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Always_Ask_Questions
Please name a field thats part time and earns a decent salary even non college educated. That doesn’t exist. You have fields where hours are flexible here and there . That enables these richies to run off to R Shayla for a week, then yrachai kallah for a week. But I don’t know too many that allow that kind of split other than a heimisha store owner who can open at 11 (maybe he selles fleiwhig takeout)
I do agree that I think it would be crazy to reject clients so you only open twice a week. Your solution is great. But I’d add, although noone can predict , IYH you will live till 120. The solution I think is to juice up your 401K. Then at 59.5 retrire and sit and learn all day. There are people I know that did this. I know PS teachers that had juicy pensions and became big talmedi cahchimim via that.
Re the yeshiva system, to my point lets take an accontant. They only need 18 maybe 20 months of college via FDU at PCS. But they need 4 years of yeshiva credits (maybe its 3). I dont see the gain mathametcilly in making them sit in college for 4 years at Touro or Brooklyn college. why not learn full time? Similarly law school grads. I know BMG guys who went to Harvard law. Aron kotler is buddies with Noah Feldman and gets in 2-3 per semester. No Bachelors others than BMG . The only condition is that you need to obtain at least a 177 on the LSAT (I may off be one digit but something like that) The lawyers less smart attend Rutgers but its gets done via BMG. Again why sit in college. I see no point in college other than the parnsa it brings. Otherwise college isa cesspool with anti israel and kefirra . Its mostly nonsense. I Learned much more on my job and slef teaching, (including self trained computers) vs college.
Now lets say you attend college for 4 years after HS (maybe you lean a year first so its 5 years). Now you are 22 and single. Should they go to work before they need to? What about the non tznuis aspect for youngsters? I work in corporate. Its not the boggy monster people say about it. But at the same time the youngsters do hang out together and have a life. This isn’t 100 years ago when you went to work on your farm or printing press.
Post Covid, sure there was a hiring boom not reflective of the silicon valley bubble thats not busting quickly
Re AI, it will takeaway alot of entry level jobs. the savvy ones will now be the ones setting up the AI commands for those their senior levels. They may have to be able to mix coding (python and R) with AI skills. Thats the way forward. Its for sure a huge disruptor particularly on the entry level.This all circles back to the idea that after this whole back and forth, the idea of college degrees for frum jews is questionable if there is a benefit. We definitely don’t believe there is a need for education purposes. There is only a need for parnasa. Now this is where I will agree with you a bit and say that our minds should be more open to college. I mean to say that its really person independent. Some wll make great accoutants. It saddens me a bit that when i started, it was “with it’ to become accontants via FDU. . Now thats less “in”. Its still full but people aren’t banging down the door like they used tyo. I think its a great degree even if you work for frum people. But at the end of the day, many jobs don’t need a degree and we have our won homegrown economy. And I don’t think college wholistically will solve our affordbility issues or that so many of charedim would do so much better. its marginal and helpful some of the time.
I just want to add for those reading this and especially in the Lakewood area. Accounting use to mean working for the big 4 in downtown till 1 AM during tax season when you don’t see your family from shabbos to shabbos. That has somewhat changed.
1) Now even the big 4 have a hybrid remote apporach. Maybe the first year or two you have to come in. But once you prove yourself, you can come in 2-3 times a week only.. You’ll still need to put in those long billable hours but alot more can be done remotely.
2) There are much more frum options out there as our homegrown economy has expanded BH. So fewer have to work for the big 4.
3) The frum jobs used to be mostly in the city too. Now most are in Lakewood with beautful buildings long ave of the americas@Always_Ask_Questions,
Re job security for college educated:Morgan Stanley is laying off roughly 2,500 employees as job cuts continue this year in the financial sector. Like other firms, Morgan Stanley aggressively hired during the pandemic, going from 60,000 employees in 2019 to 82,000 employees by year end 2022. The company had 83,000 employees at the end of 2025.
Tens of thousands of job cuts have already been made just two months into the new year, many of them white dollar. The financial sector has not been immune.
Citigroup and Blackrock have reportedly trimmed back their headcounts, and last week, financial technology company Block,
chaim> but in our own homegrown economy, mnay get hired with well paying jobs in non colllege degree fields too.
I agree. But as I mentioned, we have similar advantages in other fields. You have Jewish connections and family knowledge in various fields. If a family is 3 generations of lawyers or doctors or MBAs, the kids know about the field and can get internships way better than a random 1st-generation MD. I work in a different engineering field than my father, but he was able to give me a wise advice when I described direction I was taking.
> Fair point re the fact that as a business owner its hard to even survive without being gray
That was my main point. Obviously, not every college-ed is a tzaddik and other way around, but as I mentioned when your value is based on your professional knowledge, the yetzer hara is less. And it affects whole line of business, so even if you are not a business owner, then you work for a business owner who does something shady and you may have to be part of it.
Back to the doctor in Taanis who had 7x more heavenly court visits than Abaye – great things he did are really possible to arrange in our times: treat patients with respect, maintain tzniyut, do not see what they pay. And hopefully do better than bloodletting … If you can become a doctor like that – what better job can you have?
Chaim> Please name a field thats part time and earns a decent salary even non college educated.
accountants working for themselves; bookkeepers; SW developers; college professors; nutritionists; physical therapists; maybe postal workers? plumbers;
PS teachers that you mentioned sounds good – even when working full time, you get whole summer when you can learn and a weekend.
on accounting – I know closely my business accountant. He is working for himself, not big 4, serving small/mid-size businesses. He is indeed very busy during various tax deadlines, so I learnt not to bother him at that time.
on college – in theory, I agree with online education – most of my kids do that. But I am suggesting that you’ll get better parnosa if you actually learn “stuff”. Going to Harvard Law after BMG makes sense. Harvard medical school – not so much. But those graduating diploma mills – after having no-English schooling – are not necessarily well prepared. In theory, learning gemora should make you prepared deal with business issues, but in practice, many have hard time passing tests for their professions. There are many online colleges that are not very expensive and have reasonable programs – U of Florida, U of Oregon, Southern New Hampshire, Arizona State. I think they would be better choice than diploma mills for some (again, there are so many different cases, you can’t make one judgment here).
I agree on dangers of in-person college. My daas Torah, who was affiliated with OOT university, recommended sending kids to local colleges (his advice was against his own parnosa, so it was a real one :). In that sense, Touro and YU and Brooklyn college, esp honors, are great places.
> Now you are 22 and single. Should they go to work before they need to?
You don’t have to be. If you are on the way to getting a profession, or in MS/PhD degree, maybe even Rambam will agree that you can get married off student loans :). Maybe with 3.0 GPA.
On your question whether one needs college for more than parnosah. Depends on a person. I think for some people, it would not hurt to learn about the world. R Soloveichik did not seem to regret learning philosophy, that means he found it useful. Rambam knew greek and muslim science and philosophy.
You can see on this site, a certain segment of Jewish velt behaves sociologically very similar to other uneducated social groups – conspiracy theories; rejecting public health advice … so, something is missing in our educational system.On AI, see Rashi and Radak on Elisha’s encounter with naarim ketanim. Turns out these are “union members” who lost their water-carrying parnosa when Elisha cured water of Yericho. They are ketanim because they did not believe that Hashem will send them another parnosah and they would rather see people suffer but them keeping their jobs. As you sare saying, AI opens lots of opportunities to do things better and faster. Maybe work a day a week and then learn.
Now, what about AI answering teikus …
@Always_Ask_Questions
Participant
Re college, I don’t believe that attending an in person college makes someone wiser and more prepared in the working world. Definitely not Touro (not knocking them but I attended that). I could attest to that for a fact. I take many exams for my field and college did nothing for me. It was also a complete waste in term s of tech skills. Its just very abstract and removed from reality. i found it mostly a waste of time to be honest. I don’t see the value in college education. its highly overrrated. I compare myself to my colleges and don’t see their college as adding value either.The fact that many have this wacky anti vax or other odd theories, is more culture than college. Sadly the culture is more and more cult like. My hungarain grandparents with no college education wasn’t as weird.
The pofrssionals you mention most cannot parse thinsg to work part time. Even pirvate accountants, you just have to have your doors open for all. The world doesn’t work that way unless you are highly skilled and sought after you can’t only take 3 clients . Its just not craved that way. You are either full fledge or not credible
College is a scam.
Chaim,
on college – there is no one answer. different people have different abilities and interest. Most decent (top 50-100 in US reports) have capacity to teach professional skills. From what I hear, Touro is not there (yet?). YU is somewhat there. Having several good professors with whom you can interact can help a young person move in a right direction. Higher level seminars at top 50 universities give you access to world-class researchers. All weird stuff can be avoided by attending a local commuting college and attentive parenting.We discussed that professional work is less conducive to yetzer hara in mamanos. Another important aspect – yishuv daas. A professional is way more sure of his employment prospects and can focus on learning/family.
rescue, “if you think knowledge is expensive, try ignorance”
@Always_Ask_Questions
Re yishiv hadas, Thats no longer true. Corp America has constant layoffs and is not stable. I strongly feel for those in corporate that you need to focus on obtaining some kind of performance review that’s above average. It need not be the top but ikt should be even a dot above the middle. Thats the way al pi derech hateva to avoid getting chopped. But suffice it to say its not so stable out there.Re College prep, obviously its very field dependent and subject dependent. I just think anyone who is motivated can now learn that online too. And if not motivated you won’t gain those skills in college either
Your mixing up indoctrination with knowledge and ignorance with lack of indoctrination.
College isn’t knowledge it’s propaganda@@Always_Ask_Questions not every non college job today brings someone to a bigger test to lie. Mnay make a decent living without owning a business. The jewish economy is big enough. For example a nursing home administrator is a salaried job with no college degree, not a business owner and no incentive to steal more than an accountant . Both are a steady salary job. And so college is a bit passe in 2026. (I am all for it for some and its sad that its too belittled. But its not a need like it used to be)
Chaim > , Thats no longer true. Corp America has constant layoffs and is not stable.
not. comparable. I was laid off a couple of times rather unexpectedly, and baruch Hashem, it saved me from some years working for businesses that were on the way down. They really did chessed to those who they laid off earlier. Still, most professionals are doing “ok” after such things, even if they lose in status. You can’t argue about general statistics. Your response seem to be that it is different in Jewish community, and I hope it is, and it should be, but it is an onus on you to show those numbers.
> I just think anyone who is motivated can now learn that online too.
That goes about everything – Torah learning too … I am, and I was, internally motivated, but I do owe a lot to some of my professors who showed me different things I did not see on my own. When you are at work, you are focused on very specific tasks and yo can miss the big picture. I mean, two Yidden don’t need to argue that learning is important.rescue > College isn’t knowledge it’s propaganda
we are talking generalities here. Fill me in some details – how much propaganda is there in the 2nd year of calculus or organic chemistry?
in most technical undergrad programs, they mark up the propaganda – you need to take 2 classes in “cultural awareness” and 3 in “global culture” or something like that. Well-taught kids know what it is – and current administration works on having less of that. It is a waste of time & money, but it is what it is. You can try taking them in a cheap online college or even pull in some Jewish classes to qualify as “diversity”.
Alot of it is propaganda and alot of people are easily led astray by the stupidity that’s in there. Alot of sciences are manipulated, even having normal conversations with college educated people is like talking to indoctrinated out of touch unrealistic sheeple that use things like “straw man” and “watchmakers fallacy”
Missing the forest for the trees. Makes me question if any of it is worthwhile including going into debt before your 20 in order to get a job that might not pan outrescue, as I mentioned: in your – valid – criticism of college-educated people, just compare it with ignorance. Plenty of non-college-educated fall into a lot of logical pitfalls … starting from not being able to understand validity of sources, statistics, design of experiments, scientific method, etc. Can’t understand difference between a well-designed experiment v. anecdotes heard in a tiktok video.
One way to formulate your criticism – there is a difference between crystallized (learned skills) and fluid (ability to think) intelligence.
BUT educational level is positively correlated with IQ – from one study 1-5 IQ points per year of schooling. Is this due to self-selection or effect of college? check the original study or anything else like that.
How Much Does Education Improve Intelligence? A Meta-Analysis
Stuart J. Ritchie and Elliot M. Tucker-Drob
Sage Journal 2018 Volume 29, Issue 8
doi.org 10.1177/0956797618774253I don’t really understand what a discussion on College has to Bnos Penina
You don’t need to know sources and all that to have common sense conversations that’s part of the indoctrination. No offense.
I don’t need to know the original study to know that is collasally false. No offense. Look around you? Do the liberals look like they have a high IQ no they don’t. So please put that “study” in the bin it doesn’t mirror reality. ThanksYour talking undoctrination speak. Just because you can quote studies doesn’t mean you know how to critically think. Studies are manipulated propaganda from special interests most times and it’s an appeal to authority instead of fact. Observation, real life experience is a much better teacher. Please
rescue > Look around you? Do the liberals look like they have a high IQ no they don’t.
Not everyone with college degree is liberal, or have high IQ… It is hard for me to judge, indeed – I do not know many people with bachelor degrees, so what I observe personally may not generalize to overall population – that is why I am reading studies.
In my observation, highly educated people have a large subset of very smart people. It is true many exhibit signs of “schooling” – they are way more reasonable when they talk about their profession but less in others. Still, many who are teaching or doing research full-time can have interesting Torah discussions, comparable to Talmidei Chachomim, but much smaller number of non-college educated non-T Ch can do the same,
rescue > Studies are manipulated propaganda from special interests most times and it’s an appeal to authority instead of fact. Observation, real life experience is a much better teacher.
I am not denying that there is propaganda in the world. At the same time, there are studies that are “observations” – conducted according to a protocol. When you read a proper study and look at the authors’ other work, and, if needed, can contact the authors to clarify, and sometimes having data published openly – you can find good observations. So, if you want your opinion to be taken seriously in this debate – you should open some studies and read them inside.
Rocky> I don’t really understand what a discussion on College has to Bnos Penina
retracing the steps:
my conjecture was that the root problem is parents’ inability to pay for school because the community is lacking good jobs; and a college is a way for having good erliche jobs for a wide swath of population. The other opinion is that people get by pretty well without college and .. hm. then I don’t know why they still can’t pay tuition … So, I am also lost by the claim that is not supported by facts!Always ask questions I agree with you. But don’t use studies against reality to the point that reality says one thing and studies say another. If studies are “observation” then use your own observations skills as well. I think that study that says education or indoctrination = higher IQ. It sounds nice on paper but so far if you look around you….I’m not sure it’s true lol
Authority and “science” and scientific observation is not the only thing people should be relying on. Common sense and their own observation of said facts and critical thinking are extremely important for discernment of facts.
The problem is with a lot of “educated” people, is especially college indoctrinated in the general sense, is that they see things on paper think it sounds good. Run with it to make and agree with pivotal life choices, but they don’t have enough experience or understanding of reality and discernment to see that the resume or the pretty ideologies on paper don’t translate the same in real life.And you can see this from people arguing about “communism”
“Abortion” just about anything that is indoctrinated speak. There’s lots of slogans “studies” but little fact so before jumping into studies take everything with a grain of saltAlways ask questions the entire world is lacking in good jobs also. I don’t think there’s a real fix for that. Soon ai is taking over and things are going to be…different….maybe better but different, also people should be looking into blue color work if they want a real job I think that’s the only jobs left on the market at this point
Always ask questions I hear your point but, I think your the one percent. I deal with college educated people _all_ day and all I can say is indoctrination is 100%
They think in very analytical terms yes. They say a lot of great words yes. They bring a lot of studies to the table yes but they are so disconnected from reality take an example I had recently arguing that God exists
The person who i was arguing with said something like: if you want to get to truth you can’t use logic
They brought up the watchmakers fallacy. The conversation from their end sounded on paper to be very intelligent _but_ they were missing something very important that made them completely delusional, real life experience, common sense.
They argued delusion to the point it sounded like truth, but it was so out of touch with basic realistic thinking. I think this is why God said don’t eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil cuz it makes a lot of people miss the point.rescue, I gave you a reference to one paper, and now we are discussing whether papers are worth reading in general. Maybe give us feedback on this or related papers, and then we will learn more about this interesting subject.
I’m not sure what your asking. A reference to what paper?
You don’t always need paper to tell you basic facts I think science got lost on me when I was reading about baking soda “science says baking soda is very harsh”
I don’t think science needs to spell out the obvious and for any thinking person science _is_ observation. Our eyes can also observe too and see patterns and come to conclusions without controlled settings and the like. So critically thinking first then use science to prove those points I guess. That’s what I do. Not the other way around. Science can easily be taken out of context and used to push an agenda. Reality is very important to know first so you can filter science correctly.Alot of health articles, even the whole transgender agenda is a lot of manipulated science. The entire system needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
The answer is simple.
Weddings are costing an arm and a leg. If all the rabbonim yeshivash and chassidish got together and forbid the crazy spending on weddings than parents would have money for tuition. Chassidic rebbes can enforce married women to shave their heads and not be allowed to drive. Yeshivash rabbonim can enforce various takonas having boys learn till 23 years of age and avoid getting married. Why can’t all these powerful leaders lay down the law on wedding expenses. If every wedding was simple it would cost top 3000 dollars. Yes three thousand dollars. Flowers should be in plastic not twenty thousand plus dollars. Music should be one keyboard. Wedding food with kugel and chicken and paper plates and cups. Nothing to be ashamed. Everyone must abide and confirm or get kicked out of the community. If some parent does not shave their head the kids are not allowed into the school system. It’s easy to enforce. Every wedding should have a Mashgiach to check if the wedding conforms. Rich people won’t mind saving a half million dollars on a wedding. They could se the money to buy the young couple a house instead.Flatbush, these are good ideas about takonos – what did your rav say about it?
But there is another way out of this vicious circle – become self-sufficient financially by working. Not only, this increases ability to pay, but also, ironically, decreases a desire for crazy spending. Let me explain: if the person depends on community support – reduced tuition, school principal paying your salary, etc, then there is an obvious desire to show oneself a loyal member of the community. This has good sides, keeping people conforming to religious norms, but it also generates the impulse to show off your dedication, including by creating such simchos. After all, if you don’t do that and don’t invite hoshuve people, then you will not be invited …
my kids brought the idea from school that they need to have special sholoch monos for their school teachers, including a good bottle of wine. Not because they love every teacher, but because “everyone shows kavod”. I suggested that they send to their friends and those kids that may not have many friends. We compromised on the teachers they like and even .. took several of their friends to … math teacher that nobody was planning to visit.
@Always_Ask_Questions,
Sorry I have been out of the loop a it. But to just to cricle back to your comment requiring data about employment in frum circles. Its not an onus on me to show numbers. That’s kind of an unfair ask when you know its both a new emerging trend and too small to provide data. I suspect you have never been to lakewood. But come and see the jewish commerce. Its full of people without college educations earning decent honest livings. Satmar has a similar enviornement. Its well known and seeing is believing. I’d venture to say you don’t have much family or freinds that work in this kind of enviornemnt. To you this seems odd and strange. To anyone outside they’d be like what without college you can earn an honest decent living? I live in both ciricles. I work in a secular enviornement (the only jew in my company of 5K employees). But I also see the other side. You don’t need numbers and I don’t need to show you. Go look for yourself. Its out in the open.Re layoffs, sure I have been laid off too. My point remains that at most corporations with college jobs, you are just a number. They don’t think twoice before they lay you off and its totally normal At one company I worked for they had layoffs every 6 months. I knew the week when it happens already. They also still kept on hiring new. They just like a revolving door. I even had a coworker who was chopped, a year later I see he IM me and says Hi. I am like what are you doing here? He tells me he waited 12 months after getting laid off (got I think like 40 weeks sevarance) and then was able to come back. An employee is a number in corporate and driven by their stock price. On the other hand most frum places (most not at all) relaize its your paranasa and unless there is a compelling reason they don’t just go and chop off employees. So job security is better by the frum “non educated”
That being said, I will say that there are some inhernet systeamic risks that frum can’t control. For exmaple if you are a real estate broker or mortgage broker/ underwriter and its 2007 many frum businesses just feel apart. It just dried up and there was nothing there. Meanwhile while accountants had a slow down and some got hurt, overall there was still basic need for some at least. So yes I agree there is a larger buuble risk. But in normal times it works.“there is another way out of this vicious circle – become self-sufficient financially by working” Ill just say once again that for a family of 5-6, one can’t be self sufficent with an accounting , computer, actuary or whatever degree they hold via working for corporater. I am one of those who earn a respectable salary but without the chesed of others I still wouldn’t be able to live. In order to be totally self sufficent one needs to earn at least 250K nowadays. Corp america doesn’t pay that unless you are a VP or SVP
The entire secular world has been taken over by big corporations and big box stores and the entire world is subservient to that. The Jewish world at least has their own businesses and everything stays insular. Even the basic pay in the Jewish world is much much more then pay elsewhere where the minimum wage isn’t livable.
Chaim,
I’ve been to lakewood and know people there, maybe not to degree you are. And I even know people who respond “I am not from Lakewood, I am from TOMS RIVER”.As I said, I agree with you that doing parnosa in Jewish community is often better than in a general one. Although, not always – if you are an only smart Yid in an Alabama village, you can have great business going. But, comparing apples-to-apples. You compare with big corporate world. You can also work for a smaller well-run company or have your own high-tech business (like I do). The focus is on difference in professional level:
compare being a corporate accountant v. being a salesman in a corporation
and compare running your own accounting shop with running your own candy storeand as you are saying – some trends hit low-educated (or generally, business) harder. I have a lakewood friend who was verry successful in RE untill it all got destroyed. But we are both just repeating gemora in kiddushin about trade v business. Old news.
So, family of 6 in NJm with $200K in W2, and $1mln home gets $2K/month after mortgage/transportation/utilities/food/etc, thanks chatgpt. That is enough to have 2-3 kids in private school or all 4 with some squeeze. Maybe suspend 401k or have wife or kids work a little and you are all set.
@Always_Ask_Questions
200K enough? You are kidding. We Kya have 6 at least, chat gpt doesn’t know about camps, or that a mini van costs 600 a month now, or that a frum girt needs a unifrom. I spend a nice few thousand just to start the shcool year between uniforms , sweaters, tznuis dresses, shoes etc. I am not even talking about a jewish wedding or the cost of seminary. No 200K is not enough and likley 250 is close too. Sure if the man earns 200 and the woman earns 75 we are OK. But its very tight, it takes 10 years to get there. And in corporate 200K take home pay is 120K. Suspending 401K is foolish. The compnay contributes if you contribute. yes you are forced to put in say 6% but why would you lose the 5% match they give? Thats alot of money to just give upChaim, here you go.
Either a parent could work in a camp, if he is underemployed, or better kids could work or volunteer in a regular or kiruv camp, or just spend the summer leisurely between a library and visiting grandparents. Seminary? Some of our daughters hold a grudge that they were not sent there – but they can’t point to anything their peers who went there acquired in ruchniyus that they don’t. Most kids can get a substantial number of clothes from older sisters if ou teach them how to take care of clothes. As our baby says : this is dress is “new to me”.
BTW, for a wedding, you can borrow from your 401k 50K after you got your match, or I heard you can even borrow against the 401k as an asset.
Anyway, given that you are listing camps and such as your spending problems, you are really not stressed at all.
And let’s not forget what the subject was – you are saying that because of some optional spending, you recommend changing ehrliche nice life as a professional, who has time to learn and have time with his family and turn into business where you are risking both money and olam haboh if you succumb to yetzer hora? I mean if you wan to risk it, at least have a high-tech startup with some possible upside.
I think people have a problem saying no. If you can’t afford camp….find an alternative?
Even the shidduch system is a little crazy, parents are forced to put down money and struggle so their kids can get a shidduch.
I feel like the world is upside down.
It says very clearly “honor your parents”
That means putting aside your own needs and letting them live with decency.
Backwards world
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