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  • #2084487

    We finally found something in/with Common: yidden are responsible for their own actions.

    As to China, they didn’t hurt Jews much because mir yeshiva escaped before Mao consolidated power. R Avigdor Miller days that one should learn lessons when he reads about events far away (his example is Vietnam). If one doesn’t learn, Hashem brings problems closer and closer. And the most foolish ones learn only when the problem affects them (one might have thought this was written during COVID, but I digress)

    #2084514
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ obviously you don’t know what you are talking about, Chairman Mao had a very good relationship with Jews because his personal doctor was Jewish. Regardless we are way off topic.

    #2084526

    Common, you seem to see the world only as they relate to Jews. This seems to contradict r Miller quote above: if you choose to be friends with reshoyim if they don’t hurt us personally, you may hvsh invite them to hurt us and only then learn the lesson. Abraham Heschel, while still in Nazi Germany, wrote a “historical” discussion that Sephardim were kicked out of Spain for a reason. Otherwise, they’d join Spaniards in their brutality in America’s – and it is better to be a victim than a perpetrator, sending a message to the German Jews who were upset that Nazis weren’t letting them be patriotic Germans

    #2084612
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, “Common, you seem to see the world only as they relate to Jews.” Actually, unlike you I tend to take a global view and not narrow focus of how it relates to the Jews “This seems to contradict r Miller “, If you know the first thing Rav Miller [and I doubt you do], he despised the Germans with a passion.

    #2084664

    Common, I indeed was not zoche to learn from R Miller in person, only from writings and tape, but I am familiar with his views on the topic. I don’t understand how his views on the topic contradict his equally strong views on learning from history (see above) and taking personal responsibility, like in his moshal of a kind person who invites a stranger into the house, goes to pour another cup of tea, and the crazy stranger meanwhile pouring hot tea into baby’s face. Someone would ask – how is the person punished while doing a mitzva of hesed?! The answer – while doing his hesed, the person did an aveira of leaving a baby with a crazy stranger – and was punished for that. Not understanding this leads people to say crazy things like we do not understand how Hashem can be so unfair (his words up to hear to my best recollection).

    If you want to reconcile here the possible (unproven from the article) rudeness of Germans, you can say that Hasidim, while in the middle of their heilicke trip, tripped on following simple regulations and ahavas briyut, not talking about health of themselves and others, and were punished by given to the cruel German rule-enforces. Those who had masks on (if such exist) were punished for associating with bad neighbors and not preventing hillul Hashem. They were especially punished for associating this embarrassing story with a tzaddik who was such a gentle person that he would not even send a mouse to a galach if he was not prosecuting Jews.

    #2084776
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, Unlike you I met and spoke to Rav Miller and he was very outspoken of his dislike of Germany.
    This episode has nothing to do as to where they were going to or the lack of compliance with rules by a few and everything to do tarring everyone on the flight with a broad brush, hopefully people will stop flying Nazi Air.

    PS do me a favor, half the time you use a CH and half the time you use a H, please stick to one

    #2085073

    common > half the time you use a CH and half the time you use a H, please stick to one

    I addressed the other concerns several times already, but this is a fresh one! Maybe, this is
    maleh or chaser, depending on the level of chasidus. As my (lakewood-affiliated) Rav says when discussing chasidim mentioned in the Gemora: “real chasidim”.

    #2085131

    back to facts: . Another publication that also claimed “a couple of Jews” has a photo on which I counted 6 yidden without masks, 1 with a half-mask, and 1 with a proper mask.

    #2085133
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Says mister reliable and unbiased…

    #2085155
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, That is impressive, 6 yidden without masks out of 127 people, Thanks for proving my point.
    Like they in court, no further questions your honor.

    #2085276
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Lufthansa finally admits that they were wrong.

    #2085435

    > That is impressive, 6 yidden without masks out of 127 people,

    my count is 7 out of 8. You are suggesting that the other 120 were somewhere else law-abiding. I guess this could be true and the law-breakers were standing there, making videos of each other, and then Germanim announced that everyone who looks Jewish is barred. I admit this is possible. Would be helpful to have a confirmation of this, and would then serve me a reminder not to make judgments from fragmented and selected information.

    What then would be a bigger message – not to sit in moshav letzim? If you travel with mis-behaving people and look and act like their chaver, you will be – fairly or not – lumped with them. Again, airline seems to be clearly at fault, but I am talking about a lesson for us.

    #2085463
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Would be helpful to have a confirmation of this, and would then serve me a reminder not to make judgments from fragmented and selected information.”
    No it wouldn’t. You can’t stop yourself from trashing chareidim no matter how hard you have to work to make it real.

    #2085470
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ,:
    Comment 1 “you seem to see the world only as they relate to Jews”
    Comment 2 ,”What then would be a bigger message – not to sit in moshav letzim?”
    You cant have it both ways

    #2085488

    Common,
    (1) is ignoring a person’s behavior unless it directly affects Jews
    (2) is a message for Jews that we should see in every action

    (1) would be to say that Dama b Netina is a goyishe kopf who first lost money and then charged Jews too much, ignoring his middos towards parents
    (2) would be to learn a lesson from him on kivud av, as Gemora does

    #2085492

    Syag > You can’t stop yourself from trashing chareidim

    When I feel a need to trash Germans, I would go to YWN (yekkish world news). Here it is appropriate to discuss how Jews should behave.

    #2085563
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, I find it ironic that someone who always manages to twist any discussion on how it relates to the Jews lecture me for “you seem to see the world only as they relate to Jews”

    #2086374
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @AAQ, in spite of you trying frame every thread into a halacha – hashkafa arguement this is neither, there are 3 parts of this equation.

    1. Flying on an airline owned by the Nazi party, Lufthansa was owned by the Nazi party and was active in the war efforts, the lack of sensitivity displayed by the 127 passengers on the flight is appalling, if @avira’s father an American born MO yid has the sensitivity not buy or rent German cars, children & grandchildren of survivors who have the sensitivity not to fly and airline owned by the Nazis, there are over 60 other airlines flying to that general area.

    2. Lack of mask compliance, As a visibly frum Jew who works in corporate America and having worked under an openly anti semtic boss, I am very cognitive that my personal behavior gets reflected to Jews as a whole and I do my utmost to follow the rule to the T, that being said having flow a dozen time since the outbreak of Corna [you have yet to set foot on a plane] I can tell you that the vast majority of the flight crews prowl the aisles looking to pounce of someone who is not mask compliance. The majority of the airlines are mask free, the yidden who had an issue with mask should have flow on a mask free airline.

    3. Group punishment, make everyone pay for the mistakes of a few, that may work in a army boot camp but it does not work in the free market, the airline know they goofed and said so.

    #2086386

    common, you are right, I am more interested in improving our behaviors than bashing grandchildren of Nazis. I am with you on maintaining behaviors as we are always looked at and represent am Isroel and Hashem and his Torah. Looks like those with less contact with the world and less aware of these issues. Maybe you can help educate the kahal more.

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