Boro Park Eruv

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  • #761248

    goody613
    Member

    rav Yisroel Belsky shlita will not walk into boro park on shabbos because he does not want to see chilul shabbos

    #761249

    HIE
    Participant

    yes, and goody has it correct, no one argued with the psak for 15 years, and suddenly then people went and argued. it was accepted by everyone for a while. i’m not saying its “assur” according to all, but i am saying that it was a massive chutzpah that after 15 years people argue with rav moshe’s psak.

    #761250

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    it was accepted by everyone for a while

    I’m still waiting for you to back this up with some evidence other than “my dad says so.”

    The Wolf

    #761252

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i spoke to many respected people about this,

    Good. So you can tell me precisely who said that this p’sak was universally accepted for 15 years before being “ignored.” You have yet to provide *any* source of information.

    I have treated you with respect until now. I see that you are not only incapable of providing proof, you are also incapable of arguing with someone without resorting to ad hominem attacks and name calling.

    The Wolf

    believe I’ve been patient enough.)

    #761255

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    wolf, your behavior is unacceptable here.

    Is it? I wasn’t aware that asking for evidence is unacceptable.

    In your world, apparently, it’s unacceptable to ask for evidence, but it’s okay to call people twice your age “little shnuck.”

    Now, how about providing the evidence that I’ve (repeatedly) asked for, instead of turning this into a name-calling match.

    The Wolf

    #761257

    chaplaintzvi
    Member

    I remember years ago when Chicago was getting its Eiruvin, we have 3 major ones now if i remember correctly. My father, zt”l a rov and his chavrusa took the pamphlet that they came out with and shlugged up pretty much the whole eiruv. The psak here was shopped around after Rav Aaron Soloveichik said no to it. That was a big issue. As a side point my father zt”l learned under Rabbis Starr, Kreiswirth, Kaplan, and Rogoff. If any one knows any of these Rabbonim. They were all gedolei torah. Eiruvin are not easy issues by any means to make a psak on. We should all be carefull about how and whom we quote

    #761259

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    HIE,

    I’m still waiting for your evidence.

    The Wolf

    #761261

    HIE
    Participant

    wolf, i said many things the mods aren’t posting it what should i do

    #761263

    HIE
    Participant

    mods, can you stop deleting my posts??? wolf wants to hear from me

    #761264

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I refuse to believe that you posted the name of a person in a respectful post and that they blocked it.

    Mods, if I am wrong, please advise and I’ll retract my last statement to HIE. I don’t think I am, but I’ll allow for the possibility.

    In the meantime, I think it’s fairly evident that you have, once again, simply made up sources. I’ve asked you repeatedly to back up your statements and you’ve failed to do so every time, instead turning to name calling. When you have verifiable sources, come back and we’ll talk. In the meantime, go learn how to argue civilly.

    The Wolf

    #761265

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Wolf:

    I think HIE is correct, that the psak was accepted by the vast majority of rabbonim and people.

    I don’t have any empirical evidence to back this up, and of course HIE doesn’t either.

    But we know it is true.

    How do I know? All my rebbeim have said so. I trust them. Would you trust them? I think so, but I’m not naming them.

    It also is evident. The eruv which is currently championed was not constructed for 15 years after his death. There was always a great need for an eruv, but it was commonly recognized among the yeshiva orthodox (made up term), that it simply could and should not be done.

    I don’t expect this to convince anyone, since I am not presenting any evidence. But for me, it’s good enough to criticize anyone who uses or allows the eruv.

    #761266

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It also is evident. The eruv which is currently championed was not constructed for 15 years after his death.

    The eruv was constructed in 1979. R’ Moshe passed away in 1986.

    The Wolf

    #761267

    HIE
    Participant

    popa_bar_aba: well said. thank you

    #761268

    cherrybim
    Participant

    It’s interesting that in the last few years a new eruv phenomena has come about. Many frum Yiden have come to accept the Eruv in Flatbush but are afraid of being ostracized by chaveirim and family. So they have become “pocket carriers”. They will not carry openly so as not to offend anyone and also to keep the peace, but will carry privately and quietly.

    #761269

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Even david99 doesn’t seem to support the 1979 eruv.

    That is why I said “currently championed”.

    #761270

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    That is why I said “currently championed”.

    Thanks for the clarification. But that’s a whole different ball of wax. I’m pretty sure that there was never a point (and certainly never a fifteen year stretch) where EVERYONE agreed with R’ Moshe’s p’sak that an eruv in Brooklyn is impossible.*

    The Wolf

    * If that is, indeed, the p’sak.

    #761271

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So they have become “pocket carriers”. They will not carry openly so as not to offend anyone and also to keep the peace, but will carry privately and quietly.

    Or they become like me, who doesn’t really care one way or the other.

    I don’t use the eruv, but I don’t call people who do so m’chalelei shabbos.

    The Wolf

    #761272

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sure, not everyone. But it seems an overwhelming majority of rabbonim, spanning litvish, chassidish, and much in between.

    The 2000 eruv, which I know little about, seems to be chassidish from what david99 says, and on that I point out that it took them 15 years after his death to do it.

    #761273

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Sure, not everyone. But it seems an overwhelming majority of rabbonim, spanning litvish, chassidish, and much in between.

    Obviously not MO, however. But I forget that in some people’s world, they don’t count. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #761274

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Obviously not MO, however. But I forget that in some people’s world, they don’t count. 🙂

    It depends who, and it depends how broad a consensus they are bucking.

    Besides, I’m not aware that the major rabbonim of Modern orthodoxy in the 70’s were in favor of the eruv. (like the Rav for example). If it was the entire torah jewry against a few MO rabbis, I think I would say they don’t change the situation.

    “MO rabbis” are a broad spectrum. There are real talmidei chachamim, who are really yarei shamoyim, on one end, and there are some pretty dubious characters on the other end.

    #761275

    HIE
    Participant

    wolf, there are always those who will argue but i mean’t the vast majority, and i think we are all in agreement that it was a shtickel chutzpah that 15 years after r moshe’s death, when the vast vast majority of rabonnim accepted that it was no good to make an eruv, they made one. THAT was the chutzpah. wolf, please let me know if you have opposition to what i said here

    #761276

    apushatayid
    Participant

    R’ Moshe never issued a psak for “the velt” and never required “the velt” to follow his psak. If you feel there is an element of chutzpah to the psak permitting an eruv, go after the posek, not those who follow the posek. I have no idea who permits the eruv, but whoever they are they have a right (an obligation actually, according to R’ Moshe) to issue a psak, even if the conclusion differs from R’ Moshe.

    Just curious. Did anyone ever tell Rabbeinu Tam, “who do you think you are, the zaideh Rashi paskened one way and 15 years later you have the chutzpah to argue and psaken differently?

    #761277

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You know, HIE, I met someone over Yom Tov who reminded me a lot of you.

    I met a high schooler who determined that anyone who eats g’brokts on Pesach is not a yarei shamyim, since a *true* yarei shamayim wouldn’t put himself into a position of eating a chasash of chometz on Pesach. When I told him that he was wrong, he told me that I know nothing, that all the gedolim don’t eat g’brokts and he actually called me a “little shnuk” (yes, EXACTLY the term you used — that’s why he reminded me of you) who thinks that I know better than the gedolim.

    When I tried to tell him that eating g’brokts is a legitimate minhag, he proceeded to tell me that since I wasn’t wearing a hat, I was obviously not a true ben Torah and therefore knew nothing.

    So, I guess the two of you can be me’id about me that I’m only a “little shnuk” and that I know nothing. Fine. Truth be told, since I know that I’m a rasha, an apikorus and have no olam habah*, I guess my opinion doesn’t really matter anyway. So, fine, this shnuk concedes to your vast holy knowledge. I’ll likewise concede in the other thread that we are arguing in. I hereby concede that since I’m just a little shnuk in the opinion of you and others, I must know nothing compared to your vast knowledge and I concede to you that are are a million frum Jews in New York. Want to say there are two million? I’m maskim. Want to say five million? A billion? This “little shnuk” bows before your superior intellect.

    The Wolf

    * No, I’m not implying that you said this. This is something I know about myself

    #761278

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You know, HIE, I met someone over Yom Tov who reminded me a lot of you.

    I met a high schooler who determined that anyone who eats g’brokts on Pesach is not a yarei shamyim, since a *true* yarei shamayim wouldn’t put himself into a position of eating a chasash of chometz on Pesach. When I told him that he was wrong, he told me that I know nothing, that all the gedolim don’t eat g’brokts and he actually called me a “little shnuk” (yes, EXACTLY the term you used — that’s why he reminded me of you) who thinks that I know better than the gedolim.

    When I tried to tell him that eating g’brokts is a legitimate minhag, he proceeded to tell me that since I wasn’t wearing a hat, I was obviously not a true ben Torah and therefore knew nothing.

    So, I guess the two of you can be me’id about me that I’m only a “little shnuk” and that I know nothing. Fine. Truth be told, since I know that I’m a rasha, an apikorus and have no olam habah*, I guess my opinion doesn’t really matter anyway. So, fine, this shnuk concedes to your vast holy knowledge. I’ll likewise concede in the other thread that we are arguing in. I hereby concede that since I’m just a little shnuk in the opinion of you and others, I must know nothing compared to your vast knowledge and I concede to you that are are a million frum Jews in New York. Want to say there are two million? I’m maskim. Want to say five million? A billion? This “little shnuk” bows before your superior intellect.

    The Wolf

    * No, I’m not implying that you said this. This is something I know about myself. And no, this post is not sarcasm.

    #761279

    HIE
    Participant

    maybe that guy was me. how funny. Wolf, don’t get so offended. Take a chill. I didn’t mean it so personally. I sincerely apoligize, and will try in the future to treat people with a little respect. Sorry again

    HIE

    #761280

    david1999
    Member

    I would like to hear his arguments. There is a lot more to this story than meets the eye.

    #761281

    HIE
    Participant

    david1999: that is 100% true. Rav Belsky shlita doesn’t go to BP on shabbos for this reason.

    #761282

    david1999
    Member

    HIE

    #761283

    david1999
    Member

    chaplaintzvi –

    #761284

    david1999
    Member

    popa_bar_abba –

    I never said any such thing. What I did say was that the current eruvin are much better.

    #761285

    david1999
    Member

    popa_bar_abba –

    #761286

    david1999
    Member

    HIE-

    “david1999: that is 100% true. Rav Belsky shlita doesn’t go to BP on shabbos for this reason.”

    #761287

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    david99:

    I have a question for you.

    You think that the opposition to the brooklyn eruv is really just a conspiracy, aided and abetted by most of the rabbonim in new york.

    You state “the chicago eruv is a fine eruv”, against the psak barur of the major dayanim and roshei yeshiva of chicago. (I assume you are also referring to the peterson park eruv, which is the controversial one.) You probably think that is a conspiracy as well.

    If the vast majority of rabbonim are engaged in these vast conspiracies, why do you trust any of them?

    Do you?

    Do you just follow your own way in the world? Or maybe just rabbonim who hold of eruvin that you like?

    #761288

    HIE
    Participant

    david1999: i think your a bit confused.

    #761290

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Rav Belsky lives in Flatbush. There is an Eruv in Flatbush. Does he remain indoors from hadlakos neiros until after havdala every shabbos?

    #761291

    david1999
    Member

    popa_bar_abba –

    #761292

    david1999
    Member

    HIE –

    #761293

    david1999
    Member

    apushatayid –

    Great question.

    #761294

    achosid
    Participant

    “There was never a meeting of rabbabnim in Flatbush”

    You are a liar.

    I was personally at the meeting in the office of Hagon Rav Shmuel Berenbaum.

    Attending the meeting was Rav Feivel Cohen, Rav Hillel David, and Rav Aron Schecter.

    Not one askan was in that room.

    The meeting was called by Rav Shmuel himself, after hearing that an Eruv was being made under the hechsher of a Rov from Monsey.

    Get out of here, you creep.

    You have lost all Chezkas Kashrus.

    And yes. Rav Wosner is a velts mechutzaf for taking a check from Ronnie Greenwald and Co, and being paid to come from Monsey into Flatbush and giving a heter on an eruv where he does not live. Just imagine. A young rov slaps the gadol hador (Rav Shmuel Berenbaum) in the face by doing this.

    This is a public Maacha, which is required al pi halacha.

    And for the record, go ask Rav Dovid Feinstein about what his father wrote, or held. Stop writing a pack of lies to suit what you want.

    And by the way, Hagon Rav Wosner (senior) was outraged when Rav Shmuel Berenbaum personally (not over the phone) informed him of the disrespectful actions of his “paid-off” son.

    #761295

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Be thankful that’s all he said to you. He called me a “little shnuk.” But hey, what do I know, I’m only a little shnuk and should not be arguing with the incredible holiness and intellect that is HIE.

    The Wolf

    #761296

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok, so when do you listen to the rabbonim? Only when you are satisfied that all the facts are correct?

    Do you think they all are dundering fools and always get the facts wrong?

    It is one thing to say it about one rav and one shaala, but you are saying it about most of the rabbonim in New York, and then you extend it to other cities also.

    And doesn’t that basically give you carte blanche to ignore them whenever you want?

    I am referring to the West Rogers Park Eruv.

    I don’t usually try to ridicule people on this forum, but you have never spoken respectfully to any poster who has disagreed with you.

    You clearly know nothing about the chicago eruvin. You made a sweeping statement without even knowing which neighborhoods were the issue.

    #761297

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I leave for a week (not at work), and we get namecalling and outright Lashon Hara (don’t claim Toeles) regarding Rabbonim.

    What happened?

    #761300

    HIE
    Participant

    apushatayid: Rav Belsky lives in Kensington, and although the flatbush eruv may cover kensington also, no one carryies in kensington. In fact, there is a chassidisha guy with a family that lives in kensington. This guy used to live in BP and also held that it was chllul shabbos to carry, and couldn’t stand seeing so many people carrying so he sold his house and moved to kensington.

    #761301

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I used to be mainly a “pocket carrier” (all I needed was really a key or random item), but since having kids its pretty obvious with a stroller or baby carrier.

    Popa, what you said about “MO Rabbonim” can be said about every sect of Judaism.

    I asked a shaila when I moved to Brooklyn and I follow it. In general, its a lot easier for men not to carry in Brooklyn than women.

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