BT vs FFB

How could anyone say BT’s have it easier?

Who has it easier, a “Baal tshuva” or a “frum from birth”?

What is “it”?

Jakob, it is not advisable to “squash it all” into one year especially if he is coming from zero (many BTs actually come from traditional homes of varying degrees). It is too fast a change and he may leave as quickly as he entered.

ZD, if there is good will on the mother’s side and a rav who knows all the lenient opinions and is willing to use them in the right situations it can be worked out.

Avi K

That was a simple one, I know of even a worse one, I know of a BT whose brother was getting married to a Non-Jew. her mother told her to attend the wedding (And be a part of the Wedding party) or else she would be cut off (This person needed her mothers help alot financially so this was not an idle threat, it was serious), Her mother never really liked her religious choices or the husband she married, so it was not something she could easily dismiss especially since she really needed the financial help

If we are talking about a BT whose parents or family are hostile to religion, then obviously that is a challenge. For example, as mentioned by zahavasdad, not being able to eat what your parents cooked, or being asked to do things on Shabbos that are forbidden, or being asked to attend an intermarriage r”l. Abandoning your whole way of life is obviously something that is not easy.

On the other hand, FFBs could sort of take things for granted and may lack a certain degree of excitement that comes with doing something new. For example, repeating the same prayers 3 times a day your whole life – whereas for a BT, at least initially, davening is something new and exciting.

Iaskern; Maybe because in the Gemara it’s a machlokes and since it’s not halacha lemaaseh we don’t pasken one way or the other even though we usually just hear one of the shitahs quoted.

Avi K,

Have you ever received any help from your parents or others? If so, then get off your haughty perch. Nothing in zahavasdad’s story indicates that the husband and wife are not working. Financial independence is important, but nobody starts out financially independent, and you cannot simply flip a switch to get it. It takes hard work and time.

I am an FFB. When I was in Yeshiva way-back-when there were many BTs. Many of the BTs were friends of mine and really enjoyable to be around, however I don’t think I 100% understand all of their ways. I coined the term “more religious than thou”. Many shidduch offerings were not ‘religious enough’ for them, but were somehow suitable for other FFB yeshivish guys who became engaged. Disposing ALL of their colored dress shirts (I didn’t need to go shopping those years). Not wanting to EVER return back to their non-religious home, although they said their parents were respectful and accommodating- dismissing the option of purchasing their own frozen meals and walking to their nearby Chabad on Shabbos. —- Sadly 10 years later, (according to social media) many of these men are no longer religious at all as the pictures reveal bar pictures on Friday nights, no yarmulka, way of dress, type of men/women they hung out with, treif restaurants, etc.

Concluding, life can be very hard for a BT if they don’t maintain reasonable accommodations for themselves and appropriate goals & expectations, as I’ve seen it becomes an “All or nothing” 5-10 years later. No one is going to become the Chofetz Chaim overnight, regardless if one is a BT or FFB. Better to wear the blue dress shirts on Tuesday than to expect to know all of Shas by the summer. Thus, I believe FFB has IT easier than a BT.

Lask: Why are we relitigating the gemora, Berochos 34,2, who is greater?

I am under the impression that the argument put forth in the Gemara was between 2 Tzaddikim–1 who was FFB and 1 who was BT. In the case of the two Tzaddikim, the BT stands in a place the FFB cannot.

The current discussion is clearly not referring to Tzaddikim but merely to the overall quality of life of the individual. At least that’s my judgment.

If I am mistaken about the Gemara, please correct me–I view you as a teacher.

EY, Sorry I think you are making a mistake Rabbi Avihu was very great in his own right no indication that he was a BT.

First of all many FFB’S deal with BT problems. My parents are BT and so I deal with things with my cousins, grandparents, uncles and aunts. My children will also have these issues, so do people who do kiruv, so do anyone that makes friends with a BT can secondhandedly issue with things like how to explain things.

In addition anyone who has a neighbor or friend who is on another plane of yiddishkeit may also deal with the same things. If your co-workers are sefardi and get upset when you can’t eat their food, or a neighbor decides to marry someone of the same gender…etc.

BT’s do NOT have a monopoly on these different situations.

Also many FFB’s grow up living a frum lifestyle and not a frum life, it’s all external.
I don’t really think any of us have this life thing any easier.
On some level, if you really think about it, it’s easy to be frum. If you act a certain way, talk a certain way, wear certain clothes and pretend to be a part of this world you gain friends, community, a spouse that is loyal, a family and so much more.

Sure, no one is promising you all of these things, but in the secular world people have no morals and backstab each other left and right, cheat on their spouses, and much worse. Yes these issues have come to frum society to a degree, but it is all against the Torah and we all know that, we all know of this rule book, and it’s rules, and these issues are MUCH LESS rampant than in the rest of society.

No one has it easy.
Life isn’t supposed to be easy anyway.

TGIShabbos,

“Many shidduch offerings were not ‘religious enough’ for them, but were somehow suitable for other FFB yeshivish guys who became engaged. Disposing ALL of their colored dress shirts (I didn’t need to go shopping those years). Not wanting to EVER return back to their non-religious home, although they said their parents were respectful and accommodating- “

It’s possible that these behaviors were expressions of religious fervor, but more likely they came from a place of immaturity. Turning down shidduchim could indicate a fear of commitment, for example, and the rejection of their parents despite accommodation could have simply been teenage rebelliousness. Building a healthy frum lifestyle requires a solid foundation: faith in Hashem and recognition of the Torah as truth, a clear plan for spiritual and religious growth, and a rabbi as a mentor and posek.

Avram in MD, that’s an interesting perspective I’ve never thought of. I’ve bugged my wife for a while with my question over why many BTs try to shoot up to an unreasonable point, then many fall to eating a cheeseburger in a bar on a Friday night 7 years later. Immaturity and timing very well might be part of the “bad” formula why this occurs more often than we all think. Immaturity without the added support of frum parents/siblings makes it all the more so challenging and lonely.

A pet peeve of mine was all the vast amount of sefarim these bochurim bought and kept by their “makom” in the Beis Medrash. I always thought that 5 or 6 sidurim were a little extreme (and we aren’t even including machzorim for the yomim tovim). Better to have 1 solid siddur and use it today and in 10 years, than 6 sidurim and using 0 later one.

{I don’t mean to generalize all BTs, as many are frum and wonderful for many years to come}

Shopping, what does “co-workers who claim to keep kashrut, you have no idea to what degree, how well they keep things seperate or what hechshers they use” have to do with being Sephardi? As for hechshers, if it is an Orthodox hechsher not relying on it is only a chumra. There is an opinion, in fact, that someone who does not rely on Chazal’s heterim (e.g. ed echad ne’eman b’issurim) is a heretic as he disagrees with Chazal (Pitchei Teshuva YD 116:10 in the name of Sulam l’Mincha Klal 76 DIn 8).

Mrs. Plony,

I need to get this off my chest: People who do kiruv, formally or informally, have a responsibility to promote independence of BT’s. If you have your little coterie of people whom you’ve ‘made frum’, but you keep them under your exclusive influence then you’re doing them a real disservice. Let them see how other observant people manage a Shabbos table or Pesach Seder; let them try a different shul or a different community.

If you claim that you’re ‘just like family’ for ‘your’ BT’s, then you should be committed to caring for them (and their descendants) in perpetuity – not just that you’ll get all the honor and glamour of walking them to the chuppah and being invited to siyums, etc., but be ready to support them (financially, not just emotionally) if their families reject them or if they have other emergencies.

What do the 2 things have to do with each other?

The woman went to the Wedding. The mother is no longer living but she did get some sort of inheritance. She has some sort of relationship with her brother and (Non-Jewish Nieces and Nephews (I dont know exactly what they are, She has no children of her own)) She needs the relationship with her brother , probably more than the brother needs her

I think it’s ridiculous to say that if someone is mekarev someone, they then have to support them financially.

I have actually seen quite a few people advocate this, which of course is nonsense, but there is a valid point there , if you are going to makerev someone you need to be aware of damages you might cause in their life, Not all BT stories have happy endings and make them aware of these damages and see if they are willing to accept them

I think it’s ridiculous to say that if someone is mekarev someone, they then have to support them financially.

I think the point was that you have to provide the person with the tools needed to finish the job without your assistance, unless you’re planning on being a permanent mentor.

An analogy would be teaching someone to drive a car, but omitting some details, such as how to turn on the headlights when it gets dark, or how to make left turns.

On the other hand, BTs find that the z’chus of teshuva gets amortized over the years, so eventually they feel very much like a stam Yid. They may still have a strong sense of bechira, but it’s very hard to transmit it to their children.

I’ve read that paragraph several times, but can’t quite figure out what it means.

@Avi K. Sephardi have different minhagim and I am advised not to eat certain things from them.
In Israel I’m talking about people who ae Dati Leumi or Mizrachi, or people who look yeshivish, that you don’t know enough to know what is going on in their kitchen. For example if a Dati Leumi co-worker brings in something she made, I don’t know if she only uses Mehadrin, many people here use rabbanut. Should I sit with her and go through a list of the hescherim she eats?

Especially when it comes to Pesach many rabbanim pasken that rabbanut food is 100 percent chometz and cannot be used. It’s problematic.

Screwdriver Delight, sometimes people do kiruv because they want to control ‘their’ BT’s. If you honestly want more Jews to keep the mitzvos and live a Torah lifestyle, then it shouldn’t be about you; therefore BT’s should be encouraged to build a network of their own, and not ‘belong’ to one particular kiruv family.

Daas Yochid, my point is that if a kiruv-er promises a potential BT “Oh, don’t worry, if your family can’t accept your new lifestyle, then we’ll be your family”, then that’s a HUGE responsibility. The kiruv-er might only be thinking of the emotional factor, but real family goes beyond that.

ZD, that’s sad, but thank you for sharing the rest of the story.

DovidBT, thanks for the analogy.

The Jews who came to America before WWII had a far far higher OTD rate than the Jews who remained in Europe.

Avi, Germany was the worst place ruchniyos-wise in Europe for Jews. But despite all the points you mentioned, prewar America was much worse than virtually any place in Europe. For a frum European Jew to move to America before WWII, there was an undeniably large risk that they — or more likely their children and/or grandchildren –would r”l become OTD; much more likely than in Europe.

@Me12345, in Judiasm you don’t get to pick areas to be lenient on.