BTL degrees

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    Do people know of yeshivas that give BTLs.


    Yes, when I was in yeshiva during the summer we had a BBQ and we were serve BLT [burgers not bacon]


    Ner Israel in Baltimore gives a highly regarded BTL and has good relationships with many local Baltimore universities.


    Is there a difference in BTL ‘s? Credits are transferred from mir, chaim Berlin, all the same. Law schools accept it instead of a bachelor’s too. You can also work for title 1 with it.

    Ray Kaufman

    Avira, an undergraduate degree was never officially required for entrance to Law School. It may be considered for admission but a High School dropout could get in if he (or she) aces the LSAT.


    Sounds like a scam.


    Does anyone know of a yeshiva that will give a btl based on learning done in a yeshiva without the very expensive aarts accreditation?


    @Ray Kaufman

    You are decades behind in your info/facts.
    Law schools did not require a Bachelor’s Degree for entry, as before 1962, The Standard law degree issued by American law schools was an LLB (Bachelor of Law).

    The horde of JFK appointed Harvard Law grads appointed to Federal positions complained that the Civil Service would only pay them for a Bachelor Degree education. JFK imposed on Harvard to switch to a J.D. (Juris Doctor/Doctor of Law) so their graduates would be paid at the highest government rate. The entire American Law School community followed suit.

    I had a number of Professors in Law School and came up against lawyers in practice that had LLBs issued in the 1940s and 50s.

    In NY, it was possible to still take the Bar Exam without attending Law School, having read the law and apprenticing for X years in a law firm. That is what FDR did in the 19teens. I had a paralegal in our NYC office in the early 1980s follow that route. I then hired her as an associate.
    Law degree Trivia;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
    Law is the only discipline in America where a Masters Degree outranks a Doctoral degree.

    Dating back to the LLB, mentioned above, post graduate work in Law earns an LLM.
    I earned an LLM in Estate Law after holding a JD


    Without AARTS the degree isn’t recognized as an undergraduate degree.


    I guess, this works for law schools, but what about other jobs? It should be possible to count accredited yeshiva classes for humanities/cultural/electives and then have ~ 2 years of professional training at a local or online university. Anyone has experience with that?


    I attend a real college, I used my yeshiva credit to become transfer student and had all electives waived and I needed only 30 credits to graduate with my bachelors degree


    I believe Chofetz Chaim in Queens does.


    ok, now your “common saychel” status confirmed. And I presumed your college was in-town, you did not move to a fancy campus.


    Speaking about this, colleges evaluate transfer classes. What yeshivos and seminaries have good record of providing class descriptions for transfer and maybe already provided them to some popular off- and on- line colleges?


    I don’t know what you plan to do with the BTL but as a law student, I would recommend getting a regular bachelors from touro or something. Although the BTL will be accepted for school, it’s not great on a resume for employers.

    Reb Eliezer

    CS, what was your major?


    > BTL will be accepted for school, it’s not great on a resume for employers

    Would BS degree matter when you have a higher degree? Maybe law firms are picky, but in my areas it does not matter.


    Without AARTS the degree isn’t recognized as an undergraduate degree.

    That is why I asked if there were any accredited yeshivos that would offer a BTL on the basis of recognizing learning done in a yeshiva without accreditation. Maybe through equivalent tests or some other means of evaluation


    @AAQ yes it was in town

    E Safety Engineering with focus on occupational safety


    “Ner Israel in Baltimore gives a highly regarded BTL ”

    I don;t know what “highly regarded BTL ” means

    It is a BTL, it is accepted. Nobody in Graduate school, nor any employer looks at NIRC BTL and says “Wow that is very impressive”
    sure if you do well on LSAT, MCAT or otherwise have a good resume, they will overlook the BTL, but to say it is “highly regarded” is a stretch

    (full disclosure I have a BTL from NIRC)


    > Without AARTS the degree isn’t recognized as an undergraduate degree.

    Many colleges will do transfer from other institution. I think this does not require accreditation, just a solid syllabus of the class.



    That doesn’t make it a BTL that just means another University counts it as credit to graduate for that one. Having a transcript does not = degree. The call of the question is BTL(bachelor of talmudic law). A few yeshivas have that degree but most don’t. Brooklyn College Queens College or Touro e.g. will count credits from a yeshiva and will get you to a degree in their college, but that means that you graduated with a different degree not a BTL.


    1, right. I am not against BTLs, just wondering what is the use, other than law school?

    I am also interested in applying yeshiva/seminary credits to other colleges for those who are not in commuting distance from heilicke Brooklyn. Many people ponder sending to a local college v. YU or Touro. this does sound more like a question for ani-ima site, although halakha makes fathers responsible for teaching kids Torah and professions, not mothers.

    [email protected]

    Keep in mind that NY Yeshiva’s give first Talmudic degrees, most other yeshivas give bachelor of Talmudic studies which actually is higher then a bachelors of Talmudic law ( which Ner yisroel & a few other schools give).
    At the end of the day you probably need an aarts accreditation to get any degree. It doesn’t make a difference the name of degree, it is considered more or less the same to the outside world. If you do well on your lsats then can probably get into law school with those degrees. The other option is to use your credits & go through these different Jewish programs or do it on your own. None of them are considered top notch but if you do really well on lsat you can get into a good law school and if have good gpa in law school and do a good internship then will make resume look good. Good luck!


    @Iamhappy, first of all welcome to the CR,

    Having worked most of my life in coperate america, I can tell you a BTL is worth almost nothing, to be taken as a serious candidate you need a BA/BS from a real school not Belluve College, Thomas Edison etc.

    Second, the BTL and a great LSAT score will only open doors in a lower or mid range school like NY or Brooklyn Law, Hofstra, Pace etc, it wont open doors to any ivy league places

    Third, the good intership are very hard to come by, unless your ethnic is unrepresented in the firm good luck in landing one.

    Fourth, other then bypassing the Law Schools requirement of a BA or for use in the special needs population mid level staffing, I dont know what useful purpose it serves.

    [email protected]

    I respectfully disagree and I know many people who have degrees from yeshiva and have gone very far in corporate America whether in law, accounting or finance.
    I do know people who got into Ivy League schools with these degrees. I also know people who gotten into the B schools and in a way they got better offers cuz they were top in those law or graduate schools as opposed to being in the middle or bottom of Harvard or Yale. If people have either religious, monetary or time restraints and decide to go through the yeshiva degree it might be harder then if you go through a regular college but it is definitely doable if you work hard.


    Iamhappy> I do know people who got into Ivy League schools with these degrees

    Me too. Based on what common is saying, maybe they had some additional leg up? Super high LSAT? Internships that their parents helped to find? Sympathetic professors aware of those yeshivos?

    > I also know people who gotten into the B schools and in a way they got better offers cuz they were top in those law or graduate schools as opposed to being in the middle or bottom of Harvard or Yale.

    This is confusing, could you explain? Are you saying, a good rank at the yeshiva helped (do yeshiva even give ranks to grad schools?!) Or do you mean job offers after being top in grad school? Agree on this, your undergrad does not matter after your grad school.


    @imamhappy, the main differnce is that I am there now, not talking about third hand info, It was my college degree from a major school [that i got with 30 cedits] that opened up the first few doors for me


    common, you are talking different centuries. People looked way closer at your time. Nowadays, there are now 2-3 times more people attending college. Observant people from Jewish schools work in many places already and either are a testimony or a facilitator for the younger ones.

    My experience is similar to yours: I was a butt of (friendly) jokes in my first post-grad workplace – I was the first hire whose PhD was not from top three schools in the industry. Now, that firm routinely hires PhDs from my school, not sure whether I started the trend or, more likely, they lowered the standards. As for me, that was the only time when the school was looked at.


    I think the the employer have relaxed the standards somewhat, but to get somewhere you need a genuine BA/BS for the most part, these days fairly easy to obtain with remote learning and all.


    iamhappy while it’s possible to get into corporate America with a btl the likelihood that you’ll get an interview let alone the job without connections snd prior relevant work experience is not high. It is possible to get into a good firm with a btl, if you happen to want to go into law.

    Reb Eliezer

    AAQ, PhD in what?


    AAQ FDU and Post take some yeshiva credits for an accelerated degree.


    @lakewat, CCNY, SUNY, Fordham, Pace will all take Yeshiva credits, most will require you to take a basic math and english test before allowing a transfer


    “Would BS degree matter when you have a higher degree? Maybe law firms are picky, but in my areas it does not matter.”
    You may not be aware how much it matters.
    The old boy network still exists in many fields.
    You may be a top PHd from Ohio State, but that Yale or Harvard tie may mean a lot when you arrive for an interview. Showing up at the Yale or Harvard Club in Manhattan for drinks and networking works wonders.
    I went to UPENN undergrad, Wharton and then law school in Mass.
    My Penn connections have been very valuable in the climb through my profession.
    My children and their spouses all have IVY undergrad educations, not all have IVY law degrees.
    Every year or so I hire new associates who have graduated UCONN and Quinnipiac Law schools. If I see that IVY BS on their resume it does raise their chances. Since I don’t hire anyone who has NOT already passed the Bar Exam (the great equalizer) the law school name is not that important to me.
    Students learn law in law school, they learn to be and function as a lawyer in the working world.

    Eldest brother is an electrical engineer with his own firm. He also gave mental points to applicants who attended his IVY alma mater. He would send feelers out at his university club when looking for new hires.


    common for SUNY or CUNY if you don’t have the prerequisite math and sciences from a regents or SAT then you will be limited to their community colleges first and have to do the math there and then you can transfer to the 4 year school of your choice. I already mentioned Brooklyn College and Touro before so didn’t feel the need to specifically mention CUNY but yes it’s the same standard as any CUNY. CCNY is another CUNY school.


    RebE, in some sort of engineering. Math and machine learning work the same for bridges and airplanes.. ctlawyer, right how do you know someone went to Harvard? It’s the first thing they tell you. Most research shows the value of ivy etc is in signaling to the employer that this person probably had high sat score. Instead of direct test that would often be illegal.

    Is it worth going there? I would say either if you are poor enough to qualify for aid; plan to be a workaholic so that all these connections matter; and you live at home or with a group of observant students, and have enough of political maturity not to be swept by ideology that is strongest at best places. Everyone else should be at YU, Touro, strong local college or strong online college. In no particular order. Clep mills are other extreme to avoid, you are trying to get an education not just a line on the resume

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