June 5, 2023 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #2196135Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Neville, I think the question comes to – how do you relate to someone who follows R Moshe’s opinion on chalav hacompanies. You compared it to giving pork to Refor, I presume that was just a figure of speech. As well as calling chalav hacompanies chalav akum, both are disrespect both to whole communities of Yidden and R Moshe. That does not seem to bother anyone who feels frummer because he is keeping chumros.
And it is not here, not there whether this is a kula or a chumra – commercial milk and USDA did not exist in earlier times.June 5, 2023 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #2196162
“You compared it to giving pork to Refor, I presume that was just a figure of speech.”
Correct. The point was that it’s lifnei iver if you pasken that way.
“As well as calling chalav hacompanies chalav akum”
No, you misunderstood. I wasn’t calling chalav stam chalav akum. I was talking about actual chalav akum (eg. milk you purchase in Iraq or something). It was a side point about issurei hanaah.June 5, 2023 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #2196179
“I’m not accusing but you can’t call something that Rav Moshe is Matir that it’s treif.”
Treif wouldn’t be the proper word, but if people hold l’halachah not by the cholov stam heter, then they hold that it is assur and giving it to another Jew would be lifnei iver by them.
This same differentiation would be present between one who holds R”T Tzeis l’chumra vs. l’halachah for motzei Shabbos, or Shabbos generators in Israel, or shmitta produce, etc. If you hold something l’halachah, you can’t facilitate or benefit from other people transgressing it.June 5, 2023 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #2196180Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
You will feel more comfortable in Iraq, where you may not to have a goy as your barber, but you can trust him on the milk! I heard from some anashim peshutim from there that they had hard time adjusting to American kashrut. For them, muslims could be trusted on a lot of simple foods.June 6, 2023 1:52 am at 1:52 am #2196214
Hakatan- chalav Yisroel is a chumra in the sense that there are reliable poskim who don’t require it. Unless you don’t consider R’ Moshe a reliable posek. Chumra does not mean unnecessary or even optional. For those Jews who have poskim who are machmir are certainly required min hadin to follow that psak.
But since every frum Jew has a right to rely on their posek, assuming that that poske is reliable, I find it hard to believe that it would be a prohibition of lifnei iveir to assist or even enable a Jew to rely on their psak, even if your posek rules differently.June 6, 2023 4:43 am at 4:43 am #2196313
As a follow up, it seems like R’ Melamed rules that it wouldn’t be an issue of lifnei iveir to enable or assist someone in relying on a lenient psak given by a reliable posek
“ויש טוענים, שכשם שאסור לקנות פירות מחשודים על עבודה בשביעית, כדי שלא לסייע לדבר עבירה, כך אסור לקנות מפירות שגודלו במסגרת ‘היתר המכירה’. אולם כיוון שהחקלאים עובדים על פי היתר הרבנים, אין במעשיהם שום עבירה. והטוענים שאסור לסייע להם, מבטלים לגמרי את דברי הרבנים המתירים, ועוברים באיסור חמור של ביזוי תלמידי חכמים ועשיית מחלוקת.”June 6, 2023 9:53 am at 9:53 am #2196367
“I heard from some anashim peshutim from there that they had hard time adjusting to American kashrut.”
Nobody says that the cholov stam heter applies in Iraq; that’s why I used it as a non-controversial example. Your Iraqi friends simply didn’t keep kosher.
I was given this psak as well regarding shmitah i.e. that if I end up with heter mechira produce somehow, I’m not even allowed to pawn it off on someone who holds by the heter due to lifnei iver. I’m not noheg like this with cholov yisroel, but it would be totally understandable if someone were. I’m not sure why this is so hard for people to understand.June 6, 2023 10:13 am at 10:13 am #2196387
Neville- I definitely understand it. If you rule something is assur, then you can’t give it to someone else even if they think it’s mutar.
I’m just not sure I agree with it. Lifnei iveir is placing a stumbling block in front of a person… convincing them to do something they wouldn’t want to be doing or enabling them to do something they shouldn’t be doing.
For a stam yid, he has the right to follow his rav and posek. Whether the rav or posek will be held accountable if that psak is mistake is not for me to decide, but the stam yid who relies on a legitimate psak by a reliable posek (like R’ Moshe regarding chalav stam or the Rabbonim who allow Heter Mechira) is doing nothing wrong. He doesn’t need to follow your posek, he can and should follow his own posek. So how could it be considered a stumbling block to enable him to do something that he’s allowed to do? Nu, so your Rav says it’s prohibited… but lifnei iver seems to be about the target. It’s not about what’s permissible for you, it’s about what’s permissible for him. And your posek’s ruling isn’t kovea for all of Klal Yisroel.June 6, 2023 11:31 am at 11:31 am #2196416
R’ Melamed rules similarly when it comes to Masseh Shabbos. It wouldn’t be a problem of Maaseh Shabbos to benefit from someone doing something that you treat as prohibited, as long as they have a reliable psak that it’s permitted:
“כאשר מי שנוהג כשולחן ערוך או הרמ”א מתארח אצל תימני שנוהג כרמב”ם, מותר לו לאכול מן המרק שהוציא המארח מהמקרר וחיממו. שהואיל והמארח נהג כהלכה על פי מנהגו, מותר לכל יהודי לאכול לכתחילה מתבשילו (עי’ מ”ב שיח, ב).”
“האיסור ליהנות ממלאכה שנעשתה בשבת, הוא רק כשברור שהמעשה אסור, אבל אם נעשה דבר ששנוי במחלוקת, אף שלמעשה נוהגים להורות כדעה המחמירה, מכל מקום בדיעבד, מותר ליהנות מאותה המלאכה. וזאת משום שכל יסוד האיסור ליהנות ממלאכה שנעשתה בשבת הוא מדברי חכמים, ולכן כאשר יש מחלוקת אם המלאכה אסורה, הלכה כמיקל, שספק בדברי חכמים להקל (פמ”ג, מ”ב שיח, ב).June 6, 2023 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2196418
Here’s a similar question that was posted a number of years ago: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/relying-on-a-heter-of-someone-else
I actually asked my Rav about this question. He holds that a dishwasher cannot be kashered. He told me that as long as my friend has a psak from a reliable Rav, I don’t have to worry, and I can rely on the psak he received.June 6, 2023 11:40 am at 11:40 am #2196401
Simcha, eliezer melamed has disqualified himself from being a posek by believing that all a “ger” has to do to be jewish is be as observant as a traditional chiloni Israeli.
His words no longer belong on a torah forum.June 6, 2023 11:41 am at 11:41 am #2196436mentsch1Participant
this case happened to me
a neighbor who holds of the flatbush eiruv came needing lechem mishna
I invited them to eat with us but when they said no I politely refused to give them the bread
certainly to pick it up and hand it to them is assur for me (i made the akirah)
but i felt that aiding in anyway and allowing them to take it on their own was also assur
afterward i asked my LOR after and he agreed with meJune 6, 2023 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #2196480
Avira- I’ll let the mods decide which Rabbonim no longer belong on a Torah forum. It seems like they may disagree with you.June 6, 2023 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #2196820
“Simcha, eliezer melamed has disqualified himself from being a posek by believing that all a “ger” has to do to be jewish is be as observant as a traditional chiloni Israeli.”
Not saying we should hold like this today, but the gemara explicitly talks about gerim getting through the process and still having no knowledge of hilchos Shabbos. I would have to see the context of this guy’s teshuva to know if it’s really as controversial as you present it.
Don’t ask me to explain why, because I don’t know, but it seems like the accepted thing is for people to be meikel on dishes, but machmir on actual food-items in a case of machlokes.
I think we’re basically in agreement that we understand both sides of this.
Also, I don’t think the mods are in the game of deciding which rabbis are reputable, so I wouldn’t use that as a proof. I’m not siding with Avira, just saying I wouldn’t make the blanket assumption that the mods agree with all shittos/hashkafos that are allowed though.June 6, 2023 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2196842
Neville, kabalas hamitzvos is integral to gerus. Knowledge of them isn’t. Eliezer melamed said you could be megayer people who expressed that they have no plans to keep most of the mitzvos, or even believing in the Torah, save for maybe fasting on yom kippur, not eating chazir….like a masorti israeli.
The fact that anything besides torah can make someoke jewish and that his yardstick is a secular jewish state, shows how ingrained nationalism is in his mind, that the state dictates what a jew is! That is disqualifying. And feldheim stopped selling his books after he came out with thus psak.June 6, 2023 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #2196930
OK, I looked into it, and it definitely is problematic.
Nonetheless, Simcha was using him l’chumra. You’re saying his machmir stance of lifnei iver by heter mechira is invalid because he’s problematically meikel elsewhere? If anything, doesn’t it kind of drive the point home that someone who is all too willing to be carelessly meikel still concedes that the halacha is stringent in this type of case?June 6, 2023 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #2196943
Neville, perhaps that’s true, but it’s important to be mocheh when his rulings are mentioned, because he was previously known as a normative, rabbi Hershel shechter-esque figure. But he isn’t. He is one of the most dangerous rabbis in the world, with the ability to bring in goyim into klal yisroel, which could cast doubt on the entire next generation of non charedi Israelis.June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197595
I also lol. But still I think there is a point here. It doesn’t matter if they are lower on the scale. The question is here if it works. There is an area where MO seems to work. Individuals seek out better religious circumstances than they are given. We tend to justify it a bit first. My earlier question as to what goes on in yeshivshe and chassidishe circles when the peer pressure evaporates and nobody is looking, was ignored.
So you get to label who is Zionist and who is anti Zionist when that in itself is a metaphor for Authentic Jewishness? That is not admissible evidence. Just argue that (blank) group is too dismissive of Torah and Mitzvos to advocate it’s political or idealistic causes. You are not being any more specific in any case by calling them out as Zionists. (What does that even mean anymore?)June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197597
Rav Moshe’s opinion on chalav hacomapnies is clearly printed. It is muttar according to the law. (This is not a chidush if you know the sugya. The Chazon Ish agrees.) One is allowed to be machmer. If it comparably priced and not difficult to ascertain, one should be machmer. If one was makpid and the price went up, he must continue to be machmir.
Saying Rav Moshe had a kula here, is on par with saying that he allowed an Eruv In Brooklyn.
Yoshon was not kept for centuries in Europe. It is not clear why they didn’t, but such a precedent is not called a kulah. The same goes for birkas hamazon with a cup of wine. Today, some yeshivaliet want to be makpid on everything. They are completely mistaken about everything. One has to be really big and really know what they are doing to revive a practice that was dormant for centuries.
In the Yeshiva of old, even top lomdim were consistently being knocked off their high horses because there where real gaonim in almost every beis medrash. In such an atmosphere, one trembled at the mere thought of changing the minhag. Today, the cream of the crop run to their private offices to learn, and the masses of the yeshiva are left at the mercy of the lunatics who think they know everything without learning anything. In The Old Yeshivishe Velt chumros were well hidden. They were so modest about it, that their own families weren’t aware of what they were doing.June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197598
“If you hold something l’halachah, you can’t facilitate or benefit from other people transgressing it.”
This statement is only a hundred percent accurate with dozens of qualifiers.
That being said, MO hangs too much on saving money when it comes to many aspects of halacha. Why does it irk you that my matzoh and arba minnin cost me more than my car?June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197599
The Iraqi Jews that in your view ate trief would include the Iraqi Jews mentioned in the Gemara. A lot of the circumstances remained unchanged right up until 1948. For some reason, they didn’t reach out to the Yeshivos in Europe to update the Gemara for them. They didn’t really take to the Shulchan Aruch until the 1700s.June 7, 2023 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2197600
Most of our kashrus today is commercial. Getting hung up on what the symbols on the packaging says, doesn’t tell you if it’s a chumrah or kulah. [Example: Muchzak bli tolayim when there are aphids still on the leaves. The same is true for meat and dairy.]
There are kashrus standards for you own kitchen. In someone (That you would marry or learn Torah from.) else’s kitchen, you take on their standards. You have specific kulos for when you are in tight situations.
This is all routine. The real question is, do you eat by every public event without caring?June 7, 2023 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #2197655
Nom…when did i mention Iraqi jews?
The chazon ish is recorded in maaseh ish as saying that it’s a good taanah. He didn’t “agree,” with him in psak.
And to those who learn the sugya of anan sahadi, it fits, but it’s still a chidush. And rav moshe writes in many places that, for instance, yeshivos shouldn’t serve jt, because they are meant to teach ideals and keeping away from things which have even a slight doubt as to their kashrus. He also writes that it’s a bedieved in other places.
His sons held that he said it lechatchila – and kovodom bemolomlm omedes; they are totally entitled to that view, but the other talmidim of rav moshe, including more verabi rav Belsky, did not agree with that.June 7, 2023 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #2197676
Bemekomom omedes**June 7, 2023 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #2197756
“So you get to label who is Zionist and who is anti Zionist when that in itself is a metaphor for Authentic Jewishness?”
Did I do that here? I usually only bring Zionism into it when I’m purposely trying to derail a thread; it seems far to on point on this thread to be worth doing that here.
“Yoshon was not kept for centuries in Europe. It is not clear why they didn’t, but such a precedent is not called a kulah.”
Sure it is. The only reason to argue otherwise is if you’re insecure in your frumliness. I don’t keep yoshon. I rely on kulos and so does everyone else. And, by the way, when the Rema and Bach talk about possible heterim for chadash, they seem to be explicitly talking about them as kulos. They would be the last people to be offended by the use of that term.
You’re hung up the the idea that “kulah” is an insult. Adaraba, it takes a much greater posek to be able to find [legitimate] kulos than to find chumros. With this overly sensitive notion you guys are arguing for, nothing could ever be called a kulah under any circumstances.June 8, 2023 10:33 am at 10:33 am #2197815FollowMesorahParticipant
Can one open bottle caps for someone that does not on shabbos?June 8, 2023 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2197899
My mistake. Iraqi Jews was NCB replying to AAQ.
It’s in Sefer Chazon Ish.
The sugya isn’t anan sahadi. It is how to ascertain that food is prepared in a kosher manner. Rav Belsky had higher standards than Rav Moshe in general. Accordingly, it becomes a kulah. I’m sure you know that Rav Belsky was meticulous with his halachic approach. Your not quoting the Igros correctly. But even like you say, it doesn’t help your argument. Rav Moshe is very clear that it is muttar without any kula.
I don’t understand how this can be a machlokes what Rav Moshe himself held. He had chalav hacompanies in his house. There are many living witnesses to this.June 8, 2023 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2197901
Someone else did to me. I responded. He ran away as always. And you chimed in. 😉
“It takes a much greater posek..”
Agreed. I’m not personally invested here. If kula means something that we should be hesitant about, then I strongly disagree. If it only means that we should be careful not to take it further, I can’t argue too much.
But once the Rema and the Bach wrote that and the following generations allowed it to stand, it is obvious that this was the standard. Compare with raisin wine that was continually being revisited and challenged.June 8, 2023 10:36 am at 10:36 am #2197902
I wasn’t offended by the term. I’m only vaguely aware of the context in the larger discussion.
Chalav hacompanies is not a kula at all. It just happens to be that there is another (possibly better) option.
Chodosh is a kula in some sense. But I think the term should not be applied when there is so much precedent.June 8, 2023 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #2197917
EEEE: when I was in Darchei Torah, we once had a Shabbos seudah with R’ Reisman, from the Agudah of Long Island. There was a bottle of soda on the table that was sealed, and a few boys started arguing that nobody should open it, because some held that it’s assur. R’ Reisman heard them, said “Pass me the bottle, please!” and opened it. He then passed it back, and told them to enjoy it.June 8, 2023 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #2197919
n0mesorah, there are many who claim that R’ Moshe once drank chalav hacompanies and when he realized, he vomited it up.
A friend of mine who was a student of R’ Dovid Feinstein zt”l once asked him if this story was true or not. R’ Dovid laughed, and said, “If my father ever threw up the milk, it’s because it was spoiled. He never threw up just because it wasn’t chalav Yisrael!”June 8, 2023 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2197921
It wasn’t rav belsky’s shitah himself; I asked him what rav moshe held, and he said that rav moshe held that cholov stam was bedieved. He also said that the story about rav moshe throwing up upon hearing that he accidentally drank cholov stam milk is true.
As to why he had it in his house – thats true, because he was not machmir on his children. Thats why his sons were maikil themselves(rav dovid was, and yblch”t rav reuvain only started being machmir on himself like 10 years ago)
But he does write that yeshivos should not serve it. Very clearly.
There are also teshuvos which indicate that it’s a bedieved, but they’re in chelek 8.
the chazon ish that you quoted says nothing about relying on company regulations. what he says is that, by cheese, you might be able to count the minhag of goyim in a certain medina using plants to make cheese as a tziruf to allow the cheese if the yid sees the goy make the cheese, because in that situation, there’s no Lo Plug in the gezerah of gevinas akum – BUT he only says it as a “din nosen” and ends with a “tzarich iyun” at the end, so he is not paskening lemaysoh.June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2197968
Aveirah, you should read about R’ Belsky’s heter for chalav stam, which actually removes one of the issues that some had with R’ Moshe’s heter.
Mods, is a link to the OU’s site allowed? https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/rav-moshe-ztls-heter-of-cholov-stam-revisited/June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2197990
I heard directly from Rav Reuven Shlit”a, that he does not believe that story.June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2197996
This is the sugya. The Chassam Sofer used the Rashi from cheese for milk. The Chazon Ish is completely rejecting the comparison. Same as Rav Moshe. If you go through the nuance, he is even more lenient in theory. There wasn’t a reason for the Chazon Ish to pasken. He was never in a country that had applicable standards for the milking process. And the heter of the government had already been in use for decades. The heterim of the Pri Chodosh had already been relied upon in parts of Europe.June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2197999
There is a lot of space between ‘bedieved’ and ‘not machmir on his children’. I don’t understand how you use them to mean the same thing.
Let’s pretend you got the part about yeshivos correct. How does that help your stance. It’s still kosher lechatchillah like Rav Moshe wrote at length in Volume 1.June 8, 2023 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #2198014
“Chodosh is a kula in some sense. But I think the term should not be applied when there is so much precedent.”
My point is that it does not matter how many people rely on something; it’s still a kulah. Chodosh is the best example because the overwhelming majority do rely on it, nonetheless it’s a leniency. The stam halacha is that chodosh is assur m’doraisa.
“Chalav hacompanies is not a kula at all. It just happens to be that there is another (possibly better) option.”
Absolute nonsense. For thousands the years, the halachah was you could only drink Cholov Yisroel. There now exists a heter not to in a way that’s still mutar, but that is 100%, definitively, unequivocally a kulah. Nobody is challenging the validity. Just stop moving the goalposts because your too insecure to admit that you rely on kulos every now and then.June 8, 2023 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #2198029
What is stam halacha decided by other than precedent?
And your incorrect about what chalav yisroel meant throughout history. There were many different ways of going about it. The Gemara wasn’t invented in Europe. I’m not moving the goalposts. Your kicking the ball through endless fields thinking that there has to be a goal at the end of the next one.
My apologies that learning the real sugya doesn’t conform to your preconceived notions of halacha.June 8, 2023 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2198031
Nom, asserting that fear of govt companies is a mirsas is still a chiddush that the chazon ish does not address, but now i get what you were trying to say… it’s still not clear, and the chazon ish ended with a tz”a.
As for bedieved – it wasn’t easy to get cholov stam in the 1950s when rav moshes children were growing up. That’s a bedieved situation. But even in that case, he personally did not drink it and je said rhat they should not serve it in yeshivos.
Even in the 80s it wasn’t as easy as it is now for most frum people to get cholov yisroel.
As it were, if i lived in a place where it was hard to get cholov yisroel, i would rely on the heter myself.June 8, 2023 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #2198048
Rav belsky didn’t deny the existence of rav moshes heter; he told me openly, in clear language, that lechatchila one should not rely on it.June 8, 2023 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #2198054
Does bedieved mean that it’s lacking in halachic standing, or that there are possibly better options?
I’m using the first definition. What did Rav Belsky mean?June 8, 2023 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #2198085
“What is stam halacha decided by other than precedent?”
In the case of Chodosh, an explicit pasuk. In the case of cholov yisroal, a gezeiras chazal. Was this even a serious question?
“And your incorrect about what chalav yisroel meant throughout history. There were many different ways of going about it. The Gemara wasn’t invented in Europe.”
I literally have no idea what you even mean by this. Are you actually trying to suggest that people outside of Europe had cholov akum and ignored the issur? Cholov yisroel is not an Ashkenazi minhag; it’s a halacha. If you’re talking about the heter of the Pri Chadash, then fine, but I’m just going to call that a kulah as well because that’s what it is.June 8, 2023 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2198094
An explicit pasuk! what does that mean? Which tanna did not read the pasuk? The Mordechai didn’t have the pasuk in his Sefer Torah?June 8, 2023 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #2198095
Well there is a discussion what kind of gezaira there was. The people outside of Europe who actually had access to chalav temayah did not have the same approach. I would also call the Pri Chadash a kula. As well as relying on a katan. Have you ever watched your own milk? It’s really simple.June 8, 2023 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #2198113
Nom, a bedieved is both – it’s not optimal, because it’s shaky in halacha.June 8, 2023 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #2198142
“An explicit pasuk! what does that mean?”
Again, is this a real question? Do you really need me to cite it for you?
“The people outside of Europe who actually had access to chalav temayah did not have the same approach.”
Elaborate. If you’re claiming that people outside Europe ate cholov akum then just say so.
As much as I want to keep fighting due to my masculine rage, let me offer this up:
-You define the kulah, stam halacha, chumra spectrum statistically: what most people do is the stam halacha, the meikel minority is the kulah, and the meikel minority is the chumrah.
-I define it historically/chronologically: Whatever halachah came earlier is the stam halachah. If we go below that now, it’s a kulah, above is a chumrah.
I don’t actually have that much of a problem with your approach; I’m just kind of arguing because I’m bored. Do you really have that much of a problem with my approach, or should we just call it?June 8, 2023 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #2198163
We can wrap up this topic.
What if it isn’t both? Here it is only the second. Because Rav Moshe is explicit that it is not lacking in halachic standing.June 9, 2023 12:37 am at 12:37 am #2198206Avi KParticipant
Avura, according to Ramban, conquering EY is a Torah mitzva. Rambam. Even according to those who only look at security, we cannot give up land. Look at what happened when we gave up Gush Katif. Obviously, war overrides pikuach nefesh of individuals.
So far as the O.P.’s question is concerned, there are a number of rabbis who alternated between the Mir and YU. I would imagine that the same is true of other Lithuanian yeshivot. Orthodoxy is represented by, to borrow a mathematical term, a continuous distribution, not a discreet distribution.June 9, 2023 9:40 am at 9:40 am #2198268
How does a pasuk tell us stam halacha? Especially according to your take that it is whatever came earlier, than your indicating that Torah Shebksav is the first Law, and Torah Shebaal peh is after. Which is untrue and heretical.June 9, 2023 9:42 am at 9:42 am #2198276
Outside of Europe the focus was on what the milk actually was. It’s hard to know what was the Rishonim’s practical criteria. The Chasam Sofer is the first mekor that Chalev Yisroel is about actually seeing the milk. It’s not like meat that needs someone qualified throughout the process.
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