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I said earlier that I could care less about my family and friend’s political opinion on this issue, but now I realize there’s an exception to that. If my own kids were pro-toeiva marriage I would be a little worried that it would make them more likely to act on any desires for toeiva that they ever might have, c”v’s, and then end up going OTD. May Hashem save us from such situations! Adults who are already frum, though, I’m not so worried about.
Actually, the toeiva marriage issue is one of the only things that kind of makes me want to make aliyah. Sure, the far-left in Israel is just as pro-toeiva as the liberals here. But at least in Israel we wouldn’t have the prime minister talking about toeiva “liberation” or whatever in every speech, as we do now with Obama and many other Democrats. And since Israel is a more conservative country and definitely moving further in that direction for demographic reasons, it just seems impossible for toeiva marriage to happen there. Here, on the other hand, it’s very hard to raise kids without them being exposed all the time to the idea that opposing toeiva is evil and outdated and even akin to racism.
I didnt read through all the posts above. But as soon as i read the first few, a question came to me: We as Jews are a minority. What we want is not usually what goes (unless its on a smaller scale) If us Jews are against this legalization, and we did take a stand against, why would we get punished for something that we did everything we could do to prevent from being legal but due to our small numbers couldnt prevent?
yytz -“Adults who are already frum, though, I’m not so worried about.”
That’s because you have your head in the sand. I know some former “Frum” married woman who went to college and took these women lib courses and now is Frei and one of those Toeivaniks.
miritchka, it’s not that simple.
1. We were not punished for what the gentiles did. But I’m not sure (I don’t know) we “did everything we could” either.
2. The gemara clearly states that the only zechus the Gentiles have is that they don’t write a kesuba bein ish liIsh. Absent that…?
3. There is a concept of Oy LaRasha Oy Lishcheino, which means that if an innocent person associates with a wicked one then the innocent person may end up caught up, CH”V, in the punishment of that wicked person.
If the coalition goes a certain way, you can be sure toeva marriages will be accepted in EY along with all other forms of civil marriage.
Tel Aviv (Naye Sdoim) is a world toeva capital!
JM19: I take it, then, that you are equally opposed to any Jew taking ANY political or activist position. You are opposed to Jews voicing support or opposition to any political issue. That is the seeming logic of your comment.
Well, that is a more consistent position and I can respect that and perhaps even agree to an extent. But then why aren’t you as vocal in opposing the many more times (than the toeiva anti-advocacy) when frum Jews publicly and often even prominently support or oppose political candidates for office? In fact, your enumerated position should indicate your opposition to frum candidates running for any political office. That is more prominent and frequent than this… where have you voiced opposition to all that?
JM -“Firstly, where is there a mitzva to try to convince the goyish government to make their laws in line with our laws? Where is it stated that there is a Mitzva to do anything?”
You sound like a pacifist. Forget about that this law affects Jews and more are influenced by these liberal laws to become that way, why don’t you care about that this brings destruction to the world? Don’t we live in this world too? And don’t say -“Well why wouldn’t we be exempt?” We just learned in the Parsha -we had to do many things to avoid the destruction of Macas Bechoros. Why? Because once the angel of destruction goes out -it doesn’t differentiate between good and bad. Didn’t you learn this? Or you don’t believe in it?
“Secondly what should we have done exactly?”
If you would have Read My posts -I repeatedly said what could be/have been done. We have Jewish leaders in NY State Gov. and they could have been influenced by their Jewish constituents to oppose the Toeiva agenda. Stop putting your head in the sand!
JM19: You ignored the point that your logic demands that Jews express no public opinion on matters such as a preference for specific political candidates or parties. Or for that matter, to be consistent you would need to be opposed to an expression of an opinion on any public policy matters not directly related to Jewish issues. Will a review of your history of comments on this forum find no such expressed preferences? Do you not express such political preferences among your social network?
I am not quite sure what JayMatt’s position is. But I agree that Jews as Jews should never express any public opinion that is even mildly controversial and definitely never endorse political parties or candidates. Even if it is directly related to Jewish Issues it should be minimized as much as possible.
We tend to forget that we are in golus. This is not our land and it is not our place to have protests or to tell the goyim what to do, it only creates more anti-semitism. Behind the scenes advocacy is fine but in public never.
benignuman, there are exceptions, such as during WW II, when Rabbanim did march to Washington. For something as terrible as mishkav zachar, I’m not so sure the quiet approach is the correct one. Either way, there are Jewish politicians, as Health noted, and other ways to properly and appropriately express our absolute disagreement.
JayMatt, Regarding, my point 1, I apologize for omitting the other two. But the point still remains. Rashi even writes that despite such behavior, they still respect the mitzva to the extent that they don’t write a kesuba. Whereas today, they’re essentially claiming there is no such mitzva. This is obviously not a smart idea.
As to my points 2 and 3, they are not paradoxical at all. Oy LaRasha has implications for others, as I wrote. There is plenty to look up in Parshas Korach and elsewhere on this matter. But outside whatever that association is, the gentiles are responsible for their own behavior; there is no arvus to them as there is between Jews.
“there are exceptions, such as during WW II, when Rabbanim did march to Washington.”
That didn’t really work out, did it. But R’Aharon Kotler, R’Kalmanovitz and Irving Bunim had some success going behind the scenes. However, I agree, that in such a grave situation where so many Jewish lives are on the line and you are not criticizing the government but begging the government, a public outcry might be in order.
Mishkav Zachor isn’t such a situation. And we should not “express” our disagreement. We should keep our mouths shut.
Various gedolim in fact have protested the abortion decisions, Rav Avigdor Miller most prominently perhaps, and have further encouraged the tzibbur to protest the same.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller publicly protested abortion decisions!?! Or did he just speak against them in a shiur or in his shul?
There is a big difference between criticizing something in a schmooze and standing outside with a placard or giving an interview to a media outlet.
Rav Miller wrote letters to the editor of the New York Times protesting toeiva. He organized the group “Jews for Morality”. He sent over 20 of his mispallelim out to a public protests against toieva with representitives of other organizations when the NYC Council was considering a “toeiva rights” bill. He advised mispallelim who to vote for. One year he told his mispallelim that he spent Erev Yom Kippur writing letters protesting immorality. Another time he asked people to write letters to the NYC Council protesting a toeive bill under consideration.
There is a letter signed by Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky and Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen (Rav Miller’s grandson-in-law) and other rabbonim asking yidden to go to Trenton to protest NJ’s legistature consideration of a toeiva marriage bill.
benignuman:
Who said it “didn’t work out” and even if that is so because they didn’t get to speak to the President, who says it didn’t accomplish anything, regardless? These were great Torah giants who participated in this. Are you sure wish to ridicule them so flippantly?
JayMatt:
1. I never said we should educate them about their zechusim. But even for our own sake, we don’t want our host country to be sedom. Lot needed tremendous divine intervention and it was still bad news for Lot even though he was rescued. It is certainly in our own interest that our host country should be a country with proper morals, including not sanctifying that which the Torah calls an abomination.
2. While the cases of Toeiva and WW II are indeed not comparable, there are still certain cases when a larger protest is called for. I’m not saying this toeiva issue is or is not such a case. But there is such a precedent for certain cases, and nobody ever proclaimed that such measures were limited only to the Holocaust.
3. Again, my point does remain that despite there being two other zechuyos as you pointed out from that gemara, it is still very extremely foolish of the gentiles to do what they did by legislating “writing a kesuba between one man and another”.
As for your other points about “Partial-Birth Abortion”, “pulling the plug”, etc., note that murder is not a toeiva as is mishkav zachar nor is it a particular zechus the nations have as is not writing a kesuba bein ish LiIsh. Regardless, I am not taking any position as to whether or not I believe there should have been protests then. But I do know that the Torah calls this toeiva and that there are also Chazal’s further comments in the gemara as per the above.
JayMatt: How do you feel about the aforementioned actions of Rav Miller, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Cohen, et al?
I would like to see that letter.
HaKatan, you are right I shouldn’t have been flippant. I do think that they might have had more success if they tried to work behind the scenes with members of Congress, the Senate, or the President’s cabinet.
Heres the letter. (See on bottom.)
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/wp-content/uploads/sbc_letter_tls.jpg
If you can go back you might want to edit your post. Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky is not on that letter.
Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky later signed that letter after those three Rabbonim signed it. There is another copy of the letter with Rav Shmuel’s signature on that same site. If you can’t find it, I can post the link later. (Can’t easily do links from here.)
Here’s the letter Rav Shmuel signed:
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/wp-content/uploads/r_shmuel_letter.jpg
And, btw, there is a video of Rav Cohen and other rabbonim with 40 yungerleit at the Trenton statehouse protesting the toeiva bill.
Wow, I am shocked.
Outside of the extreme situation of the Holocaust, has there been any other time where Gadol has advocated Jews publicly protest something a non-Jewish government was doing?
Why is it better to protest?
Ask Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky shlit”a (or any of the other rabbonim.)
They are easily reachable and will be happy to answer your kasha.
The lesson that should be learned from Sefer Yonah is that HaShem cares about the nations, and wants us to be an ohr la goyim, and to help steer the world towards the path of morality.
How anyone can abdicate this duty is unconscionable, especially when misguided members of our community sadly use their Orthodox affiliations as a means of sugarcoating their support for leftist LGBT causes (I’m talking about the statement drafted by R’ Nati Helfgot).
There are more pressing concerns that we have to deal with, especially in areas like conversion, kiruv, tuition costs, the need for parnassa, etc.
JM19: There are a number of reasons why people protest: A: Because they believe the protest will inspire change B: They dont believe it will inspire change, but they feel they shouldn’t be silent on the matter, lest people believe they agree C: They dont feel it will inspire change, but by protesting you are reminding yourself where you stand on the issue.(Mussar for one’s self)
Let me tell you something, the reason for the protest wasn’t “Option A”.
Read again the very first sentence of the letter linked above and signed by the Gedolim. They specifically list your “Option A” as the reason for the protest. Clearly they hold it is worthwhile to change the goyim’s law against this abomination.
Reb Doniel,
Yonah had a direct command from Hashem as a navi (and still did his best to avoid it). I don’t think you can compare any issue today to Yonah.
Toieva and Avodah Zara was rampant among the goyim in the ancient world, yet we don’t find Hashem sending neviim on a regular basis to reprimand those nations and we don’t find the Chachomim sending messengers and protestors in the post-nevua era.
We are an “or l’goyim” by example not by yelling at them.
benignuman: Try to find any historical example where the gentiles officially sanctified and/or recognized homosexuality as a so-called “marriage”. That is a unique issue that the Gemora takes a stronger stand against than even “mere” relations outside of a recognized (so-called) “marriage”.
Well Chazal actually do state that the Mabul was an oinesh on the prevalence of Mishkav Zachor (The Ramban explains it was triggered by Gezel and was on the issur of Mishkav Zuchor)
JM -“And getting back to the initial point, why would we be punished to harshly with a hurricane for not doing enough? Seems like those who say to protest, do so in a very limited way.”
I answered your question, but you ignored it. Here is my post:
“You sound like a pacifist. Forget about that this law affects Jews and more are influenced by these liberal laws to become that way, why don’t you care about that this brings destruction to the world? Don’t we live in this world too? And don’t say -“Well why wouldn’t we be exempt?” We just learned in the Parsha -we had to do many things to avoid the destruction of Macas Bechoros. Why? Because once the angel of destruction goes out -it doesn’t differentiate between good and bad. Didn’t you learn this? Or you don’t believe in it?”
It seems you only respond to posts that you think you have a rebuttal. The others you ignore like they aren’t there. In spite of your pretending – there is a very good case for the Frum Jews to go out and protest against this Toeivah. The fact that Rabbonim in EY haven’t made such a loud protest against Toeiva over there is because they aren’t giving them legal marriage there. If they will try that there – the protests over there will get ugly.
Avhaben,
I think you are misunderstanding the Gemara if you are taking it to mean that an official “marriage ceremony” (which does absolutely nothing from a halakhic point of view) that by itself violates no issur is worse then the maaseh atzmo which is a violation of one of the Sheva Mitzvos B’nei Noach (and would be yehoreig v’al yaavor for Jews).
JayMatt19 -“Why didn’t they make an announcement in BMG for all to go? As mentioned, there are only 40 people there at the protest? Why? They should have easily been able to get more, all they had to do was ask.
Probably cause they didn’t want to ask and they didn’t want more. And this was about marriage and was about NJ, not EY”
Since when does BMG represent Klal Yisroel in NJ? They are a Yeshiva. Also, this Yeshiva is very much into politics – so they aren’t going to make political protests that aren’t PC. They don’t feel the backlash will be worth it for them.
“You are welcome to have the final word, but like I told another poster, do not read anything into my silence”
Just like you don’t want to have anyone read into your silence, why are you reading into BMG’s silence?
“your proofs are thin at best. I don’t argue for the sake of arguing, I made my point and I anticipated the replies that got. I stand by my point.”
You can stand by your points all you want, but don’t just say my “proofs are thin at best”, bring some proof to your statements.
Or do you just want e/o here to take your word for it?
“Cheshbon hanefesh means bettering ones self, looking at ones own behavior and trying to better it. Blaming others is not going to help klal yisorel.”
Again this wasn’t just about blaming others. This was about what Yidden did Not do about the Toeiva agenda.
“Did you protest the marriage laws in Europe? Are they not part of the world too?”
Obviously, Hashem doesn’t consider it a Taana on us if we aren’t even in the same Country. Not only was this in our Country, these laws were passed in the States we reside in. And btw, not all of Europe is Pro-toeiva, Russia is passing more laws against them.
“Also, We had to do many things to show hashem we are worthy of becoming his nation. To train ourselves that the fear is in hashem, and that hashem can protect us
“when the angel of destruction goes out” last I checked, we say in the haggada that hashem did that makka himself. Perhaps your hagadda says differently”
The fact that Hashem did it directly as opposed to using a Malach or a messenger is irrevelant. Everything ultimately comes from Hashem – so this danger of being destroyed because of others applies whether Hashem does the destructiom himself or uses a Malach. This is his policy. So Hashem can include Jews amongst the victims of a hurricaine, even if they weren’t the reason of the Gezeirah.
“This will be the final time I reply to you here, or any other post until for the foreseeable future.”
This certainly is your prerogative; I have no problem with this!
JayMatt19,
I looked at the Gemara a while ago. Contrary to the way it is portrayed the Gemara does not say that the goyim subsist on the performance of 3 of the 30 mitzvos they were mekabel. Read it carefully. The Gemara is interpreting a posuk. The first pshat is that the posuk is referring to the 30 tzaddikei umos ha’olam upon whose zchus the umos ha’olam are miskayem. The second pshat is that the posuk refers to 30 mitzvos that the goyim were mekabel of which they keep 3. In this pshat there is no mention of the umos ha’olam being miskayem in their zchus (and the contrast with the first pshat is m’duyuk fakert).
Additionally, even if the Gemara actually said what people claim it would not mean that preventing same gender marriage is more important that preventing same gender relations. Rather the Gemara would be saying that despite the goyim’s aveiros they are able to still exist on the zchus of a very small act of not writing a kesuba on these relationships.
This is like the Aggada that says that Nevuchadnezzar Harasha was allowed to conquer the world in the zchus of taking 3 steps to call out to a messenger for kavod shomayim. It doesn’t mean that somehow taking those steps was a zchus greater than the numerous aveiros of shfichas damim and avoda zara of Nevuchadnezzar, but rather despite those terrible aveiros Nevuchadnezzar still gets some schar for taking the steps. But obviously his schar would have been much, much greater if he would have not murdered, pillaged and served avoda zara.
So too here. While the umos ha’olam get schar for not writing kesubos on same gender unions, they would certainly get much more schar if they would avoid such relations all together. And if for some reason two men would have a celibate relationship but chose to write a kesuba for it, then that would be a much bigger zchus than that of not writing a kesuba.
benig: What you are basically saying is that the maaisa of mishkav zochor is terrible but doing the maaisa plus witing a kesuba for it is even worse than just the maaisa without the kesuba.
avhaben,
And, writing a kesuba without doing the maisa is nowhere near as bad as the maisa (and may not be bad at all). To focus on the kesuba over the maisa is to miss the ikkur for the toful.
No, you dropped the ball. No one writes a kesuba without the intent to consume it with the maaisa. Who are you kidding? If they write the kesuba, they are doing the maaisa.
So the two possibilities are either the mishkav zochorniks doing the maaisa with a kesuba or without a kesuba. If we could outlaw and otherwise stop them from doing the maaisa altogether, we by all means should work on accomplishing that very worthwhile goal. (And it should be note that, in fact, the maaisa itself was illegal in the United States until in the not too distant past. So it isn’t only a pipe dream.) But considering that writing the kesuba on top of the maaisa makes it that much worse (as we all agree), we should certainly at least work against letting it advance that far (i.e. with a kesuba).
And that is exactly what we see the Gedolim shlita advocating, as we saw above from Rav Shmuel shlita.
What kind of an example do we give when we stand back and sanction homosexuality and their movement to radically redefine and trample upon the sacred estate of matrimony?
Even worse, what kind of an example is it when we have sell-out phony Jews like Shelly Silver and David Weprin having the audacity to call themselves frum when their politics are destroying the world and are reflective of very evil attitudes?
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