please! show me where one needs to do such a thing. If anything we see to stay away from the goyim, lest they come to instill their views on us.

    I still believe my 3rd conclusion, (as well as all my previous ones) but I wasn’t yet satisfied. I still felt there was more to this feeling of disturbance “this type of blaming” was causing me.

    About 2-3 weeks ago, I finally figured it out. I now know what is bothering me.

    By blaming those who opt for their gender, we are basically saying “It isn’t my fault!” “There is nothing I need to change! I won’t change! I am perfect! IT WAS THEIR FAULT!!”

    What a crying shame. These tragedies are supposed to awaken Klal Yisroel to be better. But why blame our Kavod HaTfila, Tznius, Tzeddaka, Hachnasas Orchim, Lashon Hara etc.? Let’s just blame the “others” and make ourselves feel good and righteous.

    What happened during hurricane sandy was a tragedy. But the hurricane was nothing compared to the scope of the tragedy that is the many of us who are choosing to ignore these warnings from above, to do better, to be better, instead opting to blame others, whilst being satisfied with our current status-quo.

    It took me a few months of cheshbon hanefesh, but I finally found what is truly bothering me.

    #927537

    Sorry, the gedolim indeed are quite capable of telling us Action X caused Tragedy Y.

    #927538
    akuperma
    Participant

    1. Very little changed as “same gender” relationships have been legalized for almost a generation (and in most states, including ones most Jews live in, well before that). The only changes pertain to economic aspects of such relationships. “Same sex marriage” is against Torah – filing a joint tax return for two people of the same gender who maintain a common household is irrelevants from a halachic perspective.

    2. Contrary to propaganda, there are very few “gays.” Almost all people are “straight” (i.e. hetereosexual). A “gay” species would quickly go extinct. The biggest and most perverse changes in western law, especially in terms of the number of people affected, pertained to liberalizing divorce to the point when marriage became nothing more than temporary partnership, and perhaps most importantly, legalizing extra-marital you know what (by repealing the laws against what had been in the statute books as the crimes of adultery and fornication). These changes occured gradually between the mid-19th century and late 20th century, but are well accepted, and probably more devasting, and more objectionable from a Torah perspective.

    #927539

    ???”? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?

    #927540
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I hear what you are saying, but the truth is that theodicy is a very big part of our belief system, as evident even in Shema- there is schar v’ onesh.

    Part of the “public policy” that G-d expects of the world, as evident in the Noahide Laws, is the issur against homosexual sex.

    When we have the audacity to honor and officially recognize these illicit relationships, we are declaring war against G-d, Morality, and His Truth. B”H that religious G-d fearing Christians realize this in our country.

    I am extremely put off by efforts of some in the Modern Orthodox camp, including those I greatly respect, to acknowledge these lifestyles and liberal movements.

    One MO rabbi, in St. Louis, IIRC, said he’d have a cake at a kiddush in honor of a same-sex “marriage.” Another in Maine (R’ Akiva Herzfeld) involved himself in an effort to secure the legalization of such an abomination in that state. Where is the outrage?

    The lesson to be taken from the mabul and from Rosh HaShanah davening is that HaShem cares about and judges the world. All people are precious to him; when people attempt to usurp the natural order and Morality by sanctioning this kind of filth, they are bringing judgment upon themselves.

    Any understanding of the Noahide Laws can only lead us to the conclusions reached by R’ David Novak- Hazal understood that Noahide Laws institute a pubic policy for the world that Jews are obligated to advance in their intellectual and political and social life. For anyone to rally for anything contrary to this simple truth is a shame.

    #927541
    Health
    Participant

    JayMatt19 -“By blaming those who opt for their gender, we are basically saying “It isn’t my fault!” “There is nothing I need to change! I won’t change! I am perfect! IT WAS THEIR FAULT!!””

    While I can’t speak for others, I can speak for myself. I’m one of those who are very vocal against Toeivaniks. My intrepretation of current events was never to diminish working on ourselves, but I think the avg. Frum person doesn’t realize what danger these Toeivaniks are to the Country and even to Frum people. I remember a day when there wasn’t such a thing as AIDS. And you probably remember a day when there wasn’t such a thing as Gay marriage.

    Forget about the millions of lost lives due to Toeivaniks (AIDS), how could “Frum” Jews vote for politicians that believe in their agenda? Do you know that there are people who were Frum, but because of these Toeivaniks coming out of the closet and them being exposed to them and their teachings, which some State colleges require, that they have left Yiddishkeit?

    So this isn’t just about how bad Goyim are and we are perfect, like you claim, which none of us ever said, but the fact that Frum Jews have Not been vocal enough against these people and have Not voted against these politicians who vote the Toeivah agenda, is what bothers me and many others!

    #927542
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    When you open a thread half expecting to read about feminist bus drivers on strike, you know the bowdlerization has gone too far…(haifagirl, am I right?)

    #927543
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    @The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite – Wasn’t talking about gedolim, was talking about posters on frum sites, and the “Rabbi”no one ever heard of before who came out and blamed Sandy on the “toeva crowd”.

    You will note that the real gedolim blamed things which are within our power to control

    @akuperma – I dealt with your point in my 1st attempt my issue. Yes it was legal and around. But by the gov’t giving it legitimacy it makes it more ok in people’s eyes

    @Healrh “So this isn’t just about how bad Goyim are and we are perfect, like you claim, which none of us ever said, but the fact that Frum Jews have Not been vocal enough against these people and have Not voted against these politicians who vote the Toeivah agenda, is what bothers me and many others! “

    This was directly addressed in my 3rd attempt. Who should we be vocal to? The goyim? It is the job of a yid to educate a goy? Since when? It has always been our duty to separate ourselves form them and their mores, and for good reason. Additionally, there is no way you can claim statistically that if every frum jew voted against, then the STATE ELECTION would have turned out differently.

    Please provide me with a proof of such a chiuv to go out and educate the goyim. Also please provide a proof that a yid can get punished due to the actions of a goy.

    I dont believe that either exist

    #927544
    rebdoniel
    Member

    The sad truth is that you have institutions like Beis Yaacov inviting openly gay leaders like Christine Quinn to address their student populations. It is high time we listen to the likes of R’ Avigdor Miller, zatsal, and his talmid, R’ Yehuda Levin, and urge our mosdos to stop sacrificing Torah values for money.

    If the Briskers and others are principled enough to not accept money from those they believe are wrong (Zionists), kal v’chomer, how much more must Torah Jews be vigilant in not accepting funds from those who seek to corrupt society in dramatic ways and bring us down the road of the Greeks and Romans.

    If I may so have reshus from the moderators, I saw the following on Matzav: http://matzav.com/follow-up-the-danger-of-yct-and-its-extreme-left-wing-agenda#comments Apparently, YCT is advocating that we embrace gay couples who otherwise keep shabbos, kashrus, etc.

    They were addressed by a rav from Tel Aviv who lead the Yakar shul, where he allowed a lesbian couple to have a kiddush in honor of their adopting a baby. He lamented in his shiur that many congregants left over this. (I wonder why).

    It was obvious to me even years before I became frum that homosexuality was wrong and certainly nothing to be embraced. Anyone who believes that this is something to celebrate, whether at the polls, or at a shul kiddush, cannot logically claim to follow the Torah. There is a broader spirit to the law, so to speak, which I see many on the left ignoring when they advocate for the public acceptance of homosexuality and the erosion of gender differences, etc.

    Where is the outrage?

    #927545
    147
    Participant

    The way I heard it {not that I have nor claim to have Ruach Nevu’oh}, Irene transpired shortly after same gender marriage became legalized in NY State, whereas Sandy transpired shortly after NYC began obliterating [or should I say, attempting to obliterate] MBP.

    Same gender marriage being all of NY State, the worst of Irene struck in Upper NY State, whereas MBP being a NYC Health Department Attack, Sandy struck NYC very badly.

    #927546
    anon1m0us
    Participant
    #927547
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Ok

    Lets clarify something.

    The Gemora in Meseches Chullin Daf Tzaddik Beis Amud Beis right at the top of the Amud states that one of the “Zchusim” that the umos hoilam have is that they do not write marital contracts for “mishkav zochur.

    Rashi explains that is even though they actually have such unions still they do not go so far as officially issue marital contracts for them.

    So the Gemora first off states clearly that the lack of “Same gender marriage recognition is one of those things which provides “zchus kiyum” and the Gemora according to Rashi clearly states that even if it is being done any way it is still far worse to officially recognize it.

    Now that We know the Chazal’s views on the matter I am sure we can stop saying “well they are doing it anyway”.

    #927548
    sushee
    Member

    The Gemorah tells us that the reason that the goyim are not destroyed is because they don’t officially recognize toeiva “marriage”.

    If the Gemorah cared enough about this, even though it is regarding the goyim, we too ought to care about it.

    #927549
    MorahRach
    Member

    Same sex marriage became legal in July 2011 , not right before hurricane sandy at all.

    I have thought about this a lot and wondered the same thing, but the fact is we can’t ever know. We should always be working on ourselves no matter what is going on.

    I am shocked that someone here wrote that a bais yaakov invited Christine Quinn to speak. I am nauseated! What is happening in our culture? My husband and I were at a Friday night shabbos meal recently and politics as always came up. This one guy ( modern but shabbos observant kashrus observant grew up going o yeshiva day schools, said that he was ” fiscally conservative but socially very liberal”. I knew what this meant but my husband had to start up with him because he can’t understand how a person can be in favor or toeiva marriage but keep Hashem’s Mitzvos. I once said to someone that you can’t possibly consider yourself a Torah observer if you are in favor of gay marriage. I have literally lost friendships over my views because so many frum and modern Jews now think ok it’s 2012/2013 let’s get wih the times gay marriage isn’t what is used to be.

    #927550
    Health
    Participant

    JM -“This was directly addressed in my 3rd attempt. Who should we be vocal to? The goyim? It is the job of a yid to educate a goy? Since when? It has always been our duty to separate ourselves form them and their mores, and for good reason. Additionally, there is no way you can claim statistically that if every frum jew voted against, then the STATE ELECTION would have turned out differently.

    Please provide me with a proof of such a chiuv to go out and educate the goyim. Also please provide a proof that a yid can get punished due to the actions of a goy.

    I dont believe that either exist”

    You totally missed my point. I Did Not say go out and educate Goyim, but if you can have power over them -why not stop their Toeiva? And as far as elected officials are concerned, do you really think that the guy running the NY assembly, a “Frum” Jew who’s pro- Toeiva agenda, was really put their by Goyim?!?!

    Get your head out of the sand.

    “For the past few months it has been bothering me tremendously when I see that frum people and even “Rabbis” blame major catastrophes on same gender unions.”

    I’m actually amazed that you wasted months broiling that Frum Jews had the “Chutzpah” to call out Toeivaniks with regarding Sandy.

    “Let’s just blame the “others” and make ourselves feel good and righteous.”

    Why don’t you practice what you preach? You had nothing else to do all these months but simmer about this? You have nothing that YOU have to work on – that you have to call us out about our beliefs?

    #927551
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    FYI

    Hurricane Sandy actually direct hit NJ not NY. Only the edges hit NY.

    It make landfall around Atlantic City.

    #927552
    rebdoniel
    Member

    That guy, Morah Rach, lacks a Torah perspective on the world.

    There is a difference between having the letter of the law and the spirit of the law; you need both. To keep kosher but advocate for social policies which G-d finds repugnant demonstrates a lack of religious integrity.

    #927553
    WIY
    Member

    Very few Rabbanim said it was due to same gender marriage.

    #927554
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    I just read something interesting: In countries where polygamy is legal, marriage for gays is illegal. In countries where same-sex marriage is legal, polygamy is illegal.

    I wonder why this is so? I am not looking at this from a Torah perspective. But for people who state the same gender marriage should be allowed because of love and freedom of choice, why would they prohibit polygamy?

    #927555
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    What does “It make landfall around Atlantic City.”(sic) have to do with the topic at hand?

    #927556
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I don’t remember where I saw it, but I once learned that gay marriage is a distortion of the way nature is supposed to be. When this becomes commonplace and recognized as legitimate, it causes the derech hatevah that Hashem set up to change. So yes, it can be that gay marriage causes more storms, earthquakes, etc.

    Do I know 100% for sure that it caused it? No, but I know it’s a possibility. As for it being our fault, it might be. I did write to my representatives urging them not to support it. I guess I could have done more.

    We need to show that we will not support it no matter what, and no matter what other things these people do, as good as it may be. When Bloomberg was trying to get support in NY for it, Agudas Yisrael honored him at their dinner, for all his help funding yeshivos. This must stop! If someone supports it, do not show any honor towards them! Hashem will get us the money we need, but we need to show our opposition to such groups.

    #927557
    rt
    Participant

    I once saw Rav Shlomo Brevda z’tl quoted:

    Talmud Torah kneged kulam- vadai

    davening with kavnah- vadai

    why H’ brings natural disasters- safeik

    #927558
    HaKatan
    Participant

    rebdoniel, I enjoyed your posts on this thread. Thanks.

    #927559
    Health
    Participant

    anon1m0us -“I wonder why this is so? I am not looking at this from a Torah perspective. But for people who state the same gender marriage should be allowed because of love and freedom of choice, why would they prohibit polygamy?”

    I don’t know why, but I can guess. The Goyim know they are rebelling against G-d and deep down their conscience is bothering them – so to alleviate their guilty feelings they outlaw polygamy instead of Toeiva.

    As a side point, from todays news, Russia is poised to make some Anti- Gay law. Good for them and this shows Goyim can be convinced against this abomination. The Russian Gov. was pressured by the Greek-Orthodox religion.

    #927560
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Health: I have to disagree because I do not think they are religious enough to take g-d into consideration. To them its a “natural” think so why restrict it. One can make the same argument with polygamy, so why do they outlaw it?

    #927561
    Health
    Participant

    anon1m0us – You’re wrong. Most Americans believe in G-d. I think the % was like 85 -90. So they feel guilty that they are meek and don’t stand up to the Militant Toeivaniks and let their politicians vote for their agenda.

    By outlawing polygamy -they are able to lie to themselves that they are moral people, even though they allow Toeivaniks and abortions.

    #927562
    yytz
    Participant

    I’m not in favor of toeiva marriage. But personally I could care less whether my friends and family are. We have 613 mitzvos and Chazal were very detailed in explaining the kinds of middos we should strive for. But nowhere is there a mitzvah or virtue in having the correct political opinion, or convincing others that they’re wrong and we’re right!

    It is, however, extremely important to be humble, treat others with kindness, and judge one another favorably. Yet when people are convinced their political opinion is correct, they become very arrogant, are rude to others, and vociferously denounce others who dare to have a different opinion. This is not the Torah way.

    Of course, it is in general good to be well-informed and vote for the person we think is best — and I certainly believe in doing that. But let’s say someone never read the news, knew zero about politics, and never voted, but instead spent their time on Torah and mitzvos. Have they sinned? What have they done wrong? A single individual opinion (or vote for that matter) makes little or no difference. If King Shlomo was alive today, surely the updated Koheles would talk about how political discussions are vanity and nothingness and a distraction from our true task in this world.

    I’ve only lost one friendship based on political opinion. It was somebody who couldn’t stop angrily rambling about 9/11 conspiracy theories and other nonsense. If he had been able to keep his mouth shut and talk to me about things we had in common, then I would’ve stayed friends.

    #927563
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If Christine Quinn becomes mayor, Should the communmity become hostile towards her?

    We will likley need her support on many issues and acting hostile will not get you what you want or even worse, direct obstuction from her.

    #927564

    America has had anti-sodomy laws on the books that punished people for simply engaging in toeiva relations. (Forget marriage and all.) It only was struck down a mere 9 years ago by an activist Supreme Court. Hopefully with a turnover of justices that decision will be reversed and sodomy will be outlawed again. In the past some States had long prison sentences for a sodomy conviction, but hopefully in the next set of laws they’ll actually have a death penalty for it.

    #927565
    Health
    Participant

    yytz -“I’m not in favor of toeiva marriage. But personally I could care less whether my friends and family are. We have 613 mitzvos and Chazal were very detailed in explaining the kinds of middos we should strive for. But nowhere is there a mitzvah or virtue in having the correct political opinion, or convincing others that they’re wrong and we’re right!”

    It is – if you can influence them and the political opinion is against the Torah, like here. Ever hear of Tocheiach Es Amesecha?

    “It is, however, extremely important to be humble, treat others with kindness, and judge one another favorably. Yet when people are convinced their political opinion is correct, they become very arrogant, are rude to others, and vociferously denounce others who dare to have a different opinion. This is not the Torah way.”

    Yes, this is the best way to give Mussar, but sometimes when s/o else is doing something wrong you have to scream even if noone is listening. Why? Because this is called making a Machoh! There are many reasons why people have to make Machohs about things, which I won’t get into now. People screaming about Toeiva are making Machohs!

    #927566

    I wrote a topic about exactly the same issue a few months ago. I fully agree.

    This whole idea of “xxxx is caused by xxxx” is not befitting us. It is the way of the Muslims (“The Jews/Zionists caused the earthquake in Iran / the tsunami in Indonesia”) or the Christians (“AIDS is a punishment for using contraception”).

    Our faith should be a little bit above such ridiculous nonsense. We do not know why things happen. All we need to do is believe in Hashem and do our jobs and live our lives.

    Also this whole type of reasoning bothers me because it’s just so negative. Why does everything have to be negative? Why do some people have to base their yiddishkeit on OPPOSING everything and everyone they don’t like? Just live your life and let others live theirs.

    #927567
    Curiosity
    Participant

    I thought I read once that the mabul only happened after people started giving eachother shtaros for toeva marriages.

    #927568

    TCG: You are dead wrong. This has always been the way of the Torah and Klal Yisroel. See ???”? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?.

    #927569
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I don’t get people keep stating what they beleive the Torah Veiw is.

    Yet a Gemora was quoted, the exact page was given, stating clearly.

    1) One of the things that provide a “Zchus Kiyum” for the Umos HaOlam is the lack of recognition of same gender relations.

    2) Rashi explains that this Gemorah is stating that this is even though in private they engaged in such actions.

    So anyone who states that it makes no difference to us what the “recognition” on the books is since they are doing it in private anyway is arguring on the way Rashi eexplains a Gemorah.

    Anyone who sates that recognition of same gender marriage by the umos haolam cannot have led to widespread destruction is similarly arguing on said Gemorah.

    To state that feeling that there may be a connection between the recognition of same gender marriage and the destruction that took place afterwards is not the way of the Torah is a feeling that is not in line with Chazal’s understanding of the Torah since again a Gemorah was qouted and explained where just that is done.

    #927570
    yytz
    Participant

    Health: Well, if they think there’s nothing wrong with toeivah and the Torah is wrong to prohibit it, then I’d see what you’re saying. But if it’s only a political opinion, it’s not that important.

    Anyway, who knows why they hold it — maybe they think the best way to mekarev secular Jews is to pick our battles and only fight for Torah to be translated into policy when it would help us with kiruv? The fact that there are frum Jews who approve of toeivah marriage may be confusing but perhaps it’s a great kindness from Hashem. If such people didn’t exist, many secular Jews would never consider making teshuvah! That’s how strong the hold of liberalism is on some Jews — and with liberals in general, they are absolutely closed to any argument against toeivah marriage. And many people stay very liberal after becoming BTs.

    I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to influence people to have what we consider a more correct political opinion on some matter, if we think we can do so without transgressing (by looking down on others, hating them in our hearts, getting angry, saying something hurtful, bearing a grudge, etc.). I occasionally argue about politics even here.

    But I don’t see why people get so worked up about it — it really makes no practical difference what a single person’s political opinions are. What matters is each individual’s Torah and mitzvos and middos and maasim tovim. Anyway, if I couldn’t stand it when people disagreed with me, then I’d hate everybody and never vote for anybody (since I agree with Republicans on Israel, toeivah and euthanasia, with Libertarians on foreign policy, and with progressive Democrats on most everything else.)

    #927571
    yytz
    Participant

    Ben Levi, that’s interesting and I see what you’re saying, but not every line in the Gemara has halachic significance. A person approving of toeivah marriage in secular law is misguided, and certainly they should learn this Gemara and its commentaries, but are they transgressing? They’re just an individual with an opinion, which has no effect on the government. What if there’s a totally unrelated mitzvah they’re not fulfilling? Then shouldn’t we focus on that, if we’re trying to influence them?

    #927572

    Every line in the Gemorah does have significance.

    And we ought to fight against the legal institution of toeiva “rights”; be it so-called “marriage”, be it civil unions, or be it acceptance.

    #927573
    Health
    Participant

    yytz -“A person approving of toeivah marriage in secular law is misguided, and certainly they should learn this Gemara and its commentaries, but are they transgressing? They’re just an individual with an opinion, which has no effect on the government.”

    They are trangressing. It’s called Messiyah L’dey Aveira.

    And why do you think this doesn’t effect our politicians/Gov.?

    You don’t think the “Frum” guy from the East Side wouldn’t have brought the Toeiva agenda to a vote if he knew his constituents would have him recalled?

    Most Jews in America, even the Frum ones, want to be PC. PC is fine as long as it isn’t against Torah. This topic isn’t the time to be PC.

    And why don’t you look up the news about Russia that I mentioned above? I’m amazed. You can have a big Goyishe country as Russia and still most of them believe in doing the right thing, at least when it comes to Toeiva.

    #927574
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    1) One of the things that provide a “Zchus Kiyum” for the Umos HaOlam is the lack of recognition of same gender relations.

    2) Rashi explains that this Gemorah is stating that this is even though in private they engaged in such actions.

    To state that feeling that there may be a connection between the recognition of same gender marriage and the destruction that took place afterwards is not the way of the Torah is a feeling that is not in line with Chazal’s understanding of the Torah since again a Gemorah was qouted and explained where just that is done.

    @Ben Levi

    1st of all, in that Gemarra you quote, R’ Yehuda is arguing on Ulla (the opinion you quote).

    Secondly, according to Ulla, who says the yidden get punished due to the actions of the goyim?

    How many yidden lost their homes?

    How many yidden lost their lives? (at least 2 that I know if during Irene)

    How many yeshivas suffered major damage?

    How many hours and days of limud torah were lost?

    How many kollel yungerleit in Lakewood had flooding and no power for days if not over a week?

    How many TONS of seforim became shaymus because of damage from the hurricane?

    Because Goyim decided to recognize these unions the yidden got punished?

    Yidden dont get punished due to the actions of the goyim.

    #927575

    Why, then, does the gemora tell us the goyim will be punished for recognizing such a marriage, if we shouldn’t care?

    The Jewish beis din was deputized to enforce the sheva mitzvos bnei noach. Clearly, we care, as we should.

    #927576
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Tlky

    What did I ask and what did you answer?

    #927577
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Jewish beis din was deputized to enforce the sheva mitzvos bnei noach. Clearly, we care, as we should.

    There is no jewish Bais din authorized to enforced laws in the US

    #927578
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The Chassidishe Gatesheader: We do know in some cases that X can cause Y. For example, the Mishna Brurah says that talking during chazaras Hashatz causes shuls to be destroyed. We know that doing kibbud av v’em properly leads to long life. Where we have a source for something, there’s nothign wrong with relying on it.

    It’s when people make up things (like when people blame things on a lack of tznius these days) that it becomes a problem. But as I wrote above, I believe there is a source that says homosexuality causes nature to go haywire.

    #927579
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    They are trangressing. It’s called Messiyah L’dey Aveira.

    And why do you think this doesn’t effect our politicians/Gov.?

    You don’t think the “Frum” guy from the East Side wouldn’t have brought the Toeiva agenda to a vote if he knew his constituents would have him recalled?

    Unfortunately, certain grandchildren of Gedolim have decided that Money is more important than scruples. Baruch Hashem the Olam decided correctly not to listen to these people.

    Rav Avigdor Miller predicted this would happen. We are losing our way becuse we ourselves have destroyed what the Torah says a family should be, with Bungalows, Separate vacations, and other excuses for the man not to be the breadwinner and King of the home.

    #927580
    sushee
    Member

    The Chofetz Chaim, among many others, said the lack of tznius causes many tragedies.

    #927581
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    anon1m0us,

    Because they feel it is unfair to the second wives to have competition (called tzarah by Chaza”l).

    They believe in bein adam l’chaveiro, not bein adam laMakom.

    #927582
    yytz
    Participant

    JayMatt has a good point. When bad things happen to non-Jews after they approve toeivah marriage, then it’s possible that they’re being punished for that. But to the extent that a tragedy effects Jews, we need to do teshuvah and figure out, on an individual and communal level, what we need to rectify! That’s the way it has always been. When something bad happens to Jews, we do teshuvah! (Maybe even when bad things happen to others. When the Chofetz Chaim heard about an earthquake in Asia, he responded that we need to do teshuvah.)

    So when something bad happens to us and we blame non-Jews, that’s not the right response. The Gemara says that even if someone puts their hand in their pocket and takes out the wrong coin, that is a tribulation that was caused by the person’s transgression. Surely if someone was harmed by a natural disaster, the same is true.

    Yoelite: It’s not that we shouldn’t care — what I’m saying is that another frum Jew’s individual political opinion is just not that important in the scheme of things. I was reacting to people saying they were breaking off friendships with fellow frum Jews because they approved of toeivah marriage, and suffering anguish thinking about how awful it is that there are some frum Jews who don’t oppose it. We should be happy they are frum.

    So people have contradictory political opinions — OK, everyone has their own issues and challenges. Hashem made us all different, and He does everything for the good. If someone is talking during davening or speaking lashon hara or getting angry all the time I would be a lot more worried about that (that is, actual mitzvos and middos) than about their political opinion on toeivah marriage, Israel or anything else.

    #927584
    Health
    Participant

    yytz -“But to the extent that a tragedy effects Jews, we need to do teshuvah and figure out, on an individual and communal level, what we need to rectify! That’s the way it has always been. When something bad happens to Jews, we do teshuvah!”

    And why can’t it be that one of the reasons of these weather tragedies is that Jews have Not done enough to stop Toeiva in this country? Esp. if they can make a difference in who wins elections. I already pointed out to you a specific case where Jews pick the State Assemblyman.

    #927585
    Toi
    Participant

    wow. people are really defending something Hashem hates. this is unbelievable.

    #927586
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    JayMatt,

    Actually the Gemora is not arguing as to whether the yesod is correct the arguement (if there is one) is whether that is what is being referred to in the case at hand.

    As for destruction, My point was not to state that Mishkav Zuchor is the reason what occured, I have no nevua, nor am I from the Gedolei HaDor.

    I was merely pointing out,

    1) If someone would state such a thing there are Talmudical Sources for it

    2) there is something wrong with official recognition even in cases where one knows that it is going regardless as to whether it is recognized or not.

    As to yytz points about “political opinion”.

    The question at hand is not a theoretical opinion.

    10 years ago you may have been correct as the personal opinions of the Politicians maid no difference.

    Now-a-days that is not the case, in many cases voting for certain politicians means that the person is directly causing an action that is despicable and can lead to destruction.

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