November 15, 2010 7:13 am at 7:13 am #593041
i feel that bochurim in isreal spend their parents money like its hotcakes. do you?November 15, 2010 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #715354optimusprimeMember
Its only a waste for those that use it for illicit purposes, like Seforim that they’ll never use. I will not even go into illegal activities which, unfortunately, are all too common as well for the Israel YearNovember 15, 2010 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #715355amichaiParticipant
let’s say they do, is it your problem? the parents can say no also. obviously it doesn’t bother them or effect their pocketbook.November 15, 2010 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #715356shlomozalmanMember
Israel, thank you.November 15, 2010 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #715357its_meMember
optimusprime , rabbi miller advised everyone to purchase sforim even if they say they wont use them.November 15, 2010 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #715358
optimusprime if you want to say illicit purposes I cant argue but to call seforim illicit is just dumb.November 15, 2010 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #715359
i feel that bochurim in isreal spend their parents money like its hotcakes. do you?
Do you have any factual evidence to back up this “feeling?”
(And how does one spend hotcakes anyway?)
The Wolf (who never, ever spent a hotcake in his life).November 15, 2010 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #715360PosterMember
How about girls in seminary? same story. If you trust your children enough to send them so far from home, then you need to trust the way they spend the money YOU gave them.November 15, 2010 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #715361dunnoMember
Your posts are hilarious! Keep em coming!November 15, 2010 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #715362
I’m gearing up for a $5000-6000 year per child, but I’m thinking of it as my graduation present to them, for the 12-13 years of really hard work they each put in getting to this point.
Besides, after the year is up, they are facing a whole lifetime of hard work, so don’t they deserve a year to gear up? Ok, maybe not snorkling or para-sailing, and weekends in Eilat. But 12 months of dira life is a fair price to pay.
Girls too. They are facing 30-40 years of really hard work. They deserve the time away.November 15, 2010 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #715363
I worked during bein hazmanim to help support myself but didnt think twice about spending for whatever I wanted (I never did parasailing or eilat).
A couple of years after I got married it hit me how much I actually cost my parents for 3 years I wasin Israel and I called my parents to thatnk and apologze to them.November 15, 2010 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #715364FrummyMcFrumParticipant
Why is anyone dignifying this clown? New Username, same dumb comments.
Please Mods, spare us the indignity, close down the topic and dont allow others like this to start againNovember 15, 2010 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #715365yeshivaguy1Participant
Besides for the flight and tuition I spend my own money which I earn over the summer.November 15, 2010 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #715366FrummyMcFrumParticipant
Oh, and he spells his first name sean, not shawn. Well doneNovember 15, 2010 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #715367
“New Username, same dumb comments.”
I actually welcome it. A few days ago, there was a post from someone else that got me to see the whole EY / extended yeshiva years from a different perspective, so I for one, am glad that I get asked the same questions again, so I get to rethink my opinion.November 15, 2010 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #715368
actually “wolf”, it might surprise you to find out a few truths about me. you see, im not ur average clueless parent making assumptions. ill give you three options for who i am: 1) A YESHIVA BOCHUR IN ISRAEL!!! 2) a mossad agent 3) your conscience. study these deeply and do research. you might come to realize why i KNOW that yeshiva bochurim (and sem girls) spend a ton of cash in isrAEl!!!November 15, 2010 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #715369
1) A YESHIVA BOCHUR IN ISRAEL!!!
Congrats. So you’re personally aware of a small subset of yeshiva students in Israel whom you know personally.
Anecdotal evidence should not be used as conclusive proof for a large group.
The WolfNovember 15, 2010 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #715370popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think it is fine. Parents can police their own money. If parents are willing to give it, the guys are willing to spend it.
Sean/Michael/whoever: I’m sorry your parents don’t give you as much money. Mine didn’t either.November 16, 2010 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #715372
I agree with Wolf.
True, there are a number of boys and girls who party in EY. And there are a number of them who take extended weekend trips to Cypress or Milan.
But there are THOUSANDS more who are working real hard during those 12 months. True, thousands don’t make the juicy headlines that the jet set nabs, but they are still there. One peek into the Bais (take your pick of which one to look at) will confirm that.November 16, 2010 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #715373
If parents were more tight fisted with their boys in Israel, we wouldn’t have “yeshiva” guys hanging out in Eilat with zonas.November 16, 2010 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #715374gavra_at_workParticipant
I think he is a Mossad Agent.
Perhaps Shin Bet.November 16, 2010 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #715375not IMember
Daven for god kids and you wont have this problem. In the good yeshivos/sems this is far less prevalent. there is not that much spare time to spend the money..
Besides the Israeli economy would be in shambles if not for the Americans doing their year there! It’s not like supporting the Arabs or anything like thatNovember 16, 2010 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #715376
actually “wolf”, im your conscience. if your saying that EVEN a yeshiva bochur IN ISREAL wouldnt know what goes on then maybe you should learn a few things!!November 16, 2010 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #715377whatrutalkingabtMember
My seminary took us to Eilat (and we went snorkeling- its the most gorgeous thing ever to swim in the yam suf right beside the corals) so that we wouldnt go ourselves…
Boys dont have this option…but a good seminary will satisfy the girls enough so that they wont feel like they have to spend a fortune touring the country.November 16, 2010 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #715378
actually “wolf”, im your conscience.
if your saying that EVEN a yeshiva bochur IN ISREAL wouldnt know what goes on
No that’s not what I’m saying.
What I’m saying is that you are *personally* aware of the spending habits of a small subset of people. If you want to be aware of the spending habits of yeshiva bochrim in Israel in general, you need to gather a lot more data. Have you done so? Or are you extrapolating from a small non-random-sampled group to a population as a whole?
then maybe you should learn a few things!!
As should you as well. You should learn about data sampling techniques and statistics.
I also noticed that while you posted a question, you failed to provide any solution for what you perceive to be the problem. Since you seem to believe that there is a huge problem*, please at least give a suggestion for a solution.
* Just to be clear — I’m not saying that you are wrong. You may well be right that bochrim “spend money like hotcakes.” I’m just asking you to back up how you came to that conclusion.November 16, 2010 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #715379
You’re either nuts, or only know 5-15 really bad dudes.
C’mon WIY – You may be able to point out a few trouble makers, but surely you know 20-30x the number of real righteous guys.
And if you don’t, you need to get new friendsNovember 16, 2010 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #715380
“My seminary took us to Eilat”
Oh, are you temimusdik!
Best you don’t know the Eilat I’m referring to.
Suffice to say, bochurim don’t belong in EilatNovember 16, 2010 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #715381
When I was learning in E”Y there were always some Mir guys in “town” but it was mostly the same 15-20. there was more than 100 times that amount that were doing right but those guys, gave all a bad name to some people.
I think the same thing here.November 16, 2010 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #715382
Firstly, I may be nuts but that has no bearing on the topic at hand.
I was in Israel learning a few years back. I know what goes on there, and as bad as I thought it was, a friend of mine who is involved with Kiruv and knows everybody told me that the situation is insane.
There are a lot of boys that do really low things in Israel. Even if its not the actual “maaseh” they go to dance clubs bars and other types of “clubs.” On any night of the week you can find Yeshivah Bachurim in Ben Yehuda up to who knows what. There are Yeshiva guys in almost every bar, internet cafe (watching movies, porn whatever…Its really out of control.
BP Totty there was a story not so long ago that a Dira in a certain Yeshivah had girl Dira mates. No Im not kidding there were guys and girls renting the same apartment. I dont need to paint the picture of what went on in that place. Supposedly one of teh guys married her so theres a bittersweet ending. But just know, the garbage that goes on is out of control. Most boys arent mature enough to handle the freedom and with money comes all kinds of problems.
There were Diras that were known gambling parlors. The guys stayed up all night playing poker. There was a Dira across the street from mine that had a huge 42″ TV in the dira, full internet access you name it…Im sure these things still go on as its been a few years since I was there and things tend to get worse not better.
If you send your son to Israel, send him to a Yeshivah that will keep an eye on him and if necessary pay for an older Chavrusa like a Kolel Yungerman to keep an eye on him.
100’s if not 1000’s of boys and girls were ruined in Israel because their parents gave them too much money and too much freedom.
BP Totty, I wish I was making this up. I WISH WITH ALL MY HEARTNovember 16, 2010 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #715383
I’m not sending my kid to Israel next year… but largely because we can’t afford it.
The WolfNovember 16, 2010 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #715384
I dont doubt the vearicty of your stories but you exxagerate the numbers.
Also most of your stories would happen in US as well. You can watch movies in internet cafes (but paying in 15 minute intervals add up) but you cant watch porn in them.November 16, 2010 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #715385
All you say is true and, boy you hit it right on the head, I am DREADING the 12 months my boys will be overseas. And the idea of a kollel guy to play policeman is nice, but not happening. What am I supposed to do if I get negative reports, reel them back? I either trust them or I dont (after all, they are mini-adults).
That said, the odds of them going off the deep end are small, when you compare them to the number of really really good boys that are there and really learning.
And yes, I sure do know what goes on, as I have several Shomrim and Hatzoloh friends who tell me stories that would make a screen play for CSI.
But its a miut, sh’bimiut. Overall, the boys are good and while no one likes poking fun at the system as much as I do, I cannot deny that it does (for 99% of the population) work.
Look at yourself as an example; you went, you knew, but you came out alive. Why? I’ll attribute it to any or all of the following:
a system that works
(ok, maybe that last one is a stretch)
Bottom line; trouble can be found anywhere, and you can be righteous anywhere. I’m living proof of this. (Unlike many parents and mechanchim will tell you, I was a “kid at risk” before the term was minted. So I know. Oh boy, do I know)November 16, 2010 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #715386
Im Maskim that its a Miut but the # of casualties are not acceptable. I think part of the issue is the age one sends their child to Israel or specifically the boys because the girls usually all go post 12th grade. Some people send their boys at 17-18 when they are post high school and very vulnerable to negative influences and will get drunk on the freedom and go crazy. If a boy goes at that age he needs to be under supervision be it a the yeshivah keeping close tabs or someone else…
Yes BP Totty, if you hear confirmed reports that your kid is up to no good, as a father you have a responsibility to yank him home so fast it will give him friction burns. You should not leave him there in the status quo. If you think you have a good plan of fixing the problem there (by getting his Rebbe involved…whatever) fine. But most guys once involved in “stuff” are just headed down hill.
Israel for many boys is like Vegas. What happened in Israel stays in Israel. Yet in reality people do know and word gets around…
As for me, I was no Tzaddik but Baruch Hashem I became close to my Rebbie and he helped me immensely.
Just due your due diligence before sending your son and make sure he doesnt get into a bad Dira. If you room with bad guys you are toast.November 16, 2010 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #715387americaisoverParticipant
if a bouchur doesnt go to Israel for shana gimmelNovember 16, 2010 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #715388gavra_at_workParticipant
I think part of the issue is the age one sends their child to Israel or specifically the boys because the girls usually all go post 12th grade.
Know your child!
You have a good point.November 16, 2010 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #715389
WIY you a sensationalist and exaggerating facts.
I know a guy whose parents heard a terrible report and were about to pull him home until their Rov insisted they check with the yshiva. The R”Y said while you may have heard truth he’s on the precipice of change.
They left him and today he is a Rebbi.November 16, 2010 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #715390
No Im not. I know what went on there and I know what goes on there. Im a young guy who was there recently and I have a sibling who was there recently and I know too many horror stories.
The problem with Israel is that its like Europe. Anyone can go into a bar or club and get a drink, theres no id business. You need a birth certificate to buy cigarettes. If youre a teenager they will definitely sell you alcohol.
“I know a guy whose parents heard a terrible report and were about to pull him home until their Rov insisted they check with the yshiva. The R”Y said while you may have heard truth he’s on the precipice of change.
They left him and today he is a Rebbi.”
Wow should I clap? For every Rebbi that came out of such circumstances theres who knows how many kids that could have been saved but instead were allowed to fall all the way down!
You can hire a Zonah for a few shekel in Israel, believe me I was told by people who “been there done that.”
You think a drunk or not 100% sober 19-21 year old boy who has never been with a girl will say no when she comes on to him and tells him for only x amount of shekel…?
You dont know how many boys cant wait to get to Israel and be away from their parents control and supervision. Then they go wild. You are being extremely naive and foolish if you think what Im saying isnt the way it is. You should maybe have a talk with some “cool” yeshiva guys who just got back from Israel. Your ears will burn up from what they tell you.November 16, 2010 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #715391
“wolf”, im sorry to hear about your financial situation. i wish you much hatzlacha in your worldly dealings. i really want to apologize for the tension between us. i feel at fault for it. but seriously “wolf”, it doesnt take much more than half a brain to realize that i , a bochur in israel, would know about this issue as a whole.November 16, 2010 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #715392
Im 29 spent 3 years in Israel and know exactly what happens.
My example was bad because the implication is that rebbi was only acceptable outcome.
you are sensationalizing and failing to realize that 90% of what happens by 90% of the people would happen in their home country as well.November 16, 2010 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #715393
I will say this, WIY. You do know your facts from the ground level. And the senario you paint, is very, very true. When it comes to using sechel in um, shall we call them, “crucial moments”, men (and drunk bochurim) often leave their sechel at the door.
Is it a miyut? For sure. Is it a concern for parents? FOR SURE!
Like most hot-button issues, no one likes to face them head on, but folks like yourself do a service if only one bochur (or Sem girl)is saved.November 16, 2010 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #715394
i really want to apologize for the tension between us. i feel at fault for it.
but seriously “wolf”, it doesnt take much more than half a brain to realize that i , a bochur in israel, would know about this issue as a whole.
No, it means that you’re *more familiar* with it than I am. But that hardly makes you an expert — no more than my being a frum Jew makes me an expert in all of Orthodox Jewish culture.
Take my advice, learn a little bit about data sampling and statistics before you start making generalizations from a small subset.
The WolfNovember 17, 2010 12:13 am at 12:13 am #715395yeshivaguy1Participant
My yeshiva took us to eilat. We rented a boat and had all the water activities (scuba diving parasailing etc.) brought out to us (and pizza for lunch).
Regarding bochurim going wild in my yeshiva we have guys who for the most part have been with girls (take it as you will), have experimented with drugs alcohol. When they come to Israel it’s their chance to make a fresh start away from everybody. In the beginning they go a bit wild, they go to town a lot get drunk but then by chanuka they realize that its all a waste of time. If they don’t, they usually don’t make it back after pesach.
The real problem is with the good bochurim who get messed over. I personally know a shtark bochur from a choshuve yeshiva in america who told me that he hadn’t learned in months. The entire time he had been hanging around in dance clubs, bars with girls watching movies all night getting drunk doing drugs. He left Israel to BMG because it was time to get married. Another bochur I know personally came from a shtark yeshiva and left no longer frum. I know many similar cases. I realize that this isn’t the majority; most bochurim shtaig in Israel, but some can be really harmed. As previous posters have mentioned everything is much more accessible than in america (and it isn’t the zonas who are the problem it is the huge amount of girls from weak backgrounds in yerushalayim for seminary)
I feel that Israel can do wonders for growth but if a yeshivish guy is starting to “look around the world” Israel is not the place to send him.November 17, 2010 1:26 am at 1:26 am #715396
I am not trying to paint a bleak picture Chas Veshalom. Most boys and girls learn a lot and shtieg and grow and become mentchen in Israel. But we need to be aware of the very real opportunities for kids to seriously foul up their lives there. (I didnt even mention drugs but I can throw that in as well.)
Just be aware, forewarned is forearmed. If you know your child (and Im speaking generally not just to BPT)
is prone to falling in to negative peer pressure be very wary of sending him to Israel.November 17, 2010 8:16 am at 8:16 am #715398haifagirlParticipant
There are yeshivos that aren’t in Yerushalayim. In other places there may not be as many temptations.November 17, 2010 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #715400
bpt, if you dont send your child based on WIY embellished tales he did an avlah.November 17, 2010 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #715401
Yeshivaguy1 also giving embellished tales?
I’m not dissuading anyone from sending their child to Israel, unless they know that their kid is weak and can easily fall in to bad company. If your kid is going with a shatrk chevra of good friends then there should be no problem.
Just don’t be a naive parent and think your child is going to The Holy Land and nothing bad can happen there. There’s plenty of unholy to be found by those who want it and its much more accessible than in the US.November 17, 2010 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #715402
Arc (and WIY)
No, I’m not changing the EY track for my kids based on the above. But I am worried. True, its a remote chance, but its still a chance none-the-less.
So off they go, and I “mach nass a tehilim’l” as the Satmer Rebbe saidNovember 17, 2010 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #715403
Main thing is they go with a good chevra and dorm/dira with good chevra. Also, make sure your son doesnt try to be “oiber chuchem” and enroll in a shiur thats beyond his present level of learning because it easily leads to burnout. Another point is he needs good chavrusos, if his chavrusas arents good he has to be ready to switch and not try to stick it out and risk wasting a zman with bad chavrusos. My first zman I had 4 chvrusah switches in the first week! A chavrusah is like a shidduch and if it doesnt match its not going to go. As a former Mir Bachur I can tell you these are the main issues.November 17, 2010 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #715404
“go with a good chevra and dorm/dira with good chevra”
This, I know. And he is going with his grade, and I know most of them. So on that front, all should be well.
(That, and the PI I’ll have shadowing him from dawn till dark)November 17, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #715405
is he going to the mir? WIY gave good advice
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