Bochrim Spray-Paint Over Not Tzniyus Advertisement

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  • #759849
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    GAW,

    Living in a free country doesn’t mean they have the right to deface property of others. Imagine if someone tampered with your mezuzah!

    The tarp is a better idea than the defacement, but there are better ways to go about removing the sign without causing such a chillul hashem.

    #759850
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJS:

    In this case, you are correct. However, if the “defacer” did not do anything unlawful, I would not be in the right if I took action. Complain, public pressure etc. might work, but it might not.

    Yes, if I would “desecrate the host” I would be stupid (Many Jews have been killed for much less), but if it wasn’t illegal (let’s say), there would not be much that a Catholic could do about it. And if he/she thought is was worth violence, then they would pay the consequences.

    (In general, I don’t go for a “what if the shoe was on your foot” type of argument.) I might not like it, but my personal feelings are not the point. Furthermore, if the athiest in question decided that he didn’t like my


    and illegally removed it, then he/she would be arrested (hopefully). That doesn’t make the doer feel (perhaps) that the action was any less worthwhile.

    Let’s bring this case specificly. If the Bochrim in question were arrested & thrown in jail for vandalism, would they still feel they did the right thing?

    #759851
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a tzniut sign in Kiryat Joel that many people do not like.

    What if someone from nearby went over to that sign (The Sign is on private property) and defaced it.

    Would you be in favor of this??

    #759852
    aries2756
    Participant

    Oh please, I just checked out the photos of the vandalism. This wasn’t a bus shelter. This was on a building. These heroes climbed up on a soda machine to actually reach this advertisement and even spray painted the faces of the models. They were wearing clothes, tops, dresses and pants, not underwear or bathings suits which is what one can assume from their actions. This whole entire billboard could have been ignored since one has to look up to see it. This was completely done out of mischief and not out of heroism. They are wrong and should be punished. They are no better than graffiti artists defacing other people’s property.

    #759854
    Grandmaster
    Member

    Halachicly gezel akum is not the aveira of gezeila, and one does not have to repay for gezel akum.

    #759855
    MDG
    Participant

    mbachur:

    could be i don’t know l’halacha but the gemara says a case where a tanna ripped off a goyishe girls shirt b/c it was untznius (he thought she was jewish) (I don’t remember where the gemara is)

    Berachot 20a – It was a un-tsniut hat. And yes, he had to pay a hefty fine, 400 zuz.

    But the Gemara mentions that as to why the earlier generations had miracles, because they were Moser Nefesh.

    #759856
    Grandmaster
    Member

    Let’s bring this case specificly. If the Bochrim in question were arrested & thrown in jail for vandalism, would they still feel they did the right thing?

    Absolutely. They would then catapult into Jewish Heroes who were moser nefesh for the Torah. They ought to proudly and prominently wear a big yarmulka and black hat as they are led into the police precinct (and court if necessary) joyfully singing “Moshe Emes V’Torahsai Emes”, lhavidl like politicians and activists arrested at political protests smilingly pose for the cameras with their handcuffs after being arrested for civil disobedience. Then Klal Yisroel will lovingly initiate a massive Pidyon Shvuyim campaign to defend our heroes.

    #759858
    agittayid
    Participant

    “There is a large public school a block from where the sign was located. Perhaps the sign was targeted at the students, teachers, and visitors who pass by each day.”

    The sign is on a side street and seems to be directed at the traffic on a through avenue. The billboard is a rather small one. The images were sprayed over in black paint. Affixed to the billboard is a small glued on sign, “Warning, Do not post pictures of women of else they will be spray painted.”

    #759859
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Would YOU give your Maaser Money for this “Pidyon Shivum”?

    #759860
    Grandmaster
    Member

    In a heartbeat.

    #759861
    RSRH
    Member

    Not in a million years.

    #759862
    Grandmaster
    Member

    Then I’ll give double what I was planning.

    #759863
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You’d better give triple…..

    And you’d better pay to fix the damage for the vandalism as well

    #759864
    Grandmaster
    Member

    I’ll give quadruple. Plus I’ll raise friends from everyone I know.

    But I wont pay a cent to those who put the pritzus up.

    #759865
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If they ever got arrested, besides any other punishment (jail, Community Service, Probation etc) they would be forced to pay restitution as well

    And that can be garnished from wages, removed from Bank Accounts etc

    #759866

    But I wont pay a cent to those who put the pritzus up.

    And they’re going to need it the most, where it really counts, up in shomayim!

    #759867
    bpt
    Participant

    “wear a big yarmulka and black hat as they are led into the police precinct (and court if necessary) joyfully singing “Moshe Emes V’Torahsai Emes”,

    And if they need to spend a day or two in Rikers? Oh, will they sing!

    Bochurim – Don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time. And forget askonim; even if they take an interest in your case (which will depend on who you are), even 10 minutes in the pen can be a lifechanger.

    Stick to the seforim, and let the consumers fight the billboard battles

    #759868
    Grandmaster
    Member

    The Pidyon Shvuyim would defend them with the secular authorities and other costs.

    As far as the schar they will get for this mitzvah, I can only envy them for it.

    #759869
    oomis
    Participant

    This was a big Chillul Hashem IMO, and these boys could be prosecuted potentially for malicious mischief and defacing property. Moreover, they are on camera! No deniability. We do not live in a country where one gets to pick and choose which civil laws to follow without repercussions. They had to be looking up PRETTY high to see this ad, and it was not like the women pictured were wearing undergarments (and even if they HAD been, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about expressing your feelings). Don’t shop in H and M and let them know why, and they will soon get the message.

    there was a far worse situation going on along Rockaway Boulevard parallel to JFK. A “Gentlemen’s Club” (whose clientelle were anything BUT gentlemen) had three separate HUGE posters of a woman barely wearing anything, posted so that it was unavoidable to see them. A civic minded group comprised of frum Jews and the locals who were not Jewish but were outraged,successfully got this place closed down on legal grounds, and the pictures were then blacked out. It took a while, but the aqueaky wheel does eventually get greased.

    There is no question even in the non-Jewish mind, that pictures of barely dressed women should not be visible in a public place where children pass by. But NOT all people agree that pictures of women wearing slacks or short-sleeved shirts are untzniusdig. And in that case, keep your eyes away from the pictures of things that you can potentially see on any street in NY at any time.

    You have the right NOT to expect to see bikini-clad women in giant size posters, especially as it is a traffic hazard. But the pants are another issue entirely. I personally do not wear that type of attire nor do my daughters, but it is reasonable (and considered to be modest)attire for the non-Jewish velt, and HELLO – we live in a non-Jewish velt, whether we like it or not, and have their standards with which to contend. The people involved in this event erred IMO, in their kana-us (I give them the kaf zechus, here, because they might just have been out and out vandals). In any case, they were wrong, especially as the best way to effect a change is to hit someone in the wallet.

    #759870
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I can see the Schar they will get

    Did you Obey the law of the Land (dinah dmalchusa Dinah) NO

    Did you damage someone elses property and not pay for the damage? NO

    Did you let yourself get photographed comming vanadalism (Chilul Hashem) YES

    Yes, they will get Schar, Lots of It

    #759871

    i dont know about how much schar they will or wont get but i do know they make a big chillul hashem!

    #759872
    Grandmaster
    Member

    They followed Torah law (which takes precedence over dina dmalchusa), which prohibits such imagery, and by thus alone made a massive Kiddush Shem Shamayim.

    If I even got one one hundredth of the schar they earned for this mitzvah, I would be eternally grateful for it.

    #759873
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Grandmaster,

    So if you have a Toyota, and i don’t like Japanese cars, I can spray paint it. If I don’t like your radical view of Yiddishkeit, I can spray paint your house. Try explaining to a judge about gezel akum.

    #759875
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Anywhere in the article about these bachurim, is there a quote from their rebbe or rav giving them a yasher koach? An acknowledgement that they asked for guidance from a rebbe or rav? Has anyone seen or heard a single rebbe or rav who has stated their actions were appropriate?

    #759876
    Grandmaster
    Member

    Anywhere in the article about these bachurim, is there a quote that their rebbe or rav holds otherwise? Any claim that they didn’t ask for guidance from a rebbe or rav? Has anyone seen or heard even a single authoritative claim that their rebbe or rav has stated their actions were anything but appropriate?

    #759877
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Anywhere in the article about these bachurim, is there a quote that their rebbe or rav holds otherwise?

    You’re right. There is no quote. So you can’t make the assumption that their rav is okay with it, just as your disputants cannot make the claim that their rav disapproved.

    Any claim that they didn’t ask for guidance from a rebbe or rav?

    You’re right… but since there is no evidence that they did ask, the burden of proof is on you to show that they did ask.

    Has anyone seen or heard even a single authoritative claim that their rebbe or rav has stated their actions were anything but appropriate?

    You’re right. But as I mentioned earlier, there is no proof that they said it was appropriate. Just as the burden of proof is on your disputants to prove that a rav disapproved, the burden of proof is also on you to prove that they did.

    The Wolf

    #759878
    Grandmaster
    Member

    So you can’t make the assumption that their rav is okay with it, just as your disputants cannot make the claim that their rav disapproved.

    And my point was? Exactly that. I was being rhetorical.

    That being said, as Jews (even putting aside all the logical reasons demonstrating these tzadikim were correct in their actions) we have an obligation of being dan lkaf zchus. So if we don’t know otherwise, we ought to presume they did so with the haskama of their rav.

    #759879

    OOmis, i know exactly what you mean. Unfortunately, I pass that sign twice a day every day and was overjoyed when they finally got it down. Only problem with their “squeaky wheel” method is that it took YEARS for someone to listen.

    I don’t care much about what these kids did, but I do want to point out one thing (as I do know a little bit about marketing and billboards). All of you who are saying that they should have covered it and spoken to H&M who surely would have taken it down, blah blah blah. These signs are not reusable. It’s not like H&M would have taken it down and hung it in Times Square instead. If it was coming down anyway (as most of you think the tzadikim at H&M would’ve done) then there was no hefsid.

    That being said, I believe the blame falls squarely and solely on the owner of the billboard space. If you own space in this kind of neighborhood, you should review ads before you agree to let someone hang them so you can avoid such issues.

    #759880
    charliehall
    Participant

    “They followed Torah law (which takes precedence over dina dmalchusa)”

    There is no commandment in the Torah to deface anothers’ property. In fact, it is asur.

    #759882
    Grandmaster
    Member

    There is no commandment in the Torah to deface anothers’ property. In fact, it is asur.

    It is like when Avrohom Avinu smashed Terach’s avoda zora. Should Avrohom have paid Terach for the damage? Was Avrohom in the wrong? He was put in the oven to burn for his crime.

    #759883
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I don’t know about this case in particular, but I do know of another instance where they contacted the owner and were laughed at. They went to politicians who shrugged, saying they can’t do anything. Only then did they take matters into their own hands.

    If someone would put up a sign that hypnotizes all passers-by and convinces them to smoke, would you say, just look the other way or don’t buy from them? That is exactly what this is: it is a sign that does damage, not a message that you don’t agree with.

    If in fact the sole issue was that it had an image of a woman, and it was not overblown, in your face, or provocative, then I would have to agree and condemn it.

    #759884
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Please name the halacha these boys were following in pursuit of their destructive damage.

    #759885
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “It is like when Avrohom Avinu smashed Terach’s avoda zora. Should Avrohom have paid Terach for the damage?

    Do you know that he didn’t?

    #759886
    apushatayid
    Participant

    We can easily settle what their rebbe or rav thinks. If anyone recognizes any of the bachurim in the photo(s) (I didn’t read the story or see any pictures), and knows the name of his rebbe or rav, please let me know the name of the rav and I will call him and ask if he thinks their actions appropriate. No speculation necessary.

    #759887
    apushatayid
    Participant

    We can easily settle what their rebbe or rav thinks. If anyone recognizes any of the bachurim in the photo(s) (I didn’t read the story or see any pictures), and knows the name of his rebbe or rav, please let me know the name of the rav and I will call him and ask if he thinks their actions appropriate. No speculation necessary.

    #759889
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Do you know that he didn’t? “

    Or that he didn’t try to convince his father to try another line of business?

    Besides, we don’t derive halachah from aggadata.

    #759890
    charliehall
    Participant

    A better example: Directly outside of a Judaica store in Manhattan at a bus shelter was a very large ad put up by missionaries targeting Jews. Should it have been defaced?

    #759892
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Charlie,

    there are many such mitzvos, to destroy property even when it is not yours. Psilei elohayhem tisrifun baeish. Matzeyvosayhem tishaberun. And so on, many, many such.

    And there is also a concept of matzilin oison.

    So you are totally wrong.

    #759893
    Grandmaster
    Member

    There are many. One that comes to mind is Lifnei eever lo siten michshol.

    #759894
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Truth is, looking at the sign, I do not think there is even damage to H&M, rather, these bochurim probably did them a big favor.

    The ad is still there. It still says H&M. You can still tell that they sell clothing. the difference is that the offensive part is covered.

    people who may have turned away before from observing the ad now can look at it. (This is especially poignant for all the brilliant commenters who say, why do people have to look. The sign is there, should tpeople have to stumble on the streets of thier neighborhoods because someone would like to put untzinuyus things all over?)

    So lets observe what the result is:

    1) The ad is still there and still says H&M.

    2) Had a tarp been spread, even H&M would be unvisible

    3) More people can now actually look at the ad, because the non-tzniyus portions are covered, thus increasing viewership.

    These bochurimactually did H&M a big favor. And if H&M had yashrus, they should actually pay them for expanding the potential market the ad can reach.

    #759895
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know what the picture was, but oomis inadvertantly brought up a good point; that sign along Rockaway Boulevard took several months until it came down, despite the owners being contacted and lots of political pressure.

    Bottome line? If you want something done, do it yourself.

    #759898
    agittayid
    Participant

    “..Affixed to the billboard is a small glued on sign, “Warning, Do not post pictures of women of else they will be spray painted.””

    1.This is a threat to the entire community and should be regarded as such.

    2. They mention pictures of women rather than pictures of inappropriately dressed women.

    #759899
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    So is it OK for people to deface the “Tzniut” Sign in Kiryat Joel that many locals did not Like

    It has been VERY unpopular with people in the surrounding communities

    #759900
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Lifnei eever lo siten michshol.”

    Vista Media and/or HM would be oiver lifnei iver. Not you or I, even if we didnt do a thing to try and take it down. dont believe me, ask your own Rav.

    #759901
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I do not think there is even damage to H&M, rather, these bochurim probably did them a big favor.”

    Not if the target audience is the Public School foot traffic in the area.

    Not sure what, if any, advertising or marketing experience or training you might have, but simply putting a name, and product sold, does not cut it in the world of advertising. Just look at the ads you see flashing on the sides or top of the YWN page. Read the ads in mishpacha, ami or hamodia magazine (or ANY heimishe publication for that matter that carriers advertisements). Imagery goes a long way. The imagery created by this particular ad, may not be appropriate for the heimishe community in BP but is quite appropriate for the public school audience HM and/or Vista Media might be trying to reach. You can google both companies. You can get the contact info for the publicist of each company and let them know how you feel. Spray painting the advertisement will likely make them dig in their heels and put up a new ad thus defeating the purpose of the real message the community wants to convey.

    If HM really believed the billboard served a purpose in the area, they would simply place it in a higher location. Will it become a game of cat and mouse? Haha, I can climb higher than any billboard you will place? If HM decides it isnt worth their while, then what, start the whole thing again with Gap? Banana Republic? Another product that has imagery that is offensive? At best, the bachurim have a short term solution to a long term problem. And no, the means do not justify the ends, ever.

    No, this is not avoda zara in E”Y where the torah commands bnei yisroel to remove them. This is secular united states, yes, even 16th Ave and 43rd is part of secular america. What do the Rabbonim in the immediate area have to say? The RY of Shaarei Yosher? Rav Wolfson?

    #759902
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “These bochurim actually did H&M a big favor. And if H&M had yashrus, they should actually pay them for expanding the potential market the ad can reach.”

    Purim was last week.

    #759903
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Zahavasdad,

    Where is the tznius sign in KJ? IN KJ. Do you see why it is impossible to compare the two? They did not put the sign in Woodbury to offend people. The bochurim did not go to the Village to spray the sign.

    #759904
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    APY,

    It is not just the name and product sold. There is a lot more than that still visible on the sign.

    If you think the sign was for the public school children, you must be smoking something. The pictures were not of little kids and children’s clothing. Or even young teens.

    #759905
    agittayid
    Participant

    “..Affixed to the billboard is a small glued on sign, “Warning, Do not post pictures of women of else they will be spray painted.””

    I wonder if the posting of this sign is a violation of the hate crime law. Women are a protected group.

    #759906
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    “..Affixed to the billboard is a small glued on sign, “Warning, Do not post pictures of women of else they will be spray painted.””

    I wonder if the posting of this sign is a violation of the hate crime law. Women are a protected group.

    Well, if it says “of women of else”, then it can be read to not post pictures of anyone.

Viewing 50 posts - 51 through 100 (of 243 total)
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