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BY has become a problem in the minds of many teenage girls,i have spoken with many and they do seem to enjoy the school and its activities but when asked about how they like the ideas they push and how hard they push them on the girls,most say its a bit to much,they barely know what to do with their life as it is and teachers pressuring them is just making it worse and more confused,if BY really looks out for their best interest they should rethink what they do so they will look better in their eyes
[“you are not required to believe, let alone follow, any of them.”
As a professor, I regret that I must say that is not always the case. There exist academic fads and while undergraduates can ignore them and survive, that is not the case for graduate students and junior faculty.]
I’ve never gone to graduate school, but i would imagine everything is relative to what the student is studying?
As in, if the student is getting a phD in middle easter studies, clearly they will have ideas pushed on them..
But what about an MS in accounting, an MBA, a ST/OT/PT degree…
Those are school experiences where you just go to class, learn, study, graduate and get a job. no outside ideas.
unless I’m mistaken???
sw33t -“I’ve never gone to graduate school, but i would imagine everything is relative to what the student is studying?
As in, if the student is getting a phD in middle easter studies, clearly they will have ideas pushed on them..
But what about an MS in accounting, an MBA, a ST/OT/PT degree…
Those are school experiences where you just go to class, learn, study, graduate and get a job. no outside ideas.
unless I’m mistaken???”
Yes, you are very mistaken. As a matter of fact, the brainwashing (or whatever it is -because it’s not sublimal) in BY’s is expected. E/o knows what goes on with regards to Kollel and being a teacher forever. So if this philosophy doesn’t agree with you -go elsewhere. There are plenty of MO schools around.
But in college it’s much worse. When I went to secular college, not when I went to Touro, I was subjected to the Prof. constant brainwashing (opinion – if you don’t like the brainwashing word) about Woman’s lib. All the reading was geared towards that. I highly doubt if s/o openly voiced a contrary opinion they would have passed her class.
Don’t you know Pres Bush (Pres at that time) is an evil man because he doesn’t believe in abortion? So either you pretended to be with her to survive or many probably started thinking like this because they couldn’t think for themselves. This is Not what college courses should be, but unfortunately a lot are like this.
“I just want to quote this for posterity.”
Feel free to do so.
“So you brainwash your graduate students and junior faculty?”
No. And I never implied that “brainwashing” occurs at all. But there are some academic fads that can take hold, particularly in humanities and softer sciences that are farther removed from empirical data.
Vogue; In which thread did you speak about the girl from chicago? Can you please post the link? Thanks.
Health- you’re saying that girls in BY expect to be brainwashed, so that’s okay, but in college they don’t, so they get influenced.
Is the next step in that chain of reasoning that since girls know not to be brainwashed they should ignore everything they learn in BY? That would seem to be the only difference between BY and college. In both systems there are people who take all their opinions from those of their teachers, and in both there are the people who don’t pay attention at all, or pretend to in order, like you said, to pass the class.
So essentially, what’s your difference here? Is it that girls can just ignore what they hear in BY? Why not just go to a non-religious school, then? And why not just go into college forewarned that people there might (gasp!) actually have opinions unlike your own?
writersoul -“Is the next step in that chain of reasoning that since girls know not to be brainwashed they should ignore everything they learn in BY?”
The ones who don’t believe in that Hashkofa are Not brainwashed, like the OP.
“So essentially, what’s your difference here? Is it that girls can just ignore what they hear in BY?”
They shouldn’t ignore what they hear. They should try to take in the BY Haskofos.
“Why not just go to a non-religious school, then?”
They should go to such a school if they are scared that they might become too Frum. BY is Not for these girls.
“And why not just go into college forewarned that people there might (gasp!) actually have opinions unlike your own?”
Because this is Not the purpose of college. If it was a Catholic college and they pushed their religion that would be fine.
Going to general college and having to put up with their agendas, whether it’s Woman’s Lib or the Toeiva agenda, Is Not fine. As a matter of fact it’s disgusting. People are there for a degree, not to be pounded against their will with s/o else’s beliefs or viewpoints.
Health: Calling something “woman’s lib” is a bit out of date…
But either way, if you argue that people who don’t want to be brainwashed in BYs just won’t end up brainwashed, then why can’t you say the same about college?
If it’s all about what kind of an education you’re expecting, then that’s what YU was made for (or Sarah Schenirer or TTI, if you prefer). The key is not to do something unless you have a reasonable idea of what might or might not result.
“Because this is Not the purpose of college.”
Actually, the purpose of college for many years was supposed to be to expose all students to the important streams of Western thought (mostly non-Jewish), and to teach critical thinking skills. There really isn’t anything inherently wrong with that; a yeshiva or day school graduate who is well-grounded in the ikkarim of our faith and the moral and ethical principles that follow from them will be able to filter out the ideologies that are incompatible with Judaism.
Is there a problem with our educational system that people are coming out not well grounded? I continue to be amazed at the number of frum people who act as if our attitude towards abortion is the same as the Catholic Church, or that the Torah’s attitude towards economics is similar to that of Ayn Rand!
“BY is Not for these girls.”
It is easy to forget given the success of the BY movement, but there was Torah education for girls in Germany and America two generations before Sara Schnirer, in what we would today call “modern orthodox day schools”. While the language in Mishlei is in the masculine, the admonition should apply to girls as well.
writersoul -“But either way, if you argue that people who don’t want to be brainwashed in BYs just won’t end up brainwashed, then why can’t you say the same about college?”
You can.
“If it’s all about what kind of an education you’re expecting, then that’s what YU was made for (or Sarah Schenirer or TTI, if you prefer). The key is not to do something unless you have a reasonable idea of what might or might not result.”
The problem with college brainwashing is it’s dishonest and immoral. The fact that you need a well rounded education for a degree is why they insist on courses like English. But this is not needed for the Major -if it’s a science major. But now to subject you to skewed courses based on s/o’s opinion is disgusting. It doesn’t matter if this opinion is lib left which I disagree with or even if it’s an opinion I agree with, like Conservative views -this should not be part of the course.
Vogue -“And then they get graded on tests based on random information.”
And which college did you go to? I’d like to know because I never heard of a multiple choice exam in English – it’s all essays. The grade is almost all subjective, not objective.
Vogue -“My mom said that. Like you get asked questions on tests like what color tie the professor was wearing on the first day of class as a part of the final exam.”
I’ve been in a few colleges. The only time they ask random questions is to give students freebees (free points). If noone could answer these questions and the teacher used these questions to hurt student grades -this teacher would be history. If the administration wouldn’t fire him/her, even if he/she did it even to one student they would have a big lawsuit on their hands besides the Gov. getting involved.
Vogue: Did your mother have Professor Gilderoy Lockhart?
I once had a question on my bio final about what was my teacher’s favorite animal.
But I was in high school and it was extra credit (and I got it right and got ten points of extra credit, so everything’s wonderful 🙂 ).
Vogue – no – I have no idea who ur talking about. I was just curious to see the link. I think it’s very nice of you to want to protect her privacy.
“The problem with college brainwashing is it’s dishonest and immoral.”
I’m not convinced that any brainwashing is taking place to any significant extent whatsoever. Most professors in departments outside of economics are political liberals yet for a generation the hot author among college students has been Ayn Rand. But far more students are too interested in drinking, partying, and various other hedonisms to pay attention to the ideology of the professor. (That, BTW, may explain the appeal of Ayn Rand — she purported to provide a moral justification for self-centered hedonism — the exact opposite of what the Torah teaches.)
It isn’t that there aren’t problems with secular universities, or that Orthodox students don’t need to be prepared. But one needs to be accurate in the assessment if we are to do good by our young people. Simply calling it “brainwashing” doesn’t help, and with the possible exception of Rabbi Avigdor Miller z’tz’l, who was a graduate of Yeshiva College and not a secular institution, none of the many university-educated gedolim have characterized universities in that way.
I will again assert that the word “brainwashing” is being used incorrectly on this thread, and that it’s being used in a very relative sense, depending on each one’s worldview.
Vogue; K- so I found ur thread. “Bais Yaakov high school, starts their school day at 8:30 and ends at 4:30. Girls are not allowed to have internet in their homes, I have heard from my friends there that the administration there is on the opposite extreme and doesn’t always notice, or attempt to deal with issues girls have. They have significantly fewer options for uniforms. On Rosh Chodesh, you are allowed to wear any white shirt you want, there are restrictions on colors you can wear outside of school, and some other rules.”
I cannot speak for what you said about Hannah Saacks as I don’t know too much about it or their rules. I certainly don’t know what happened with your friend there.
But I can tell you about Bais Yaakov. The girls are allowed to have internet – however it should be with parental approval with a note signed by them. Of course it’s even better if there are filters on the computer. They do not allow television in the home. Regarding the administration – they do attempt to deal with any issues the girls may be having. I have heard many stories regarding their involvement. The only requirement for Rosh Chodesh attire is TZNIUS. I don’t know what “other rules” you are referring to. All I can say is that my daughters loved the school and were very happy with the teachers, administration, and of course the friends. I don’t believe there was any brainwashing there.
Vogue, claiming that they conspire to make the girls fail is ludicrous; maybe you have a different definition of success and failure.
Saying they control them even after graduation is patently false, and would anyhow not be a technique, rather, a result.
My experience with BY (obviously, not as a student) is nothing like you describe.
The bottom line is that for the most part, the girls come out looking much more like a product of their homes than of their schools.
Vogue,
Each school promotes their haghkofa, their dereh, their avoda to Hashem.
They will obviously try to recruit and mold their student into their believes.
However, it is possible that your Avoda and purpose in this World is different
So the challenge is to find your way and what G-d wants from you amidst a forest of different minhagim in Am Yisrael. There are many ways to serve G-d
There is a reason why some people must be Litvishe and can not breath in Chasidishe shul….
Keep covering your legs 🙂 and look for your own personal purpose in life. Figure out how Hashem want You to serve Him. Ignore all other opinions in the process. Don’t let them brainwash you ! 🙂 Hatslaha !
Here is the differnce between Chinuch and College
Lets say you are a Satmar and belive that maybe Rav Kook was correct in his thinking, You will likely be called chuptzadick , Apikoras or excommunicated for daring to question the Satmar Rebbe.
If you are in college and have more conservative views, you might not be looked at favoriably,but they will not excommunicate you . You will not be seen as chutzpadick or disrepectful toward the professors (assuming you disagree respectfully) etc
You will not be seen as chutzpadick or disrepectful toward the professors (assuming you disagree respectfully) etc
In some cases, professors have taken disagreement quite personally, and it’s known about certain professors that if you want to pass, you’d better not disagree.
writersoul: The simple answer is that the baby doesn’t know what Torah Tziva means. The more complex answer is that brainwashing must include (by definition) “subverting an individual’s sense of control over their own thinking”, while a baby or even a child does not really have “their own thinking”.
maybe I’ve just had a different experience then everyone else,
but whenever I took a college course where the professor pushed ideas- and that was NOT in many of my classes, [the only ones I can think of were history, poli sci, and sociology, out of the 150 credits i graudated with]I just tuned them out, wrote what they wanted to hear on exams, and moved on with my life.
In some cases yes, but after that semester you never have to take them again
I had some professors who welcomed debate.
I dont think you could debate Rav Kooks opinions in certain quarters
zahavasdad- you can’t even debate Rav Kooks view on women?
It might very well be true that Ravs Kook view on womens is closer to Satmars than Dati Leumi (for example), but thats irrelevant in the debate as once you bring up his name only one issue matters and thats all that most think of his opinions
Health:
Like I orginally said, I think that the main difference between college brainwashing and Jewish school brain washing is that in college I had the ability and the CHOICE to just write what the prof wanted to hear and move on with my life. If I disagreed with what they said- it’s because I have a different opinion. In Jewish schools I often felt like if i disagreed with what a teacher was saying that meant there was something “differnt”, “bad”, or “wrong” with me.
and no, I was not a trouble maker kid. I pretty much never debated anything with my teachers, and I excelled in all my “hebrew” classes. This was just a subconsious feeling that I had, as a result of being part of the system which brainwashes you into believing that everyone has to think and act the same. Again, I had this both in the BY and MO school I went to- this crosses all sects of orthodoxy, I am not picking on the BY system. I do not regret going to any of the schools I went to, I loved all of them, and I dont mind that I got brainwashed by them, I dont even think its their fault, its just a product of our community, but I refuse to look back on my life and deny that I was brainwashed.
“you can’t even debate Rav Kooks view on women?”
Rav Uziel z’tz’l wrote a long tshuvah in response to Rav Kook’s opinion limiting the role of women in modern society; he pretty much devastated Rav Kook’s arguments. It was very rare for Rav Kook z’tz’l to be proven wrong on anything!
sw33t -“Health: Like I orginally said, I think that the main difference between college brainwashing and Jewish school brain washing is that in college I had the ability and the CHOICE to just write what the prof wanted to hear and move on with my life. If I disagreed with what they said- it’s because I have a different opinion. In Jewish schools I often felt like if i disagreed with what a teacher was saying that meant there was something “differnt”, “bad”, or “wrong” with me.”
And what you didn’t understand is the differences that I wrote. In college most people are Not there to take on the views of the Prof -so they have no business throwing them at you.
In BY the purpose is to take on their views or Hashkofas, otherwise you don’t belong there. Noone that I know was ever forced to go to BY or any Jewish school.
So this whole notion of BY is brainwashing you is ridiculous. If their Kollel and e/o a teacher views bother you -don’t step foot in the school.
As opposed to college, me and e/o else I know went to get a career, not to hear s/o spout their crazy views. Once upon a time this country was somewhat normal -you could just get a degree by just studying the subject material and then you could get a job. Then came along colleges and said you must be well rounded and threw in other things like English. I’m not even talking about the ones who make you take all these left, liberal courses which are mostly against the Torah. If I have to take English, I don’t need to be subjected only to readings that surround Woman’s lib.
If it wouldn’t be for this college exposure, the left wouldn’t have any influence in this country!
Gavra, there is still a long term effect.
Would you consider the fact that we constantly say “Baruch Hashem” as brainwashing our kids into believing in Him? You can argue that most of chinuch is brainwashing.
Gavra, there is still a long term effect.
I agree, which is why I do it myself. As I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with convincing someone to go one way or the other (which is what Chinuch is). The children get to ask (sometimes very good) questions, and we (as parents and mechanchim) try to answer. If our answers are not satisfactory (as per their Da’as), they will go elsewhere.
The only issue (I have, and define as) with “brainwashing” is subjecting someone to something that takes away their Da’as, such as (as an example)(I would think) using social control measures (as well as others) to punish someone for asking a question.
As for your specific point, the Ribbono Shel Olam is always relevant to any conversation.
Brainwashing is a necessary part of ANY education. What is concerning is when ther brainwashing has a negative connotation, i.e., to believe that someone is inherently less worthy because of his skin color or where he went to school, or how much money his family is worth. It is not bad to brainwash someone into doing mitzvos and having good middos. The word has a negative connotation. Substitute “educational reinforcement” for brainwashing.
Oomis, that is my point (except that I don’t think our educational institutions use actual mind control).
People use the term “brainwashing” when they don’t like the message being conveyed, but brainwashing is actually a technique.
I do not think that there is any significant amount of true, subliminal brainwashing going on in either seminary or in college; there is simply a certain worldview being pushed. And there should be; arguably the most important goal of a school is to ensure that the its students have the proper worldview. The obvious problem is that different people have different opinions as to what exactly is the proper world view. However, to insist all seminaries as “brainwashers” merely because they espouse a hashkafa that you disagree with is intellectually dishonest.
(Also, the argument can be made that the little true brainwashing that does occur in schools is largely accidental. When a teacher says “when you go to college, you will see the full extent of this concept” odds are that he is not intentionally trying to brainwash his students to go to college; he is simply speaking from his assumptions.)
Now, I do agree that the BY system should be more open to answering questions, and should perhaps inform its students of financial the realities of kollel life; but that doesn’t make the entire system “brainwashing”.
However, to insist all seminaries as “brainwashers” merely because they espouse a hashkafa that you disagree with is intellectually dishonest.
As I have said earlier, I have no problem with a Bais Yaakov that honestly espouses its world-view.
When a teacher says “when you go to college, you will see the full extent of this concept” odds are that he is not intentionally trying to brainwash his students to go to college; he is simply speaking from his assumptions.
Agreed. IMHO it is not brainwashing/mind control to state that a concept will be understood more in higher learning, no less than a Rebbe bringing up the Pashut Pshat in Rashi and saying there is a deeper Pshat.
Now, I do agree that the BY system should be more open to answering questions, and should perhaps inform its students of financial the realities of kollel life; but that doesn’t make the entire system “brainwashing”.
Agreed. This does:
My seminary principal and many teachers tried the first technique of brainwashing, saying when you’ll be teaching and supporting your husband you’ll appreciate this tip giving a random money saving tip in a random lesson.
If the teacher said, “when you have your own kids, you’ll understand”, would she be brainwashing the students into marriage and having kids?
If the teacher said, “when you have your own kids, you’ll understand”, would she be brainwashing the students into marriage and having kids?
No, “the teacher” would be brainwashing NOT to have children 😉
That being said, it depends on the context and whether it is systematic. If the course is regarding diaper changing and it is in the open, then no. Once again from Wikipedia:
Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, menticide, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual “systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated”.[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual’s sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.
(Emphasis added).
Each case has to be looked at in context to see whether the Da’as of a person is being subverted.
DaasYochid- if it’s a math lesson, and she’s in middle of teaching about hyperbolas and says “I really don’t have energy for this now. When you have kids you’ll understand that there are things so much more important than math. I always make sure to spend at least an hour a day just playing with my kids. Remember that when you’re the mother of ten kids- if you have to fold laundry, fold it with your kids. Like that they’ll have time with you.” then yes.
unethically manipulative
This term kind of makes the whole idea of brainwashing entirely subjective.
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