June 1, 2023 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2194877WolfishMusingsParticipant
Just “appreciating” the fact that, according to the OP, the MO isn’t considered part of the “Torah world.” I shudder to think what world they do consider them to be in.
The WolfJune 1, 2023 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2194882smerelParticipant
>>>Could there be some sort of rabbinic board that connects the frum YU type and the Yeshivish Velt.
What for? Other than having members from both groups what other function would that rabbinic board have?
There isn’t any internal apparatus preventing a MO rabbi from becoming a member of Agudah if he wanted to. There isn’t any internal apparatug preventing a Yeshvish rav from joining the RCA either. There isn’t any internal apparatus preventing members of both groups from joining the hisachdus. The reason why they chose not to do so is why their won’t be such a rabbinic group either. The people involved have too much uncommon ground to be in a joint group without friction with other members ever coming up. Therefore better not to try to begin with.
There are venues that venues that representatives of Agudah, the hisacdus and the RCA all attend when there is clear common ground.June 2, 2023 12:41 am at 12:41 am #2195055HaKatanParticipant
You are denying and distorting reality and, as in the past, not addressing the clear and specific points mentioned.June 2, 2023 12:43 am at 12:43 am #2195050Pine Lake ParkParticipant
I heard there is a MO yeshiva in st Louis MOJune 2, 2023 1:28 am at 1:28 am #2195065
“If the commitment is relatively higher by the MO, than that should be applauded and used as an example.”
It isn’t though, assuming you mean commitment to halachah. Is anyone even claiming that to be the case?
“Applies to every group. Otherwise there wouldn’t be different groups.”
No, we had this similar discussion in another thread, and in fact, you were the one pointing out that different groups exist even without halachic differences.
“You’ll find Anti Zionism even by the militant Mizrachi.”
This is categorically untrue. You need to brush up on what Mizrachi means as a movement/hashkafa. They are, by definition, Zionist. If someone is Anti Zionist, then they can’t claim to be Mizrachi. We don’t mean Mizrachi as in Middle Eastern mesora if that’s what the confusion is.
“So leave it out of this discussion.”
No thanks. This is the YWN Coffeeroom.June 2, 2023 7:13 am at 7:13 am #2195073FollowMesorahParticipant
I live in Teaneck (or rather Bergenfield). You have misrepresented what goes on here. While it is true there is a “righter” wing element that goes to schools like Heichal, the vast majority do not. And Avirah is unfortunately correct about what happens with that majority…
DA Moshe, we need to be able to call it out for it is, even though it makes us feel like we are punched in the gut. What do we gain by promoting the vast minority that go to this one yeshiva as though it shia where the MO community at large stands?
Let’s hope the more “right wing” of Teaneck and Bergenfield continues to grow. But even if it does, it is not the MO of this discussion.June 2, 2023 8:19 am at 8:19 am #2195078
EEEE but it is. Even the righter wing of Teaneck just isn’t connected with the rest of the Torah world. Their only frame of reference when it comes to Rabbanus are mainly YU rabbis; they couldn’t name you the top yeshivas in America and their roshei yeshiva. The only way it will truly grow is if they get connected to the rest of the Torah world like Passaic does for example.June 2, 2023 10:01 am at 10:01 am #2195108
He’s helping your side of this debate. Don’t get greedy. The right wing MO crowd absolutely could name the top yeshivas in America and might even send their kids to them. Many of them are fine with their kids growing up yeshivish even if they themselves are MO.
This faction of the MO world, for whatever reason, choses to keep identifying as Modern even though they would probably be a lot happier and comfortable if they just crossed the isle; maybe it’s a matter of pride. Anyway, as EE correctly pointed out, they are a tiny, tiny minority of the MO and it would be dishonest to pretend they represent the whole thing just like it’s dishonest when people claim the 1% of Chabad that’s still old-school-Chassidishe is the authoritative representation of Chabad.June 2, 2023 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #2195120
Let’s also be honest that there is a newish classification of just plain “modern” when applied to those who came from black hat families but now don’t identify as such.
Growing communities (even in Lakewood) whose commitment is indistinguishable from MO, and perhaps even worse. They keep shabbos and minimal kashrut but might not put on tzitzis or only go to shul on shabbos.
Ideologically they aren’t “MO” Perhaps subconsciously they have deeper guilt feelings . But from what I can tell there are minimal differences.
This group is now having kids. I’m assuming the day will come soon when there are schools even in Lakewood whose children are growing up in houses where there are tv’s.
So why can’t we just agree that there are ideological differences between the camps . But there is much movement between these camps.June 2, 2023 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2195126
It’s very weird because the outstanding majority of your posts have a nationalistic feel to them. Either we all totally agree with what you post because you understand it to be based on what your people always knew to be the truth. Or we are completely wrong and are malicious in our attempt to corrupt the truth.June 2, 2023 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2195128
Please allow me to clarify.
Relatively – MO is starting with a lower halachic standard. If the law people go beyond that standard out of a personal commitment, that is worth noting. Every Rav in every group wants that from his lay people.
I would rather be on that other thread. Still, every group has it’s leniency and it’s weakness. The point of groups in general, is to have orthodoxy by association. Otherwise, let each family stand on it’s own merits.
The form of Anti Zionism by Mizrachi is that the government seeks it’s own power and justifications beyond advocating Mizrachi ideals. There are factions that broke of the State when they gave back land.
I don’t get the value of mixing together different topics. One who could only argue Zionism keeps bringing everything into it. In the end Zionism must be legitimized because it contains such a vast hold over all other arguments.June 2, 2023 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2195129
The Torah World today is fractured and disjointed. Who do zoom think you are fooling?June 2, 2023 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #2195151
Neville, I’ll explain why plenty of people still identify as MO – myself included.
In the chareidi/yeshivish world, people are taught that learning in kollel is the only real option for life. College is viewed as a horrible thing by most yeshivos. People are taught that using the internet is forbidden, unless absolutely necessary to earn a living. Not everyone believes in that. Does it mean that people are lax in their observance of halachah? Absolutely not! But the yeshivish world believes in a cookie cutter system, where everyone must fit the same shape. Chanoch l’naar al pi darko is ignored.
Then we get to the chumros. Chumros for everything, a new chumrah comes out every week for something else. Chumros with no basis in halachah, with no real Rabbonim behind them – but in the yeshivish world, they end up accepted as the norm. People realize that many of these chumros are not really necessary, and don’t want to buy into a system that pushes them.
That’s partially why many don’t want to identify as yeshivish/chareidi.June 2, 2023 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #2195209
“In the chareidi/yeshivish world, people are taught that learning in kollel is the only real option for life.”
With the MO you use a “no true Scotsman” argument to weed out the “left wing” others are referring to. With the Yeshivish, you use false stereotypes. The OP is clearly inflammatory. Why accept its premise and give inaccurate definitions for these groups?
“College is viewed as a horrible thing by most yeshivos. People are taught that using the internet is forbidden, unless absolutely necessary to earn a living.”
I think the primary philosophical differences relate to dress, Zionism (e.g., saying a mi-sheberach for the medina, hallel on Yom Haazmaut, placing religious significance on the medina, etc.) and these issues you mention. I am a BT and I spent years in a university environment. It is indeed a horrible environment for a frum person. I think you ignore the attempts that the yeshivsh community is making to mitigate this. Online classes, programs that offer filtered laptops, and programs that are condensed and focused (without the substantial liberal arts coursework required by most universities even for STEM majors) are becoming more common, and gradually more responsive to frum sensibilities.
As far as the Internet, do you not see unfiltered internet as a danger?
“But the yeshivish world believes in a cookie cutter system, where everyone must fit the same shape.”
This is hardly unique to the yeshivish world.
“Then we get to the chumros. Chumros for everything, a new chumrah comes out every week for something else.”
Can you name a new chumra that came out last week and was adopted en masse by the yeshivish community? Or in the last 6 months? And what chumros are you so strongly opposed to? So what if someone can’t eat your chalav stam dairy, or your gebrocts on Pesach, or who comes up as a “green bubble” on your iPhone because he’s got a flip phone with SMS only?June 2, 2023 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2195218
Charedim don’t believe in Kollel for a whole entire life. Take a look at Flatbush Lakewood and Passaic there are many yeshivish Baal Habatim who make time to learn every day and are very successful. Starting our married life fully learning is a special thing to do if everyone in the shidduch is on board with it and the guy is truly learning full time.
Modern Orthodox Jews going to mixed college campuses at age 18 is a problem today.
Do modern Orthodox rabbis encourage the use of filters for internet use?
These are very big issues that plague the MO world.
There’s a big difference between going to Touro and learning part time than going full time to a secular college.June 2, 2023 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2195219
Charedim don’t believe in Kollel for a whole entire life. Take a look at Flatbush Lakewood and Passaic there are many yeshivish Baal Habatim who make time to learn every day and are very successful. Starting our married life fully learning is a special thing to do if everyone in the shidduch is on board with it and the guy is truly learning full time.June 2, 2023 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2195237
I left the MO world the day I went for my YU interview and saw posters of model’s hanging in the dorms. I realized you can’t be both a yeshiva and a university.
Ultimately after frumming out I ended up in Brooklyn college. It was a cesspool 30 years ago. Now very few black hat guys end up there. There are much better options like touro/landers
I would never pay for kids to go to a place like Brooklyn let alone an Ivy League college. But in the MO world they look at it as an act of distinction to go to Harvard as opposed to the travesty it truly isJune 2, 2023 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #2195245
While not ideal for everyone there are plenty of frum people who go to Brooklyn college and go to a Yeshiva for 1 or 2 sedarim a day.June 3, 2023 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #2195354
All the discussions about protection from internet and secular colleges is important in terms of protecting people from assimilation. And this is practically very important and yeshivish/chasidic communities are more successful in keeping people within. At the same time, don’t confuse these measures (that Hazon Ish called “desert”) with all Jewish (Hashem’s) values. Torah does not require looking at down at people who have less chumros; dressing in black hats; staying ignorant of science; relying on non-Jewish charity or unwilling Israeli taxpayers to support their learning, etc, etc. This is like Chava confusing siyag with Torah.June 3, 2023 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #2195357
Everything you said is just nonsense MO propaganda that they say about the chareidi would to console themselves. It’s kind of sad that that’s the primary reason anyone would continue to identify as modern.
“But the yeshivish world believes in a cookie cutter system, where everyone must fit the same shape.”
The yeshivish world contains learning guys, balhabatim, and various people trying to do a combination of both. The modern world contains ONLY people deeply entrenched in the secular, working world. Any community is going to have this “cookie cutter” problem, but I actually think it’s way worse for the MO. If you don’t believe me, try fitting into an MO community while making under a six-figure salary.
“Relatively – MO is starting with a lower halachic standard. If the law people go beyond that standard out of a personal commitment, that is worth noting.”
Lol, okay then I would like to take this moment to make note of the fact that the Reform Jews are the holiest and frummest yidden because they fully make good on the level of halacha to which they commit, which is nothing at all. They often even go above and beyond by actually doing something.
“The form of Anti Zionism by Mizrachi is that the government seeks it’s own power and justifications beyond advocating Mizrachi ideals.”
That’s not anti-zionism, that’s just disliking the government running Israel. Radical Zionists probably hate the government more than anyone, just like how far right patriots in America hate the government more than anyone.
“Ideologically they aren’t “MO” Perhaps subconsciously they have deeper guilt feelings . But from what I can tell there are minimal differences.”
What you’re describing is yeshivish people who are going off the derech. You’ve accidentally made a good point, which is that when yeshivish people go off the derech, they still just wind up basically being MO Jews.June 4, 2023 1:02 am at 1:02 am #2195390
And is possible that you aren’t actually aware of the off the derech problem in the yeshivish community ?
Because I find it hard to believe that there is someone out there who is blind to the fact that for every yeshivish kid who became “modern” there is at least one who is truly off the derech
And it isn’t just kids. I know numerous marriages broken up Bc one spouse decided to go off (and also one couple that decided to do it together)June 4, 2023 1:03 am at 1:03 am #2195389
I take issue with you calling them “off the derech” and it’s the same issue I have with Da labeling things as “chumros”
To illustrate I will quote Rav miller on naso (todays toras avigdor. Get the set if you don’t already have it)
“Every Jew looks at those better than him as being fanatics”
That’s why Da thinks all of Lakewood is full of Jews running after chumros
But the reverse is also true
You seem to hold everyone below you is off the derech
I think there is room to acknowledge that we all need to grow while acknowledging that making excuses for staying stagnant is just that, an excuseJune 4, 2023 1:03 am at 1:03 am #2195388
I’m not saying that at all
By no means are these kids off the derech
They are products of yeshiva high schools that cater to these groups and were successful at keeping them on the derech
But their level of commitment is not what they’re rabbeim we’re hoping for. And they are getting married to similar girls.
Their kids wear yarmulkas (colored ones of course). And are going to frum play groups. And there will be a need for community type schools for their kids.
They are all over the place . Including clusters around Lakewood.June 4, 2023 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2195447
Back to original question about bridging the gap. I was once told by a wise Rav – Yidden can not pray together, but they can learn together. So, maybe this could be the way – both personally in your interactions and also here. This is a unique place where we can discuss Torah from multiple views and, hopefully, with integrity that Tora requires, rather than approaching issues as politics, where you can quote only sources that support your position and disparage those who hold opposite ones.
Maybe same can be happening at the level of Talmidei Chachamim. It says at the end of Sotah that T’Ch who live in the same town and do not learn together – one dies, another goes to exile… How often do we have such Torah discussions? We hear about Rabbis of previous generation having good personal relationships (R Feinstein/R Soloveichik/L Rebbe, etc), but how often we hear them learning together? Maybe invite a Rav from a different shul to have a public hevrusa with your Rav?June 4, 2023 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #2195485
“And is possible that you aren’t actually aware of the off the derech problem in the yeshivish community?”
When did I ever deny this? Seemed like I was confirming the issue rather than denying it.
“I take issue with you calling them “off the derech” and it’s the same issue I have with Da labeling things as “chumros””
Call it whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy. If someone significantly steps down from how they were raised, I think that’s going off the derech. I think if a super chassidishe person shaved and became the same level of frum that I am, that would be going off the derech for him relative to his upbringing. It has nothing to do with my approval of communities or lack thereof.
“By no means are these kids off the derech”
The way you described them earlier certainly sounded like it. You now seem to be backpedaling a bit on just how off these people are.June 4, 2023 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #2195509
No, not backpedaling
Just not buying into your redefinition of “off the derech”June 4, 2023 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #2195514
There are many chumros that the yeshivish world keeps, and that’s fine. I don’t look at people who keep chumros as fanatics. My issue is when they expect everyone else to keep them. Here are some examples:
Mixed seating at simchos – there is no halachic need for separate seating, yet many yeshivish people expect everyone to do it, and will tell you that there’s something wrong with having mixed seating.
Tznius – many, many chumros were instituted. Knees and elbows covered isn’t enough anymore. Now you need everything down to the toes. Leggings aren’t ok, only tights are.
Chalav Yisrael – it’s a chumrah, yet this gets pushed by so many people. I even know of one person who threw out a Reese’s bar rather than give it to someone who eats chalav stam.
I don’t view yeshivish people as being more frum than me. It’s a different derech, and both are valid. I don’t try and push my derech on others. I’d like the same respect in return.June 4, 2023 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #2195527smerelParticipant
>>>I left the MO world the day I went for my YU interview and saw posters of model’s hanging in the dorms. I realized you can’t be both a yeshiva and a university.
I’m not sticking up for YU or the MO world but in fairness and accuracy the type of people who hang up pictures of modelsin the dorm are probably not in the YU Yeshiva program anyway. They are probably either in The James Striar of Isaac Bruer program at YU neither of which claim to be a Yeshiva. Those programs justify their existence and lack of religious observance by SOME of their students saying that if we did not offer them this framework they would be in a lot worse environment (James Striar focuses on those who did not grow up frum and try to be mekarav them) Whether they are right or wrong or whether even if they are right, those programs should be located on a separate campus , is a different question but they don’t in essence disprove any validity to YU and MOJune 4, 2023 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #2195531AviraDeArahParticipant
Da….oh where to begin, where do i start…
Separate seating is not a chumra. Rav moshe says any public affair requires a mechitzah mikar hadin, and is doubtful if a wedding is private or public..
Separation of genders was the norm throughout chazal, rishonim, achronim..only in later years did people deviate from it, because of modernity and lack of tznius in general.
Regardless, in Litvishe towns like kelm they had separate sides of the street…the fact that americanized jews didn’t do it doesn’t make a normative standard a chumra.
I will grant that rav moshe calls cholov yisroel in America a chumra, but keeping a normative halacha which had a heter given to it is not a “yeshivish” thing, it’s simply not relying on a heter, Especially when 99% of rav moshes talmidim – excluding notably his sons – held that rav moshe was only giving the heter bedieved, ahen cholov yisroel was hard to come by. Following those poskim – and those who argued with the heter to begin with – can’t be called a yeshivish chumra. It’s rav moshes chidush that it’s mutar.
Tznius – yes, and asheichem yisroel. The chasam sofrr writes that when the surrounding society is lax in an inyan, we are supposed to go to the other extreme to combat it. But most yeshivish people don’t keep all of those chumros…but the poskim are clear, for example, about the 4 inch rule, as well as things rhat are mikar hadin, like slits. Would you rather have chumros in a mitzvah that defines klal yisroel and adds kedushah (ain chiba lifnei hamakom yoser min hatznius..) or would you rather have a culture which teaches girls that it’s a “personal choice” and that they aren’t to be judged if they choose to dress against halacha?
Also, long skirts down to the toes are forbidden in bais yakovs; i don’t know where you get your info from, but it’s probably the coffee room in MO world where only satmar is anti Zionist and yeshiva people are “cavemen”June 4, 2023 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #2195548
You started out by saying they keep minimally kosher and don’t wear tzitzis, then later you end up saying they changed from black to colored yarmulkes. One of these is a much bigger departure than the other.
“I even know of one person who threw out a Reese’s bar rather than give it to someone who eats chalav stam.”
Suddenly everyone has to hold like Reb Moshe? How do you justify all the times the MO differs from him, then? Do you believe it’s only okay to disagree with Reb Moshe in the direction of being meikel?
Cholov Yisroel is a stam halacha for which there is a heter than gets you around it. Same is true for kemach yoshon. Popularity of a heter doesn’t make it any less so. The majority of klal yisroel relies on the yoshon heter, yet it would be silly to say that somebody keeping the chiyuv doraisa of avoiding chadash is doing a “chumrah.” The other 90% of us are doing a kulah, and some of us have enough self-awareness to admit it rather than pretending everyone not like us is crazy.June 4, 2023 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #2195538
DaMoshe: Yeshivish people do not demand the MO stop having mixed seating. But do not expect Yeshivish or Chasidish friends or family to attend your weddings if it is mixed seating. They do not have to, should not and will not, compromise their “chumra” to make you happy.
And don’t expect them to eat from your house, with your cholov stam and hechsheirim they do not rely on. Or come into your neighborhood where the women are running around in short skirts and shirts. Or attend your shiurim where your rabbis preach wrongheaded hashkofos.
And the fellow who threw out the Hershey’s chocolate holds it is treif, per the psak of his posek. So he cannot give it to someone else, even if the other fellow holds otherwise. It isn’t a chumra. It is halacha, even if you disagree.June 4, 2023 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2195557
a quick search for kelm shows several images with streets and markets with men only, also an image of children with various parents of all genders accompanying them, and a 1920 photo of non-yeshivish school with parents with no assigned seating at all. Was the takana for separate street sides at some specific times?June 4, 2023 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2195558
If you do not eat chalav hacompanies, would you consider plates treif?June 4, 2023 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2195559
As discussed in Nedorim, chumras are a double-edge sword, it can elevate you and it can make you into a rasha. Someone in Boro Park surrounded by Yiddishe stores would be silly to suddenly rely on the heter just to eat M&Ms. At the same time, someone who is from a family where the heter is used and who has, say, temper and attitude and learning problems – going for cholov isroel might help in some cases, leading to more observance, or deceive in other cases , making him presume that chumros will make other problems go away.June 4, 2023 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #2195560
Aveirah, you’re missing my point. People want to accept those chumros? Fine, not a problem. But don’t start putting down those who don’t keep them. As for where my information comes from, it’s from my own observances and experiences. As for you… you know how when some people go OTD, they become the biggest antisemites? You’re the same way with MO. You decided it wasn’t for you, and left that group, and became so virulently against it that you just can’t possibly think of any good in it. Get over it!
Chaim Berlin: The point isn’t whether people always go like R’ Moshe or not. The point is that eating chalav stam is not assur, but baal tashchis is. This guy put his chumrah over an actual halachah.June 4, 2023 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #2195581
> And the fellow who threw out the Hershey’s chocolate holds it is treif, per the psak of his posek. So he cannot give it to someone else, even if the other fellow holds otherwise.
This. is what keeps us apart. You could at least give it to your goyishe friend or cleaner crew, or to your dog.June 4, 2023 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #2195600AviraDeArahParticipant
“or to your dog.”
And here we have a contender for most out of touch comment made this yearJune 4, 2023 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #2195603
AAQ: Yet a Yid who doesn’t eat Cholov Akum cannot give it to a Jew who eats Cholov Stam, since according to the poskim who forbid it, and who he holds by, halachicly deem it to be Cholov Akum/treif, as they do not subscribe to the Kula of Cholov Stam.June 5, 2023 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2195725simcha613Participant
UJM- Hmm… I wonder if that’s true. At the end of the first perek of Yevamos, it says that even though Beis Shamai declared some keilim as tamei, and Beis Hill declared those same keilim as tahor, they still loaned things to one another. The meforshim explain, it’s because they had mutual respect for each other’s opinions, and Beis Shammai trusted Beis Hillel that BH would never loan BS a kli that BS considered tamei, even if BH themselves found nothing wrong with it (the parallel here is that someone who only eats Chalav Yisroel should be able to trust that their Chalav Stam neighbor would never serve them Chalav stam).
But the meforshim say nothign about the reverse… would BS lend BH a kli that BS considered tamei even if BH considered them tahor? Would BS respect BH enough to allow them to be meikil, and to even be a part of that kula, when they themselves hold it’s a problem? I always assumed that BS would have no problem doing this but I could be wrong.June 5, 2023 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #2195793
“And the fellow who threw out the Hershey’s chocolate holds it is treif, per the psak of his posek. So he cannot give it to someone else, even if the other fellow holds otherwise.
This. is what keeps us apart. You could at least give it to your goyishe friend or cleaner crew, or to your dog.”
Dan l’kaf zechus, maybe the fellow was pushy about trying to take the Hershey’s chocolate. Or was worried that if he told the fellow, “I’m not gonna give it to you, but I’ll give it to a goy” would be offensive? Or maybe he holds that artificial flavors, hydrogenated oils, and whatnot are not real food fit to eat?
As for the dog, if you don’t like dogs, fine, but to poison them is going a bit too far, don’t you think? Hershey’s chocolate would possibly kill a dog.June 5, 2023 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #2195796
Simcha: Cholov Yisroel is NOT a Chumra. Cholov Stam is a Kula. (Even the poskim that permit use of this Kula acknowledge that it is a Kula.) And not all poskim hold it is a valid Kula. In which case, to them, Cholov Stam is Cholov Akum and thus unkosher. If they hold it isn’t a valid Kula, they are prohibited from even facilitating or helping another Jew obtain Cholov Stam, even if the other fellow does use the Kula.
Your comparison to Beis Hillel/Beis Shammai is mistaken. A more apt comparison would be the MO Jew telling a Chareidi that you cannot eat the food from my home since my keilim were used to make Cholov Stam food and/or I used my pots and pans, dishes and utensils with food products using hechsheirim that you hold isn’t acceptable. Therefore I’ll feed you with prepackaged food with a heimishe hechsher and I’ll serve it to you on paper good and plastic utensils.
Beis Shammai certainly would not loan Beis Hillel keilim that Beis Shammai held is tamei since a) they wouldn’t keep such keilim and b) even if they had it, they hold it is tamei so they are prohibited to facilitate another Jew using it.June 5, 2023 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #2195845
my experience with YU was 1 day long and i didnt stick around long enough to find out about different programs (in fact i was so upset i went straight home before the interview)
I found out later that there are different dorms. My YI Rabbi who wanted me to go there was disappointed and told me “of course I would have made sure you are in the better dorm”
But the guys I was visiting were frum. I was with the brother of one of them who was a friend of mine and they grew up in a more modern home in BP
I do not deny there are good people there
I have had the pleasure of having some eat at my table on shabbos. I have had Stern girls who are indistinguishable from bais yaakov girls. I am just relaying my experience. BH it happened. It set me on a different path.June 5, 2023 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #2195851
I don’t think people who don’t eat chalav stam is treif. Rav Moshe wouldn’t be matir something that’s treif. There’s no issue hanaah by chalav stam. Someone who throws it out instead of giving it to someone who does eat it is wasting food.June 5, 2023 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #2195852
I need to agree with ujm
when it comes to keilim, the gemarah categorizes jews as chaverim or am haratzim
a chaver would always toivel the keli of an am haaretz, and he would never eat his food (which is always tamei d’rabbanum)
It could be that bais shamei and hillel (both chaverim) made exceptions among themselves
but using the MO/chareidi example it is clear the chareidi would toivel the keli of the MO (and he probably wouldn’t eat his food)June 5, 2023 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #2195861
“There are many chumros that the yeshivish world keeps, and that’s fine. … Here are some examples:
Mixed seating at simchos… Tznius… Chalav Yisrael…”
None of these chumros were invented in the past week, or even in the last generation. And none of them were made without rabbinical guidance.
“Mixed seating at simchos – there is no halachic need for separate seating, yet many yeshivish people expect everyone to do it”
I don’t think they “expect” everyone to do it. And “many yeshivish people” may indeed view it as a halachic issue. So when they’re invited to a mixed simcha, they have to figure out how to navigate it.
“and will tell you that there’s something wrong with having mixed seating.”
Other than online debating forums like this one, how often does this happen to you in real life? Are you making mixed seating simchos in New Square or Kiryas Yoel? Are your family members largely yeshivish or chassidish? Are you inviting tons of yeshivish and chassidish people to your simchos? Because I doubt yeshivish and chassidish people are out roaming the streets of Teaneck looking for simchos to criticize.
“Tznius – many, many chumros were instituted. Knees and elbows covered isn’t enough anymore. Now you need everything down to the toes. Leggings aren’t ok, only tights are.”
Yeah, there’s some variability in communal dress standards. But women in Yeshivish communities don’t typically wear dresses to the floor. Your description seems like scattershot stereotypes.
“Chalav Yisrael – it’s a chumrah, yet this gets pushed by so many people. I even know of one person who threw out a Reese’s bar rather than give it to someone who eats chalav stam.”
I have no idea what went on regarding the Reece’s candy incident, but are MO communities free of jerks? Through personal experience, I can say unfortunately not. Should I paint an entire community based on negative interactions with a handful of people? Re: chalav stam, for some it’s a chumrah, but for others (e.g., Satmars, Chabad), it’s considered chalav akum and completely forbidden.
“I don’t view yeshivish people as being more frum than me. It’s a different derech, and both are valid. I don’t try and push my derech on others. I’d like the same respect in return.”
This feels like moved goalposts to me. The point of your previous post was why right wing MO supposedly refuse to identify as yeshivish. And the tone of your criticisms indicates both that you do not indeed see the derech as valid, and that your picture of them is more of a caricature than reality.June 5, 2023 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #2195862
“the MO Jew telling a Chareidi that you cannot eat the food from my home since my keilim were used to make Cholov Stam food and/or I used my pots and pans, dishes and utensils with food products using hechsheirim that you hold isn’t acceptable. Therefore I’ll feed you with prepackaged food with a heimishe hechsher and I’ll serve it to you on paper good and plastic utensils.”
This is hachnasas orchim! The goal of feeding people is to make them feel comfortable.June 5, 2023 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #2195877
Read R’ Bender’s sefer on Chumash, from last week’s parsha, to see what a Rebbe at Darchei held about chalav stam. I’ve posted the story before, and it’s something everyone should know.June 5, 2023 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2195987
“There’s no issue hanaah by chalav stam.”
There’s no issur hanaah by mamash cholov akum either, but you still can’t feed it to a fellow Jew.
“The point is that eating chalav stam is not assur, but baal tashchis is.”
Lifnei iver is. Would you criticize him for not giving pork to his Reform friend?
“This guy put his chumrah over an actual halachah.”
Again, it’s not a chumrah no matter how many times you repeat it. Some people might keep it “l’chumrah,” this guy clearly keeps it l’halachah. People are not required to hold by Reb Moshe’s kulah. This is 100% about you wanting everyone to hold exactly like you, then you accuse us of being guilty of exactly what you’re doing.June 5, 2023 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #2196121
I’m not accusing but you can’t call something that Rav Moshe is Matir that it’s treif. That’s dishonest propaganda.June 5, 2023 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2196126
It turns out that chumra has its own wiki entry
Here’s a quote
A second meaning of chumra is simply “a stricter interpretation of a Jewish law (Halakha), when two or more interpretations exist”.
Those who adopt such a stringency do not feel they are adding to the halakha. Rather, they think they are following the baseline requirement (if the strict interpretation is correct) or at least “covering their bases” (if it is impossible to determine whether the strict or lenient opinion is correct). Nevertheless, such stringency may be seen as adding to halacha by someone who believes the lenient interpretation (qulla) is correct.
Seems to me this pretty much sums up the arguments we have here
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