Blaming the Same Gender Unions: A Personal Rant

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  • #927638
    Kozov
    Member

    A ???? source for being involved in influencing ??? ?? regarding their laws is ??”? ??? ???? ??”? ??’ ???: ???? ???????.

    There is another important factor no one mentioned: there are tens of thousands of Jews who weren’t fortunate enough to have a ???? upbringing whose behavior and perspective these laws very realistically affect.

    Yonah had a direct command from Hashem as a navi (and still did his best to avoid it). I don’t think you can compare any issue today to Yonah.

    Rabbi Yehuda Hachasid makes the comparison: ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ????, ???? ??? ???”? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?????”? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????

    (??? ?????? ???? ?????)

    We also see here a similar thing to what Health argued (which JayMatt19 has yet to respond appropriately to) about not differentiating by destruction and that it is still something to be concerned about even were it not to be a ????.

    #927639
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    I did reply. I’ll do it in longer form

    There where 10 makkos, by all 10 the Yidden did not suffer. Seems like differentiation to me. Only by the last one did HKBH give them a “task” to do before so that they’d be saved.

    Was it because of destruction, as you say, or because HKBH decided that this was a great time to test klal yirsroel, and if they failed they’d be punished for failing, not because of the initial destruction decree?

    By the Yam there was no task. We were saved and our enemies died. Yet both groups were idolitors. Shevet Dan was thinking about AZ when they went through, and had their AZ in their pockets as they went through, and were still saved. Hashem differentiated us even when we didn’t.

    I’ll be happy to answer, when the proof is brought

    #927640
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Wanted to add this but too late.

    So 10 out of the 11 times we see clearly that Klal Yisroel doesn’t get included. As to the 11th, there are plenty of other ways of interpretation.

    Please don’t use choshech as a counter proof, they didn’t die because of the makka

    #927641
    HaKatan
    Participant

    JayMatt, I don’t understand why, CH”V, you refuse to believe in that Chazal (ironic, since you just quoted from the maaseh of Vayaaminu BaHashem uViMoshe avdo”.

    Health correctly referred to the Chazal that there are times, that once Hashem had allowed the mashchis to go forth, that his destruction was, to some extent, indiscriminate. (I also mentioned earlier regarding oy laRasha which Chazal also have much to talk about. Do you not believe in that Chazal as well, CH”V?)

    Hence, when massive double-digit foot waves washed over NYC, it makes sense that, for instance, Seagate was also affected simply because of their topography (and perhaps because of their proximity to this immorality?), given that Hashem had sent out this destructive force “Sandy”.

    I’m not claiming Sandy was or was not one of those cases of “kivan sheNitan Rishus….”. Nor can I claim this was a case of Oy LaRasha either. Who knows? But the possibility for each is certainly there, and the other 10 instances you quoted do not negate this.

    As for the Yam Suf, Pesel Micha did make it through, but we had other zechuyos that compensated for “Halalu Ovdei Avoda Zara VaHalalu Ovdei Avoda Zara”. Do you also enjoy trying to bring a kitrug on what are presumably your people? Of course Hashem differentiated and saved us.

    But, again, the differentiation at Krias Yam Suf doesn’t negate the concept of Kivan sheNitan Rishus…”. Hashem is always kind to us, but that doesn’t mean you can negate Chazal. Obviously, there are certain times/people/whatever when/where that Chzal applies and other times/people/whatever when/where it doesn’t.

    #927642
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    This is why I love the CR (sarcasm)

    Firstly, I need to debate Joseph who is using at least 2 or 3 names. Why? L-rd knows

    Second of all, A quote was made without quoting it as a chazal. (B’shem Omro meivi geula?)

    I’m supposed to automatically know it is a chazal and not someone’s own made up Torah (e.g. The Yona pshat from this topic)

    Since I don’t know it is a chazal, I try to debate it with proofs that are proofs, and you acknowledge are proofs, but am accused of rejecting chazal, and being mekatreg my own people.

    (I also mentioned earlier regarding oy laRasha which Chazal also have much to talk about. Do you not believe in that Chazal as well, CH”V?)

    I believe that Chazal refers to Yidden as “shecheinav”, not Goyim. If you have a source for otherwise, I’d love to educate myself

    Do you also enjoy trying to bring a kitrug on what are presumably your people?

    No, I like learning pshat. Sorry that you feel saying “Halalu Ovdei Avoda Zara VaHalalu Ovdei Avoda Zara” is speaking bad on your own people. What else from the Torah can I not mention? Meraglim? The Killing of Chur? Participating in the seuda of Achashverosh?

    And finally, Where can I locate this Chazal so that I can learn it and understand it?

    #927643
    benignuman
    Participant

    Ahavben,

    We don’t agree that it is much worse, we agree it is worse. I disagree on the “much.” The point of not writing the kesuba is that at least they realize that it is not something that they should be proud of. By analogy a murderer who boasts about his murder is worse than one who tries to hide it, but the boasting isn’t remotely comparable to the horrendous nature of the murder.

    Kozov,

    Is that statement by Rav Yehuda Hachasid brought down l’halacha? Does he mean a public macha or does he mean speaking to someone in private in a way in which he will listen like we understand “hochaich tochiach? Is he speaking about what one should do in golus or what one should do in Eretz Yisrael when it is under Jewish control?

    Most importantly, I have the same kasha on Rav Yehuda Hachasid as I had whomever originally made the argument from Yonah. Why do we only find this by Yonah? The non-Jewish world has been violating the 7 mitzvos as long as the mitzvos have been around and we don’t find any common practice of protesting these actions.

    As for our brethren not raised with Torah and Mitzvos, the best way to influence them is by example and outreach, not by shouting at the goyim.

    #927644

    You disagree with Rav Kaminetzky and the other named Gedolim. Which specific rabbi supports your position?

    #927645
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    You disagree with Rav Kaminetzky and the other named Gedolim. Which specific rabbi supports your position?

    Assuming he counts, Rabbi Malkiel Kotler.

    #927646
    benignuman
    Participant

    The Hundreds of Rabbonim who have not advocated for any such protests. Agudas Yisroel of America which has always had a policy against public protests. The OU which has not advocated for any such protests. R’Aharon Kotler who refused to join even the famed march on Washington to save the Jews of Europe.

    And frankly I am little skeptical about whether Rav Shmuel really signed that letter.

    #927647

    Rav Kotler expressed no such position implied. Nor has the non-expression of a position implied support for your position by any other Rabbi, OU, Agudah, etc.

    #927648
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Rav Kotler expressed no such position implied.

    Execpt for supporting the Pro-Toeiva Jon Corzine. That is an expressed opinion that was pro-toeiva by a “Gadol”.

    Joe, if we continue to discuss this, you have to agree explicitly in your next post to only use one screen name in this thread, and not to copy & paste long paragraphs from other websites, specificly the defunct FrumTeens. Otherwise I do not plan on responding to anything that you say.

    #927649

    Supporting a flawed candidate in no way, shape or form implies support for all his flaws. Otherwise you could never vote for any candidate, as they are all flawed. (That being said, it should be additionally and seperately noted that afaik HaRav Kotler never expressed to be in support of Corzine.)

    #927651
    anon1m0us
    Participant
    #927652
    benignuman
    Participant

    TLKY,

    The non-support of a position that you consider a mandate, is a support of my position, i.e. that we take no position.

    In other words, my opinion is that Jews in golus should not publicly protest the bad things that the non-Jews do. Every time the non-Jews do something, in a public way, that violates the sheva mitzvos and the assorted entities and Gedolim do not encourage public protest, they are supporting my position.

    #927653
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joe, you didn’t make the statement that I requested.

    Sorry, I can’t have a civilized discussion with you (and you and you and you).

    #927654

    Who said anything about a “mandate”? No one is supporting your position. ALL the Gedolim who have taken a position, including Rav Kaminetzky, have taken a strong position that we ought to protest. And certainly be opposed to this abomination.

    #927655
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It will be interesting what will be done if Christine Quinn becomes the next mayor of NYC.

    What will be the postion then

    #927656
    benignuman
    Participant

    TLKY,

    My position is that we should keep our mouths shut and not tell the goyim what to do. This is the position being followed, in practice, by the vast majority of the American Orthodox Rabbinate.

    #927657

    Just because a Rabbi doesn’t have or use a trampoline, does not at all mean that his position is that trampolines are impermissible.

    #927658
    benignuman
    Participant

    If some great Rabbis (such as Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky) say that everyone should do their best to purchase trampolines and still the vast majority of other great Rabbis do not purchase trampolines and don’t encourage their followers to purchase trampolines, then it is reasonable to draw the inference that they feel that shev v’al taaseh odif.

    #927659
    Health
    Participant

    GAW -“Execpt for supporting the Pro-Toeiva Jon Corzine. That is an expressed opinion that was pro-toeiva by a “Gadol”.”

    This is an outrageous lie and I’m no Chosid of the Kotlers. They went for Corzine because of Hakoras Hatov. They never were Pro his Toeiva -agenda. They didn’t openly go against him and wanted to vote for him because they figured his other Maalos outweigh this one Chessoron. Then people here asked the Gedolim in EY and they said you can’t ignore that one Chessoron.

    #927660
    Health
    Participant

    Doniel -“Even worse, what kind of an example is it when we have sell-out phony Jews like Shelly Silver and David Weprin having the audacity to call themselves frum when their politics are destroying the world and are reflective of very evil attitudes?”

    I agree. Thanx for posting.

    #927661

    Except that in these cases Rav Shmuel and the other Gedolim aren’t ordering everyone to protest. They are saying it is worthwhile for those that can to protest, as it will be mekadesh shem shamayim to protest. Thus, anyone else’s not repeating what those gedolim already said in no way, shape or form infers opposition. In fact, it likely infers support. As the other rabbonim have no need to repeat the obvious facts what Rav Shmuel et al already publicly stated.

    #927662
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    How many Jews and Rabbanim voted for Cuomo?

    He did alot more than Corzine did

    #927663
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    They never were Pro his Toeiva -agenda. They didn’t openly go against him and wanted to vote for him because they figured his other Maalos outweigh this one Chessoron.

    That makes it even worse, that they (The Lakewood “vaad” and its controllers) sold out to the Avoda Zara called Mammon. Corzine got the “Yeshiva” half a million dollars for a “Holocaust library”, so they had to repay in votes.

    Had it been help in areas of Halacha (such as a bill regarding Metzitza, or Shmiras Shabbos, etc.) then perhaps there would be room to discuss.

    #927664
    Health
    Participant

    benignuman -“My position is that we should keep our mouths shut and not tell the goyim what to do. This is the position being followed, in practice, by the vast majority of the American Orthodox Rabbinate.”

    First of all, I’m Not interested in Your position. Second of all, Don’t read into their silence as they are on the opposition of the Gedolim that said to publically protest. They could hold either way.

    So it appears to me we have some anon. posters here who hold that Noone should Protest, against well known Gedolim who say we should. I have no problem of who to listen to. If people aren’t sure what to do -let them ask their LOR!

    #927665
    Health
    Participant

    HaKatan -“Health correctly referred to the Chazal that there are times, that once Hashem had allowed the mashchis to go forth, that his destruction was, to some extent, indiscriminate.”

    I looked it up. It’s not so Pashut. The Sifsay Chachomim learns Rashi about the Mashchis is refering to the Mashchis of “night”, not of the Bechorim. (Night is a time of danger.) Ramban argues and learns the Mashchis is when a king goes out he has soldiers pushing people out of the way -so also Hashem went out in Egypt that night and anyone there would get pushed away (and possibly hurt) by his Malachim keeping e/o away.

    But the Malbim learns this Possuk is dependant on the Maclokes of R’ Yoshea and R’ Yonasson that argue about what Oopasachti means. So acc. to R’ Yoshea the Mashchis wouldn’t go into a Jew’s house if a Mitzri was there because then he’d have to kill both and this is why a Jew should Not go outside on that night. And R’ Yonasson would argue and says the Mashchis did differentiate even in the same house. So this poster Jay can hold like this Shitta.

    Still this would be in Mitzrayim where we had Nissim Geluyim happen to us -it’s unlikely Hashem would be Mavchen all the time, like during hurricaines because this would require a Neis Goluy.

    Can you imagine how this would work out -one house would have flooding and the very next house -no flooding because it’s a Jew’s house. I don’t think nowadays anyone would hold Hashem would be Mavchen. We aren’t on the level to see Obvious Miracles!

    #927666
    Health
    Participant

    GAW -“That makes it even worse, that they (The Lakewood “vaad” and its controllers) sold out to the Avoda Zara called Mammon. Corzine got the “Yeshiva” half a million dollars for a “Holocaust library”, so they had to repay in votes.”

    I didn’t say I agreed with their Cheshbon, just explaining it.

    And I didn’t mean to say they weighed one against the other, just they thought the Toeiva agenda would happen anyway -they weren’t being so astute regarding this political view. So they really didn’t take Corzine’s Pro-Toeiva agenda into Cheshbon.

    #927667
    Health
    Participant

    benignuman -“Ahavben, We don’t agree that it is much worse, we agree it is worse. I disagree on the “much.” The point of not writing the kesuba is that at least they realize that it is not something that they should be proud of. By analogy a murderer who boasts about his murder is worse than one who tries to hide it, but the boasting isn’t remotely comparable to the horrendous nature of the murder.”

    You also on the page previously denied that same-gender marriage contracts (Kesubos) can bring destruction in the world. You have taken Chazal’s words and twisted them and Krummed them up for your own ideological POV!

    Writing marriage contracts one to the other from the same gender is Much worse that just doing the act regarding its’ punishment in this world, as opposed to the actual sin. It’s called Makeh B’patesh – one sin on top of another. The former brings about the destruction of the world as you see from the following:

    From the topic of Jews Ought to Vote Republican – The Torah Supports Conservatism:

    “Dave Hirsch –

    #927668
    benignuman
    Participant

    Health,

    I don’t see how they could hold either way. They either hold protesting is a kiddush hashem, in which case it is odd that they haven’t publicly made a kiddush hashem by encouraging their followers to protest, or they can hold that protesting is not good for some reason (or just serves no positive purpose), in which case it make perfect sense that they have not encouraged their followers to to protest.

    Secondly, the Agudah’s policy of not publicly protesting in Chutz L’aretz is long-standing and well-known since before WWII.

    #927669
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Thank You Health

    And R’ Yonasson would argue and says the Mashchis did differentiate even in the same house. So this poster Jay can hold like this Shitta.

    I once heard a shiur from R’ Brevda zt”l describing makkas bechoros according to this shitta, as only he, R’ Brevda was able to.

    Describing what it was like to sit in your own home, being forced to house an Egyptian 1st born in your home with you, since his parents were scared. And during all this you were eating Korban Pesach (his god).

    R’ Brevda went on to say how this didn’t save the Egyptian. Seems like he geared his shiur towards the shitta of R’ Yonasson

    #927670
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I am so sick and tired of people trying to use the Corzine endorsement by the Lakewood Vaad as proof that one can vote a Pro-Toeiva canidatdate.

    Lets set the record straight.

    The Lakewood Va’ad is largley run by Balei Batim.

    Frum and Erliche Ba’al Habtim who do much to help others but Bale Baatim not Rabbonim.

    The Va’ad said that Rabbonim backed their view.

    I am sure some did.

    However Rabbi Shmuel Meir Katz personally hung up a sign stating if they mean him or any of the other Yeshiva Poskim (Rabbi Forsheimer, Rabbi Felder, Rabbi Lieberman) it is a mistake as they did not state one can vote for Corzine.

    They all told anyone who asked that they would vote for Christie.

    Rabbi Yeruchem Olshin shlita stated publicly that his signature was copied for the sign and though they presumed he would be OK with it he was not.

    The overwhelming majority of Rabbonim in Lakewood stated one should vote for Christie.

    And yes the overwhelming vote in lakewood was for Christie.

    #927674
    Kozov
    Member

    Seems like he geared his shiur towards the shitta of R’ Yonasson

    What is your point? Even were it to be true that that was his personal shitta, though I find it to be a long stretch to say the least, there is another factor: ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????. But as Health anyway said, that occurence was likely particular to the Exodus.

    #927675
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    My point was about R’ Brevda. And his shiur, nothing else.

    Obviously he can’t take sides in a dispute among Amoraim

    #927676
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    @Kozov

    there is another factor: ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????. But as Health anyway said, that occurence was likely particular to the Exodus.

    You are right…L’fi The Malbim, Aliba D’Rebbe Yoshea

    It wasn’t a Chazal, as previously mentioned. And the Ramban and the Sifsei Chachamim learn the passuk differently.

    Thank you Health for taking the time to look it up posting the Torah here

    #927677
    Shraga18
    Participant

    I have found this thread to be a very interesting discussion with interesting taanos on both sides.

    Which is why it’s unfortunate that some of the posters fall back on a cheap shot like accusing those who disagree with them being Joseph.

    Unless you have proof, try to not mix in irrelevant accusations.

    #927678
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Shraga18: Note he didn’t deny it.

    My conversation with Health went well, and I think that I agree with his final analysis of the facts (may as well go for the money as legally recognized same gender marriages are inevitable). Even though I don’t personally agree with the choice made to support someone like that (and most Rabbonim, including Rav Shmuel etc. would disagree as well), I understand it better. As ZD said, it will be interesting what happens when Quinn comes up for election.

    #927679
    benignuman
    Participant

    Health, you wrote: “You also on the page previously denied that same-gender marriage contracts (Kesubos) can bring destruction in the world. You have taken Chazal’s words and twisted them and Krummed them up for your own ideological POV!”

    I am not the one twisting Chazal’s words. All I did was look up the Gemara being quoted and I found that it didn’t say what was being claimed.

    “Writing marriage contracts one to the other from the same gender is Much worse that just doing the act regarding its’ punishment in this world, as opposed to the actual sin. It’s called Makeh B’patesh – one sin on top of another.”

    Makeh B’Patesh is the last of the 39 Malachos. Writing non-sensical marriage contracts (which is what these are halakhicly) is not “makeh b’patesh” even in a metaphorical sense. There is no “kli” of issur that is completed by writing these contracts.

    It would take a very clear statement from Chazal for me to believe that writing a non-binding, useless kesuba on a same gender union is worse than the maaseh aveira itself. If there were aidim and hasra on the writing of such a “kesuba” but no eidim and hasra on the maaseh aveira, do you have a hava amina that someone would be chayav misa? If a kesuba was written up but before the maaseh one of them died, is there a hava amina that the living one would be chayav anything?

    Oh, and please provide an actual citation to this Midrash of Rav Huna in the name of Rav Yosef, so I can look it up and see if it says what is claimed (although my points above would remain valid regardless).

    #927680
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Unlike Yosef HaTzaddik who said “Ani Yosef, haOd Avi Chai?”, I am not Joseph nor any other poster by any other name.

    JayMatt:

    I’m not sure what proofs you refer to, but I do think the kitrug was irrelevant to the post. I didn’t mean to say these situations (pesel Micha, seudas Achashveirosh, et al.) are off-limits to discussion when on topic, but I don’t see the point of arbitrarily bringing in “halalu … vaHalalu”.

    Regarding Oy laRasha, are you saying that it only applies to Jews and not at all if non-Jews are involved? Why?

    As for a source, I mentioned earlier that Oy laRasha is mentioned in parshas Korach. Rashi in the beginning of the parsha quotes it from the Midrash Tanchuma.

    Health posted about “Kivan sheNitan rishus…” If you look at the Lekach Tov, by “Pen Tisafu bichal chatosam” in Korach 16:26, he says explicitly that even those who did not sin had to separate themselves because “Kivan shenitan rishus…”

    Besides for this, however, if you look at the Midrash HaGadol later on, under “Hibadlu mitoch haEida haZos”, you’ll find something that might be relevant here: he writes that had not Moshe davened for them, they, too, would have been swallowed up like Korach because they listened to Korach’s blasphemy and did not protest. So there is what to be said for protesting, though contemporary gedolim have anyways ruled like this, in certain cases, as mentioned.

    #927681
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Agreed that the gemarra mentions 3 out of 30 that the goyim still keep. Agreed that it does not say that they survive on this merit.

    . It would take a very clear statement from Chazal for me to believe that writing a non-binding, useless kesuba on a same gender union is worse than the maaseh aveira itself.

    ????? ?????

    ?????, ??????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????

    What is worse, maaseh without kesuba or kesuba without maaseh? I haven’t got a clue

    But I think it is silly to believe that once there is kesuba there will be no maaseh.

    And maaseh with kesuba is worse than maaseh without kesuba

    #927682
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    @HaKatan

    1. I brought it as a counter proof to what Health had said about “When destruction goes out, it does so indiscriminately” I was asking why that wouldn’t be the case by the Yam. The AZ comment was just to show that the zechusim angle might not work

    2. The Midrash on Korach: The people who were neutral in Korach v. Moshe were punished because not because they decided not to get involved, but because they said “If Moshe wins we’ll follow him, If Korach wins we’ll follow him”. They weren’t lazy, they were totally neutral, despite what they had seen until now. Additionally, their protesting would be for Yidden and to Yidden, in a place with only Yidden.

    You might feel that a machlokes about who is the leader of klal yisroel with the aforementioned circumstances, can be applied to a goyish government’s laws, I don’t see the connection.

    3. As for Oy L’Rasha, that is learned from a Midrash in Toras Kohanim, about wall in between the home of a metzora and a tahor yid, the wall needs to be knocked down, why? what did the other yid do? Oy L’Rasha… (and metzora is only by a yid)

    I’m pretty confident, and I checked this with a chaver (doesn’t mean that we are wrong) that the term “shecheino” is not used by a goy.

    #927683
    benignuman
    Participant

    JayMatt19,

    I am not disagreeing that in the normal course of events if there is a kesubah there is a maaseh, and I am not disagreeing that if there is both it is worse than just a maaseh. I am pointing out that it is nearly absurd to think that the kesubah without a maaseh is worse than the maaseh itself.

    In addition I am arguing that the it does not make sense for Yidden to get all worked up over the kesuba, when the main issue is the maaseh and we can’t stop that.

    #927684
    Health
    Participant

    benignuman -“Makeh B’Patesh is the last of the 39 Malachos. Writing non-sensical marriage contracts (which is what these are halakhicly) is not “makeh b’patesh” even in a metaphorical sense. There is no “kli” of issur that is completed by writing these contracts.”

    You obviously don’t know what the metaphorical meaning is. It’s the same thing as “the straw that broke the camel’s back”.

    “It would take a very clear statement from Chazal for me to believe that writing a non-binding, useless kesuba on a same gender union is worse than the maaseh aveira itself. If there were aidim and hasra on the writing of such a “kesuba” but no eidim and hasra on the maaseh aveira, do you have a hava amina that someone would be chayav misa? If a kesuba was written up but before the maaseh one of them died, is there a hava amina that the living one would be chayav anything?”

    Chazal in the Medrash did just that, but you seem to be in some sort of denial. Nowhere do you find that Mischav Zocor in itself brings destruction to the world, but the marriage contracts on Toeiva does. So these Kesubos in this circumstance are worse than the Maaseh itself – in this punishment. Obviously a person writing these Kesubos have plans for the Maaseh also.

    “Oh, and please provide an actual citation to this Midrash of Rav Huna in the name of Rav Yosef, so I can look it up and see if it says what is claimed.”

    Oh, you have to ask the OP of that post for the location. His name is Dave Hirsch. I have no reason to doubt an intellectual poster like him. But you can start searching in the Midrashim on Parshas Noach.

    “(although my points above would remain valid regardless).”

    I really don’t SEE any of your “points” as valid. Also, you’ll never admit that you are WRONG!

    #927685
    Health
    Participant

    benignuman -“I am pointing out that it is nearly absurd to think that the kesubah without a maaseh is worse than the maaseh itself.”

    Why even mention this? Noone would ever think this.

    #927686
    Health
    Participant

    GAW – I’m upset at Ben Levi’s defense of certain people above. There is no defense to make those decisions without the backing of one of the main Bais Dins here!

    #927687
    HaKatan
    Participant

    JayMatt,

    1. “Kivan sheNitan reshus…” is not universally applicable but is a definite precept from Chazal, despite the many, many, instances where Hashem did, does and will differentiate.

    2. We see from Chazal that protesting is sometimes called for. There are other cases, by goyim, too, such as Moshe Rabbeinu when Yisro’s daughters said Ish Mitzri, etc.

    I can’t tell you one can directly extrapolate from Korach to this. But the concept is definitely there, and if gedolim say to protest it then this Chazal seems to be at least a “deyka” or indicator that this is, in fact, correct.

    3. Lot would have been destroyed in Sedom, too, were it not for Avraham Avinu. The shachain part may refer to Jews (or may refer to non-Jews, too). But it’s not only a Jewish-Jewish relationship.

    #927688
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    2. We see from Chazal that protesting is sometimes called for. There are other cases, by goyim, too, such as Moshe Rabbeinu when Yisro’s daughters said Ish Mitzri, etc.

    I can’t tell you one can directly extrapolate from Korach to this. But the concept is definitely there, and if gedolim say to protest it then this Chazal seems to be at least a “deyka” or indicator that this is, in fact, correct.

    3. Lot would have been destroyed in Sedom, too, were it not for Avraham Avinu. The shachain part may refer to Jews (or may refer to non-Jews, too). But it’s not only a Jewish-Jewish relationship.

    Let me get this straight. I bring a proof directly from R’ Shternbuch, who says to go to one protest, and only one protest. And R; Eliyashiv, zt”l, who never said to go to such a protest, yet did say to go to another (Emmanuel). And that can’t be learned from. Yet the fact that Moshe was watching Yisro’s daughters getting attacked can be learned from?

    Talk about a double standard!

    A protest can’t be learned from Yisro or Lot

    Lot was saved by malachim because he had a zechus. (Kivan sheNitan reshus…?)

    Avraham davened for him, he did not protest, he did not try to educate the people of Sdom. He kept far away.

    Even when he told Lot to go right or left, R’ Schwab asks “Why right or left? Why not North or South? He didn’t say North or South cause Sdom was South and Avraham didnt want to go there, nor did he want Lot to go there.

    Moshe saved people whom he saw getting attacked. He did not need to. We don’t learn from Moshe that one needs to. This was lfinim mishuras hadin.

    But the concept is definitely there, and if gedolim say to protest it then this Chazal seems to be at least a “deyka” or indicator that this is, in fact, correct.

    It seems like R’ Miller was really a daas yachid on this. He was a gadol and is entitled to be a daas yachid, but even the R’ Shmuel letter was based upon “R’ Miller says”

    #927689

    Rav Shmuel and the other gedolim who are signatories to the letter clearly agree with Rav Miller. Hardly a daas yochid, especially considering no one has yet been able to produce a single other godol who disagrees. Directly, not by one’s own boich svoros diving other rabbonims position based on their alleged silence.

    #927690
    Kozov
    Member

    JayMatt19, as I was trying to say, ??????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? seems to be a (similar but) different concept.

    #927691
    Kozov
    Member

    Is that statement by Rav Yehuda Hachasid brought down l’halacha?

    Why do you ask? In any case, I provided a source in halacha.

    Does he mean a public macha or does he mean speaking to someone in private in a way in which he will listen like we understand “hochaich tochiach?

    Yona’s entreatment was large scale. But the words in the statement indicate instruction for individuals too.

    Is he speaking about what one should do in golus or what one should do in Eretz Yisrael when it is under Jewish control

    Yona’s story occured outside of Eretz Yisrael.

    Most importantly, I have the same kasha on Rav Yehuda Hachasid as I had whomever

    originally made the argument from Yonah.

    Good luck with that.

    Why do we only find this by Yonah? The non-Jewish world has been violating the 7 mitzvos as long as the mitzvos have been around and we don’t find any common practice of protesting these actions.

    Really, I don’t appreciate the question’s approach, since as you may have recently read, you shouldn’t base your opinion solely on what you read into a perceived silence- in this case of protests, when enjoined otherwise. But I’ll offer an answer: The current circumstances, as far as ability to influence without backlash is concerned, are different from whatever they historically were. Though to the extent you disagree with, I don’t know.

    As for our brethren not raised with Torah and Mitzvos, the best way to influence them is by example and outreach, not by shouting at the goyim.

    As for those who have not yet been reached, different routes are surely not a contradiction to that one.

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