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Well, it finally came down to this. Because parents are misguided and lack a sense of budgeting and fiscal discipline, the school children have to suffer. Will this change the lifestyle and makeup of Lakewood? Only time will tell.
What did the parents do wrong?
I don’t agree that this is the sole issue. Couples with large families need much more money than they make unless they have very well-paying jobs. BH there are plenty of millionaires and billionaires among the frum community but someone has to get them involved in these schools and make contribution that probably can resolve this with a single check
WiseSage58: Do you know this as a fact?
@WiseSage58, if the problem is the pervasive culture of materialism in Lakewood, why is this the only school to shut down?
Read the coverage of this story in the YWN news section and Lakewood Alert. While the school building is leased, they are responsible for monthly utility costs and maintenance. Some irresponsible parents failed to pay their tuition bills and others failed to meet their pledges. In any event, the school administrators cannot print money and they took the responsible action to shut down. Hopefully, most of the girls will find other schools that will accept them mid-semester and not have to consider public school .
UJM: According to the article, the school had to shut down due to parents not paying their tuition obligations.
Obviously, everyone has different financial situations, and some are squeezed harder than others. However, the materialism in Lakewood has risen tremendously in the last number of years, and people are blowing money on insane gashmiyus. It’s not right to just say “let the gvirim take care of it”.
No. Pay your tuition first and include it in your “needs” list, no different than your mortgage or utility bill. Then figure out how to cut back on your “wants”.
If indeed there is no demand for the school then perhaps it should close permanently. But if everyone seems to say that there are not enough schools to go around, then apparently, the need is thereJoe, are you serious? What did the parents do wrong? Did you read the letter? The parents didn’t pay tuition that they had agreed to pay. The school was very clear – had the tuition payments been made as agreed, then the school would be open. Why do people think it’s ok to agree to pay for something, and then not pay it? It’s pure stealing!
Now, the parents who didn’t pay aren’t only responsible for their own children, they’re responsible for the other children whose parents did pay, as well as for the staff members who no longer have jobs and will now struggle for their parnassah.
The responsibility is staggering. They need to beg for forgiveness from all those affected.Reading some of the comments here is angering. The school simply stated that there is a tuition shortfall, enough to force the school to shut down. This jumped rather quickly into several previous comments attacking the parents as guilty, indulging in everything besides paying tuition. This rush to blame went from 0-55 in a few brief seconds, and ignores many truths. Try some of these.
* There are employment factors that affect paying bills. Tuition, that might well be on the top of the list cannot be paid when the income shrinks to zero.
* There are multiple factors that legitimately take tuition away from top priority. How about a medical expense? What administrator would tell a parent to forgo paying for an emergency medical treatment because of tuition? Such an administrator should be removed from his position immediately.
* It is quite convenient to have tuition payments fixed to a schedule. But that does not fit all parents. What would we say to those whose incomes are seasonal? What would we say to those kollel yungerleit or mechanchim whose paychecks are late?
* One commenter attacked the gvirim for failing to make up the gaps for these yeshivos and schools. I think that comment was uncalled for, even inappropriate. The broad brush is neither factual nor deserved. When these same gvirim give to yeshivos but neglect other causes, would they deserve the same denigration? Just look at the growing solicitations for funding. Hachnosas kallah, families left destitute by tragedies, etc. I think it takes gall to throw accusations without knowing. Yes, there may be some misers among us. But most people give tzedokos quite lavishly. Most campaigns surpass their goals. The needs are many. And generosity is immense. Point fingers at oneself before accusing others.Chinuch is a challenging field today. Finances are a big issue, with government funding covering less and less, while costs continue to rise. One can only bite the parents to a limit. Anyone in the business knows that fund raising is a huge piece of the budget. Raising money in a highly competitive marketplace is a huge challenge.
TLIK: Yes, there absolutely are things that can affect one’s ability to pay tuition. If that happens, it is extremely important to be open and honest with the school about it.
The school said that parents didn’t make the payments they agreed to. I can only share what I personally had to do once. I had something come up, and figured that I’d be unable to pay my tuition for a short period. I contacted the school immediately. I explained the situation, and proposed deferring payments until I was able to pay it again, with the missed payments being spread over a few months (we set a dollar amount, and the number of months would depend on the number of missed payments). The school was extremely appreciative that I was proactive and reached out to them, and that I wasn’t trying to get out of having to pay – I just needed different terms. I was also very appreciative that the school was willing to work with me – that takes a situation that is already very stressful, and removes one major source of stress from it.
People need to be responsible. If you can’t pay, then you need to say so. You may not always get the answer you’d like, but at least you’re being honest.The only way a frum family can hope to survive in Lakewood is if at least one parent (preferably two) has a high paying professional job.
My understanding is that Lakewood rabbis have blocked any establishment of a frum college such as Touro College in Lakewood.
Meanwhile many of the frum stores employ foreigners (probably many illegal aliens) for low paying retail jobs.
Add to this the fact that Lakewood Jews are told to vote Democrat, even as the NJ Democrats prohibit any private school vouchers.
It seems that the irresponsible Lakewood rabbinic leadership owns this problem of frum poverty in Lakewood.
If Lakewood Jews want to survive there, they must boot out the so-called rabbinic leadership that has brought the current disaster.
@The little I know: You are right that those commentators who blame parents without knowing the specifics of the deadbeat parents are inappropriate.
I do believe that they are trying to point out that it is very POSSIBLE that some parents have a misguided value system, knowing what we do about the high levels of gashmiyus in that community. Are there people in Lakewood who struggle to get by financially? Of course. Are there people who are actively looking for a job or who have unexpected medical expenses,unfornutaly yes.No one has done a real study to see whether there is a solid correlation between people blowing gobs of money on mishegas and those who are not fulfilling their basic parental duties. But it is fair topoint out that the spending in Lakewood must stop. Even if you pay full tuition, if your kid’s school is struggling, it is time for you to hold off on the extravagances and help pay for more important things.
If you don’t think that people in Lakewood are blowing money left and right, go into any of the following and tell me they are not doing a booming business
fancy eateries
high-end eyeglasses stores
high-end children’s clothing stores
Simcha halls
car leasing
home remodeling services (kitchens, etc.)
etc.Rightjew should go a midbar and proclaim his terrible advice to all interested parties and leave us alone …
why is a yeshiva news site publicizing such drivel ?
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.Rocky:
I do not reside in Lakewood, and have no reason to challenge you. I will report that a question was asked of the Roshei Yeshivos at Torah Umesorah some years ago regarding a yeshiva expelling a talmid whose parents were not paying tuition. Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky shlit”a responded by sayiong that this was unquestionably ossur. He stated that he is asked this question often, and has never approved this. He did say there was one exception, and noted that this happened only once. A family had purchased a new luxury car that year, went away to E”Y for Pesach with the entire family costing a fortune, and still claimed hardship for tuition. Here, the Rosh Hayeshiva said they could refuse to accept the talmid for the following year, but not to expel. Again, I do not live in Lakewood. My report is something that occurred quite some years ago. The magnitude of living beyond one’s means is not something I can address factually. It is wholly possible that this has gotten worse over the years.
The Rabbinical leadership of Lakewood can’t do anything about this until they return from Morocco.
@The Little I know: Thank you for your level-headed response. However, I don’t think your story is relevant to this case or to the topic at hand. You are dealing with an unscrupulous individual. That is a different situation, and I agree that the child should not suffer beacuse of the sins of the parents.
The subject at hand is an entire school in a city that has many, many other schools. Apparently, according to the story, many parents did not come through on their obligations. I am sure that there are many parents who were paying full tuition, and perhaps even more than that, who ended up being punished alongside the deadbeats. Perhaps some deadbeats had valid explanations why they could not come through.
It is very possible that many other mosdos are suffering from the issue, but it has not reached such a public, drastic outcome. What is crazy is that we constantly hear that there are not enough spots for girls in the Lakewood schools. Here we have a group of courageous people who went through the trouble of starting a school to help alleviate that crunch, only to get messed over.
As an outsider, it seems that the city needs an overhaul of attitudes. If you want quality education for your children, great. Don’t think it comes free and don’t be surprised that tuition costs are rising if the standards of the town are also rising. Teachers need to be paid a living wage. Attitudes on spending need to change. Don’t go spend $500 on eyeglasses or $100 on kids’ shoes, takeout food, custom suits for kids, etc., and then be surprised that you don’t have enough left for tuition. And yes, perhaps even your spending on mitzvos should take a second look. Do you really want to prioritize that super muhar esrog and super expensive matzos over the chinuch of your children?
I think the mayseh with the great RY RAK is appropriate. During sefirah , the RY started an appeal with the words באחד באדר משמיעים על השקלים so someone raised the issue that we are in Iyar now. Ay the RY said but by us we are still holding in Adar. והמבין יבין
@Yankel Berel:
Your demand to censor truthful opinions demonstrates what a true Democrat you are.
Instead of banning me, if you really cared about the Lakewood frum community, you would demand that the Lakewood rabbis allow Touro college to open a branch in Lakewood.
Or if you prefer to be a black hat Democrat, you could report to a NJ Democrat headquarters and thank them for transferring massive amounts of state money to the Democrat illegal alien voting base, while prohibiting any private school vouchers for US citizens.
I don’t know the whole story, (and not sure whether I want to know), but there should be more here.
Let’s say it is a great school and suddenly half of parents do not pay. Maybe they all worked under the same dude selling Amway or selling iphones to each other on Amazon. So, what stops the school from adjusting – combining classes – same or sequential years – and finish the year this way? It is more likely that the parents were not happy with something in school.
Overall, our educational system is not fully competitive the way gemorah describes it – where everyone can open a home-based school and neighbors can’t complain. That is, unlimited competition to enable poor parents to afford a teacher. Our schools are vertically integrated – doing multiple classes – and often create niche monopolies by specializing in hashkofa. That is, the parents have very little choice and that choice comes in big decisions and high switching costs.
Alternative ideas:
– encourage small schools that do one or small number of years – so that it is easy to start a new one. Rav Ruderman and Rav Kamenetsky had an insensitive 2nd grade rebbe in their litvish town – but it was one year only. Next year was a different rebbe in a different yard.– tzedokah and subsidies should go directly to parents rather than to schools, so parents should bring money with them to the school of their choice. This is school voucher system that exists in many states.
– maybe money should follow the individual teachers, based on parent feedback. Again, enables teachers to switch schools if they are not rteated well.
@RightJew
Lakewood has PCS courses which is better than Touro. In 18 months one can get themselves an accounting degree and many have gotten jobs in the big 4. That takes 4 years at least in Touro bec of the 150 credits. Aron Kotler also has a connection with Noah Feldman form Harvard Law. He quietly takes 2 lakewood guys every semester. Touro is kind of outdated and just not relevant. By the way, I attended Touro form lakewood so I know.In general, you also have to know if college educated jobs are the way to make a living today. Again Ill say I work in a highly regarded field. The pay hasn’t caught up with inflation especially jewish inflation even though companies have made record profits. There is also the fact that within our community there is an ingrown economic stratosphere where someone with talent may do better. This didn’t exist 30 years ago as much. Its debatable if that’s the path to go in todays society.
I know that as of today this has been worked out and Bh the school reopened. But here is whats’ lacking form the conversation, Bnos penina served a purpose that most schools didn’t. Its there to accept almost all parents who just don’t have the protecttzia and connections to get into other schools. Its rat race to get into school and this offered an option to good parents who just don’t have that. The problem then arises, that The school becomes not the most fashionable school. If there isn’t competition to get in and maybe some parents are less shtultzy then the guys with money don’t send there. Now here is the thing. Most schools in Lakewood, rely on fundraising and donations to survive. They can’t do it just on tution. So how does the rich guy give money to? Where their children go and where its the “in place” to be honored by the dinner. Sadly the world works on kovod. So i don’t believe that parents pay less or don’t pay here compared to other schools. They just don;t have rich supporters.
Whats really needed, get together the rich guys have them fund the schools in town that aren’t out there for the rich. The ones that are inclusive and aren’t as hard to get in. of course if the school is dysfunctional they may feel like why give. But if its a fine school and money is the issue the askanim have a responsiblity to davka fund these schools first. They are the ones that deserve it
Why don’t friends just get together, make a class for each neighborhood and pay one teacher
Sadly, there’s another school I was told that is closing – Bnos Basya. They didn’t have enough enrollment to continue.
This school is run under the guidance of R’ Bender shlita, and was founded to ensure that EVERY girl can be accepted, not just the best or brightest. This is R’ Bender’s derech.
Yet in Lakewood, it appears that such a school can’t succeed. Parents only want their girls to be with the best. It’s a sad statement on how things are in Lakewood.Chaim,
true all schools everywhere need to rely on donations, but tuition is the starting point …Let’s put two of your questions together – is it worth going to college? can we pay tuition? your answers seem to contradict each other – there are great ways to do without college and, no, we dont have money to pay for schools… there is no same answer for everyone, of course, but college is a proven way to get good pay & benefits at minimal risk for a large swath of middle class. Going into business involves risk, which may be hard for a head of a family and leads to ethical dilemmas in how you treat other people and taxes. Ideally, one should get education and have a solid profession and then go into business – whether in the same profession or otherwise. Then, there is no yetzer hara to do something wrong as you have a profession to fall back on. This is nothing new – it is in gemora Kiddushin 30something + last page.
Touro is a good tool for people who are not fully prepared at high school and can get reasonable education in kosher environment. Online and diploma mill is also a good tool, provided it is not a total scam. I know people who post-lakewood planned to go into health sciences or even MD, they have talent, interest, and support of their hopeful wives – but often lack skills in reading and math to pass exams, so they spend several years, trying to get in.
rescue is right here. You don’t need to have a full school, just organize 1-2 years together. Presumably, we have parents who went through yeshivas and seminaries, so it should not be a problem for limudei kodesh. One interesting option for secular studies is an online school. Some states have online public schools. I am not sure what NJ offers, but even paid ones are not expensive (and lobby NJ to open public ones if they dont). Kids can then study together, but also separate if they are at different levels.
” college is a proven way to get good pay & benefits at minimal risk for a large swath of middle class. : That’s been true in the past but likley no longer the case. I work at a college educated job. It hasn’t kept up with inflation. What worked in the past is less true now. I say “less true” because obviously you can’t piant a broad brush. But between student debt and the high cost of living for jews, with the low pay in corporate, it makes less and less sense (Pun intended). On top of all that, thanks to AI,, outsourcing etc entry level jobs are scarce in corporate. Its just not what it used to be. So many college educated people are stuck working as Uber drivers. If you look at the blogs on reddit etc you’ll see the chatter. The dream of a college education landing a job is just not so strong anymore.
There is also the kollel affect. That means assuming you also don’t want to revert back to 50 years ago where one attends college and works at 21/22, the pay never starts high enough compared to costs. Topping that off, is that there are so many in house opportunities within our community where one can start off with a nice paransa, So when you combine all that it makes very little sense for a BMG guy to go to college. Re the gemara in kiddushin, yes teaching someone a trade is not necessarily college.
Re the merits of Touro, this is a distraction but honestly, I see very little value aside for the here and there. FDU accounting gets you to the same place. Any lack of reading skills, you’ll learn on the job. You know have char GPT to help you learn how to compose proper emails and memos. (I didn’t use it for this comment, henceforth tons of grammar and spelling errors. But I use it daily) And so that skill is not needed as much to succeed anymore.
Ill end off with your beginning because that’s the key. ” is it worth going to college? can we pay tuition?” I went to college and have a prestigious job. I cannot afford the true cost of tuition. Thankfully my children’s schools have a wealthy donor base. I wish i could give more
.
Whatever difficulties Lakewood schools have, it is far far better than the Modern Orthodox towns where their schools refuse to accept anyone who doesn’t agree to pay about $80,000 per year, per student. And will be quick to throw their Jewish children out of school, and force them into public school, if the parent is too far behind on tuition because they can’t keep up with the prodigious and extortionate pricing.
Is there then any wonder that the MO OTD rate, per MO Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, is in the neighborhood of 50% of the MO youth?
DaMoshe, could such schools run on a small budget while the emregency is ongoing?
pulling several classes together? classes in homes instead of a separate building?It is time for a bit of truth serum in your Hareidi bubble world.
It appears your comments are misleading.“In 18 months one can get themselves an accounting degree”
According to the PCS website, their accounting program is a Master’s Degree which requires a bachelor’s degree to enter that program.
So the total study time would be longer than a 4 year program at Touro.“there is an ingrown economic stratosphere”
In fact many Hareidi businesses are based on a business model of employing mostly low paid, low skill workers.Frum Jews who seek a middle class income will often have to work for non-Jews or for the government.
Right Jew,
You are, of course, wrong. And I say this with firsthand knowledge. One can get a master’s from PCS within 18 Months, which includes finishing the undergrad. It is hard work, but it is done. Often. To great success.
Besides the many low paid low skilled workers, they also have many high paid workers as well.
I know so many people who used to work at large firms in NYC who have moved to Lakewood because besides eliminating a long commute, they are getting paid much better. Yes, this too, I know as fact from first hand experience.
You are wrong. I am sure you are a low life who would spread falsehoods like this to YouTubers.
@RightJew
You get a bachleors from BMG so no you don’t need 4 years of college like Touro. Thats the truth. You need to take a few pre reqs which they do in 3 months and then the degree. So maybe its 21 months, I knows 10’s of people who did it this way. This is the facts.“In fact many Hareidi businesses are based on a business model of employing mostly low paid, low skill workers.”
Again I invite you to drive down Ave of the Americas in Lakewood and see for yourself. Tons of decent paying jobs for men. Now mathematically it may be less then I earn. I get a nice 401K etc. But they get the car under the business, tuition paid for by the business and other nice perks. On a anet basis they do betterThe one issue with the Lakewood concept which I agree with you on is the following. My feeling is that we are in a bubble. i can’t tell you if its 1yr, 5yrs, 10uyrs or 20yrs. (Hopefully its 20 and then its less of an issue). Many of the high end professions in our eco system are based off leverage. Real estate already popped but not fully. Nursing homes, mental health facilities etc.. all aren’t just staying afloat via filling beds. There is alot of churning , borrowing, leasing the land underneath etc. If the banks stop lending we are in big trouble. The other big industry is the govt stuff like ABA therapy etc. Say the govt cracks down on that and/or mental health funding etc. again we are in trouble. Its true that the whole economy would be in trouble too. You need fewer lawyers and accountants in 2008. But there is always a base thats fundamentally needed In this case, the whole thing could topple and it is fragile
Chaim,
if your degree is somewhat underwhelming: no english in HS, then BA from a yeshiva, and 18-month low-level MS, then your ability to do a job and earing potential is lower than someone from a good college. Then, you claim that working in business and getting business perks beats that salary/ Of course …
and even with that – writing off personal car and tuition as a business expense – this is not what my accountant approves …Your impression that “things changed” is based on the fact that larger number of people now go to college, so the lower-level college grad is less impressive than before. As to AI, I agree the future effect is unclear, but, as of now, people who have better education and cognitive skills benefit more from using AI.
On Kiddushin, I agree that profession is not the same as degree – there are professions that do not require degrees, and there are degrees that don’t lead to professions. But, on average, reasonable college degrees lead to respectable ehrliche professions.
As to Kollel, it is personal choice to get oneself into a pretzel to get to marriageable age without having a defined profession, losing out on decades of future learning in comfortable conditions, and pushing the wife to deal with work and children, and children being taught by strangers.
Also ai will take many jobs prob like…..data entry….prob bubble will pop soon ish maybe
@Always_Ask_Questions
” your ability to do a job and earing potential is lower than someone from a good college”But thats factually not true. I know a ton of accountants who did just that and landed at the big 4, which is the most prestigious firms. So it is equal to those who attended regular colleges. T even know a few BMG Harvard law grads. And so in our community there isn’t a strong correlation between the two, albeit the correlation is not at 0%.
(As a side note, with AI today, proper grammar skills or well polished presentations are much easier to obtain without schooling)
The real issue is that even those highly college educated just don’t pay enough. The Jewish jobs pay better. Your accountant may not approve of that kind of pay, but mine does and so do many others. You may see it as morally wrong but its completely legal.
Re the percent of college gards rising, yes that may play a role in why there are fewer entry level jobs but its not the key reason. As per chat GPT below are the key factors. But before I list them let me say, it circles back to the point I am making. There is a larger barrier than ever to obtain entry level jobs in the secular world overall. Thats yet another reason why college is a bit outdated. It doesn’t offer the assurances and security that it used to. By the way there are alot more layoffs than years ago too. Throw that in the mix. Frum jobs offer much more job security. Now back to my notes from Chat Gpt.
Yes — rising bachelor’s and STEM attainment increases competition somewhat.
But the recent difficulty in entry-level hiring is more likely driven by:
Economic tightening
Sector-specific slowdowns (especially tech)
Employer risk aversion
Skill mismatchRe Kollel, just to clarify, the idea that one should just get a degree so they have a “defined profession” and then they can sit and learn till they work is not realistic and misses the boat too. I work in corporate and have interviewed entry level applicants. If they got a degree 5-10 years ago and first now are applying for a job, its a huge question mark. Where were you till now especially if you are so passionate about your career? Its usually a red xx before you start. Companies hire and recruit seniors in college. Furthermore, life changes and interest changes. Many of my friends got their accounting degrees at young ages and never used it because by the time they went to work at 28 or 30, life and interests changed. Disclaimer, you are perhaps arguing that one should get a degree and go to work at 21. I think thats very flawed. One should not be working till they actually need the money especially at a young age when they need to still grow and lay a torah fundation. You are also advocating like a complete society reset that will never happen. This doesn’t mean that your wife works like a slave and many go to work before that.
All in all, the point remains that given the torah system we live in, going to college is a minor benefit for many. It isn’t as valuable as it used to be. It also won’t help us pay full tution. As a college grad in a very prestigious profession, I can attest that I can’t afford full tuition
Chaim, I’ll answer your points in random order:
> As a college grad in a very prestigious profession, I can attest that I can’t afford full tuitionFirst, “full tuition” is not what a normal person is expected to pay. “full tuition” is a starting negotiating point that includes payments for others who are not. I once negotiated for the first time with a yeshiva rep directly instead of disclosing all my income on irs-long forms, as is my minhag. We did not know each other well, so he looked at me. I said 30%? His eyes went dim and sad. I saved him from a heart attack as I immediately clarified – I mean 30% discount, not paying 30% of full… whoever saves one life ….
Of course, college is not a guarantee of anything. But look up unemployment rates and salaries – college-educated ones are better off. And, even more important, your life is more predictable and you don’t worry about things and can live an ehrliche Torah lifestyle. It is interesting that you volunteer as significant part of your compensation questionable write-offs. And I think you define “legal” as “very low chance of being caught”, which is not the same thing. I also have a (professional) business and can write things off, but my yetzer hara is significantly less because I would not need illegal actions to have a livable wage. And it is the nature of business where your added value is in your ability to hustle only, that you live off the margin and it is very tempting to increase margins significantly by playing with IRS or by underfeeding your nursing home residents. When you are paid for your ability to perform heart surgeries, there is way less of yetzer hara to do something shady.
On kollel, you raise an interesting question. The right answer is known from gemora times, of not before – a talmid chacham has a job or a business, spends several hours a day earning a living, and learns the rest of the day. The market gives talmidei chachamim early access to sell on the market so that they don’t waste their time, etc. Seemingly nobody lives this way our days. People either first don’t work and then scramble to earn any way they can, or if they start earning, they work at least 40 hours a week, if not more. I am not sure why we can’t find the middle ground? student loans? lack of proper middos?
> Many of my friends got their accounting degrees at young ages and never used it because by the time they went to work at 28 or 30,
I don’t know many people who did a degree and then went to kollel. But I do know people who first learn, then learn, then go for undergrad, and some even aspire for higher degrees after that. So, it is either wife first juggling the family while the husband is learning, then while the husband is going to medical school, or shidduch resumes with “could you support him for the next 5 years”. Weird.
> One should not be working till they actually need the money especially at a young age when they need to still grow and lay a torah fundation.
I understand why we want young people to learn. Both idealistically and for protecting them from assimilation. But don’t pretend that it is “normal”. Rambam puts it simple – get a job, buy a house, then marry. Starting working only at the moment you actually need money, rather than preparing and progressing through life is opposite of smart.
> You are also advocating like a complete society reset that will never happen.
This is an important point. Jewish society did not live like that until 100 years ago. I think that what historically started as a horaas shaaa, protecting from bad influences, created a lot of successes, and modern democracies provided welfare state that allows people to use (or abuse) it. As a result, you are now talking about “complete society reset” for simple things like working. Practically speaking, you are right, things change gradually – people with limited skills going to diploma-mills and Touro are trying to improve situation. Hopefully, they will not be afraid to teach their own kids some math & english in high school.
Always ask questions where are you getting your info from.
All of america go to college and now their steeped in debt without a job. College is a scamrescue et al. here is 2024 statistics from Current Population Survey Annual Social and Economic Supplement (CPS ASEC)
median worker income: high school $50K, Bachelor and higher $90K2022 for 25-34 y.o:
high school $41K (men $46K), ass degree $49K ($54K) , bachelors $66K ($75K), master or higher $80K ($89K)@Always_Ask_Questions
Full Tuition means what it really cost per child without the need to fundraise. There are usally 3 sometimes 4 prices. The above and beyond price (i.e 15K) the cost to fully cover your child (i,e 12K) , the reduced price (i.e 10K) and then a scholarship price. I can only afford the scholarshop price albeit I don’t give the lowest on that list.“Look up unemployment rates and salaries That data isn’t relevant for frum jews where there is both an in community organic growth, we take more risks and affordblity is different.
Re Legal. No I define legal as a loophole where you look at it as shady morally but its completely legal based on the law.
Re the yetzer hara to “cheat” bec you don’t have a career. I hate to say this but the cost of living is so high, that I have the same yetzer hara and I have a college educated career. I don’t think it has to do with the nature of your job. It may be cultural as I have a hunch you are from a more modern orthodox background. That is somehting I respect about the MO community where this is more of a focus. But I don’t buy that its dependent upon the type of career path chosen.
On kollel, yes sadly the way its structured you can’t really work 5 hours a day and learn the rest. Although with remote work and some “lakewood” jobs thats doable., Most jobs are 9-5 (college or not college educated). Perosnally, I view my 401K as a savings account where I hope to retire young so I can sit and learn. Rather less luxury now but put away for then. Its not exactly the same as learning today but its the most sensible within our system where there is a tax benefit and often a company match. I don’t think the proper thing is, to have 21 year o0lds go to work so that they establish their career before hand. Sure you’ll probably dig up some gemaras, but its not applicable for today. Most boys unless they can’t learn need to be in yeshiva till they need a paransa. That’s more more important than establishing a career. Despite what it gives up. b yes ponting to the rabam and comparing it to today isn’t relevant. I know 100 years ago this wasn’t done but its different times,. I don’t have the correct words how to phrase it but it just sin’t the right approach for today.
Re your data, about the success of college, again that was Pre AI and post covid where there was a sicllon valley tech bubble that has now popped. It also less relevant to the frum community
Chaim
> That data isn’t relevant for frum jews
Well, it is a baseline. If you have better numbers, bring them. You may be correcting, saying if a Yid runs a store, he will be more profitable … but then if the same smart Yid runs a financial firm, he might also do it better.> where you look at it as shady morally but its completely legal based on the law.
As we are both afraid to bring specific examples, I am not sure if we disagree. In general, US tax law is non-patriotic – there is no mitzva to pay more. So, everything legal is fine. Say, if I can hire my kid and can justify his salary according to going rate, even if he would not be able to find such a job somewhere else, it is fine. But if he is not actually doing anything, that is not ok, even if IRS most likely is not going to check it out. Or count how many miles I am driving for business.> I have the same yetzer hara and I have a college educated career.
Say, I have a professional business. I am paid $100K for my expertise + I earn $50K from profit from my workers + $20K by tweaking car and home expenses. These $20K are 10% of my income. If I want to increase my earning, I’ll be better off hiring 2 more assistants and do more business instead of finding loopholes. If I’ll want to do a worse product by spending less time, I am risking doing a professional mistake and ruining my application. So, I am mostly busy with my yetzer tov, trying to provide better service.Now, if I have a business buying widgets for $900K and then selling them for $1M and paying $50K for 2 assistants – my profits are just $50K.
BUT if I hire an illegal; if I pay my workers in cash; if I use worse quality goods – I can double or triple my income with zero effort. Of course, I am tempted. And if everyone in this business is doing the same – you may not be able to survive working honestly.Re: business. A shochet came to R Salanter and said that he can’t bear responsibility any more – one mistake and the whole city would eat treif. He wanted to quit and go into business. R Salanter exclaimed – you are afraid of aveiros dealing with a beheima, and you are not afraid of all potential aveiros doing business?!
chaim > Most jobs are 9-5 (college or not college educated).
I don’t think so. There are a lot of p/t jobs and there are a lot of jobs that involve working with multiple clients. It is just in practice, nobody seems to be willing to take 50% load when they can do more. Maybe, we are afraid for future – and most mussar says it is wrong – earn for today and quit …
I am included. I could easily live from what I earn 2 days a week. Not sure about the wife, but she’ll probably be ok. But it seems crazy to reject clients coming your way … not sure what the solution is … I am open to solutions. One option, of course, is to do your job full of mitzvos and learning – either working in chinuch or do like a doctor in Taanis – treat people well – this is way easier in our times. There are so many jobs in health care, police, defense, writing software that is doing something good for humanity.Chaim > . Most boys unless they can’t learn need to be in yeshiva till they need a paransa. That’s more more important than establishing a career.
I understand the motivation behind this system, but at some point, thisis ridiculous. How many years of learning, travel to EY, is required to train a person to become observant and a life-long learner!? Maybe something is wrong in families where this is happening. From experience -we moved away some of my kids from a “frum” high school to avoid negative influences, and when some teachers met the kids a couple of years later,bli ayn harah, they were like “wow, you are still frum”. Our kids just stared back, they did not know what to answer… For these teachers, it was axiomatic – someone not following their “system’ is destined to be lost. Not that they tried to contact them in between, invite for shabbos or something …
MO does the same. R Lebowitz somewhere describes MA program in Talmudic studies: parents want them to go to Law School ASAP, and if you have a yeshiva gap year, the law schools will not look kindly at that. So, to keep boys learning for another year, we give them MA … Maybe, it was tongue-in-cheek …
At the same time, I know kids from serious families who have no problem going to a mid-level college and keeping serious seder at the same time. Maybe this derech is not for everyone, but surely this could be applied to more people if the public mood would consider it as normal as other ways.
> success of college, again that was Pre AI and post covid where
post-covid is not relevant. I looked at timeline. Numbers are same as they were 20 years ago. In fact, most interesting that there is just several percentage difference in 20 years – slightly higher for college jobs and almost no change for non-college.
Re: AI. If it will take away all the jobs, then we can all sit and learn and this debate will be over. Realistic prediction – technology trend is such that a small number of people produce a lot of effect. An inventor brings way more to economy than an erliche shop owner. A SW developer develops code that can be used to service millions of people. That is why educated people are paid more – because there are more very productive people among them. So AI will make the small number of very smart people even more productive, and it will pay to be one of them.
@Always_Ask_Questions
when i say\ the data re college grads is not or rather less releavnt for frum jews, I mean re oppurtunties. For a non jew without a degree where is he working? Who hires someone without a degree in the secular world? But in our own homegrown economy, mnay get hired with well paying jobs in non colllege degree fields too. Nursing home admins are a great example but thats only one of many. So the study about the salary gap college vs non college grads is less applicable for frum jews. And many of those eran just as much as people in my feild which is highly regarded. Whats more, in my feild there is a ceiling. So maybe after 7-8 years if real savvy you become a director. For AVP or more you need to be real savvy, slick and play the corp game. Even then the job security is fragile. They cut senior positions much quicker than the mid level postion who does the heavy lifiting. And so you cap out at say 200-250 after bonus with all on the books. Contrast that to a regional director at a nursing home, making 250K plus free car leases and other business expeneses which is a huge perk that brings the value way above 300K.Fair point re the fact that as a business owner its hard to even survive without being gray bec many competitors are that. I concede on that one. But not everyone is a business owner and I think since it still exists in every field, college or not, that reasoning isn’t compelling in my mind. (as a side note, i know wealthy college educated who are pretty big ganavim too and sat or almost sat in jail)
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