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What are the accepted ways to combine these terms?
(I’d also like to hear suggestions for a female equivalent of “guy,” and explanations as to why there isn’t already one.)
I’d also like to hear suggestions for a female equivalent of “guy,”
Gal.
a quirk of the system made it turn out the way it did.
What quirk?
a BOY met a MAN and a GUY at a shidduch meeting, the boy was SINGLE, the man was MARRIED and the guy DIVORCED.
I’ll skip question #1 because I don’t think one should combine the terms. They tell relative age and marital status, in fact the word ‘widowed’ is missing from marital status.
As for the female term for ‘guy’ it is ‘gal’
In the midwest we used the term gal. I have found in other places they don’t. So we say “guys” or “bananot”. Another thing I’ve heard a lot is “peoples”, me and my friend use that a lot too. But this is off topic from the OP
Shopping & CT, I don’t think I ever heard anyone say gal or bananot. I think I’d be insulted if they did. When referring to a group of girls, you could say “guys” depending on the context, but it doesn’t work for one girl. In some contexts, it won’t work for a group of girls either. Actually, it only works for a group of girls in the second person, as in, “Hey guys, look at this!” but not in third person, as in, “I saw some guys I know.”
When is the word “dude” acceptable?
I think there’s no equivalent word for “guy” for girls because it’s considered demeaning to call a lady anything but a lady. The equivalent terms that have been used for girls in the past were all kind of demeaning -gal, babe, etc.
Meno – only when you’re joking.
Dude is acceptable for friend to friend. That’s about it.
lilmod- bananot is common in Israel. You would say “I saw a bunch of girls I know”
“bananot”
Is that a typo? If not that’s pretty funny
“Boy” – up till like 14.
“man” – is in workforce
“guy” – around 14 and up until in workforce
“single” – until you have a wife or husband
“married” – you have a wife or husband
Is Kollel part of the workforce?
Sparkly – so a 50 year old Talmid Chacham who is learning and supporting the world is a guy and his 14 year old neighbor who dropped out of school and is working in a pizza place is a man?
Meno – she wrote it 2x, so it can’t be a typo. I agree – it is funny.
lilmod, how is ‘gals’ demeaning? ‘Babes’ is demeaning, certainly, but not gal afaik. It is simply the linguistic equivalent of guys.
Lady is the equivalent of when you’d call a male a gentleman.
lilmod ulelamaid – i should have said a professional degree. and when a guy learning in kollel becomes mature enough to be considered a man thats when their considered a man with some exceptions.
Sparkly, a man is any male 13 years old and older. A boy is any male under 13. This point is not debatable. It’s min HaTorah.
Who says “gals”?
Meno – i do sometimes.
Joseph – I don’t know if gals is objectively demeaning; I just don’t like it. I don’t know what most girls think about it. It also just sounds strange to me.
Sparkly – This is the first time you’re mentioning degrees. In your first post, you wrote about working. What are you trying to say now – that if someone is going for a degree, he’s not a man until he starts working? Or do you mean that as soon as he starts his degree, he’s a man?
Either way, I would have a problem with that definition. If you say that he has to be finished his degree before he can be considered a man, what about a guy who is going to Med school and won’t be finished for a long time? And if a guy who is going for a degree is a man, that would mean that every immature 17 or 18 year old guy in college is a man!
In any case, the idea of defining someone’s manhood by his job is very not- Jewish. We don’t define people by their hishtadlus for parnassah – that’s very superficial and goyish.
Joseph,
Where does the Torah use the words “boy” or “man”?
It uses the word “guy” but I think it’s referring to a place.
Meno – I was going to ask Joseph the same question, but then I realized he is probably just making the point that a Torahdik definition of manhood is not based on work status. But I guess he can explain for himself.
Meno, It uses the corresponding definitions.
It uses the word “guy” but I think it’s referring to a place.
It also uses “man”, but it’s talking about a type of food.
Memo-gals is said in the midwest and south of the USA. I used to live there, so I would know 🙂 We say many interesting things over there.
Bananot is not a typo. I believe there is a term for boys that is based of the work kof. So not demeaning at all 🙂 Not sure where it comes from…
I says guys a lot and also peoples….
Meno, It uses the corresponding definitions.
The definitions do not correspond.
Who decided that the Torah’s word for boy (yeled, na’ar, whatever it is) actually means boy and vice versa?
Maybe there’s just no better English word to define it.
What’s the English word for “na’arah”?
DY: How do you differentiate the English definitions from what the Torah differentiates between a 12 and 13 year old?
If you were at a store, and two 13 year olds came in, would you say: “I was at the store and two men came in”?
If not than the definitions do not correspond.
Person1: That’s because the goyim consider young men to be children and their laws treat it as such. Furthermore, the goyim keep raising the age of what is considered a child. Even over the past hundred years the non-Jewish definition of child has changed.
To wit, the Israelis definition in Modern Hebrew that the secularists there created uses the term ????? in the equivalent of the English term, not the Torah definition/ages thereof.
Joseph, I think even Gedolim would refer to a 13 year old as a boy and not a man.
Also, even according to the Torah, there is a difference between a 13 year old and a 20 year old, so the concept of adolescence is not completely foreign to Yiddishkeit. I think someone in that age range would probably be called a “naar” or “naara” in Loshon Hakodesh, a guy (if he’s a boy) in english, and a bochur or bochura in Modern Hebrew (although bochur and bochura would last till marriage I think).
It’s true – the one thing that is missing is a term in english for an unmarried girl above 12/18/20.
Na’arah- maiden?
Bananot- a funny derivative of Banot, in the contexts I have heard it used, it has a slightly negative implication.
Guys- I think is used as a generic term. Can be used for girls, or when referring to males, it can be used to gloss over the stage between boyhood and manhood- for example, in dating “I have a great guy for you” sounds more respectful than “I have a great boy for you” (especially if “boy” in question is in his twenties or thirties), but less intimidating than “I have a great man for you”. somehow, though, for females, “girl” is still used in this context until she is married.
lilmod, what I’m suggesting is that the age of adulthood among us Jews being 13, the goyim currently(*) consider the age to be 18. What we start at age 20 you might say the goyim start at age 21, when they, too, have additional milestones of adulthood to be considered attained (i.e. alchohol, gambling, adoption.)
(*)give the goyim another decade and they’ll raise the age again as they continue infantilizing young adults and not hold them responsible for their actions.
In your family, do they have the same expectations from a 13 year old and a 18 year old?
Person1, in your family do they have the same expectations from an 18 year old as from a 50 year old? If not, is the 18 year old not an adult?
How do you differentiate the English definitions from what the Torah differentiates between a 12 and 13 year old?
The rights and responsibilities which the secular world conveys upon one who reaches the age they consider to be an adult (generally, 18) are vastly different than the dinim which apply to a bar or bas mitzvah.
For example, the right to vote or buy cigarettes and alcohol don’t have a parallel in halachah, and the ability to be motzi someone in Kiddush or Birchas Hamazon doesn’t exist in secular law l’havdil.
DY: Consider the age cutoff for legal liabilities in secular law for criminal and civil matters versus Jewish law.
When i read the word bananot I thought it was a typo for bananas …like why would someone call anyone that… in any case the English language is more mixed up than my mommas chulent sloop any thing goes …why waste ur breath debating a language that contradicts itself in so many areas
lilmod ulelamaid – they have terms for that. 0 – 1 baby 1-3 toddler, 4- 9 child, 10 – 12 tween, 13 – 19 teen, 20 – 30 young adult, 30 – 60 adult, 60 and on – senior or elder.
I disagree with a few of your terms:
10-12 are preteens, tweens are those in their twenties- hence the “tw”
These used to be simply considered adults, but now are culturally apart so have their own categories. Also, I would put young adult as younger than you did- say 18-21- overlapping some of the other categories.
WinnieThePooh – these make the most sense in fact i think that psychology also uses the same ages.
Comlink, how were folks supposed to divine your question pertained to shidduchim?
In shidduchim the commonly used counterpart for guy, as generally used in the real world (whether linguistically correct or not), is girl.
That’s what the French call “ah kasha oif ah maaisa”.
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