Calling 311 on someone blocking your driveway is mesira

Home Coffeeroom Inspiration / Mussar Calling 311 on someone blocking your driveway is mesira

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  • #1616276

    Joseph
    Participant

    Calling the police/ticket maids on someone blocking your driveway is mesira.

    If you wish to argue against this point, bring halachic arguments only. Not personal feelings or boich svaras.

    The Halacha on mesira makes no exception permitting this type of mesira.

    #1616413

    shuali
    Participant

    First of all thank you for raising the question. This has come up a few times (“just running in for minchah (or for ‘krias ha’ Megillah’ or for a bottle of milk, a cream cheese sandwich, or a cup of coffee)”). Thank you also for requesting clear sources and no personal opinions.
    I don’t know if the following is a good comparison, but want to out it out there. A frum traffic officer, whom I know personally, asked Rav Dovid Feinstein if it was permissible to write a parking ticket for someone you know is a Yid? He was told absolutely. I am quite sure he was told explicitly it was not considered mesirah. Perhaps calling the cops down is different than if the officer is there already. Perhaps, on the other hand, the mesira is the ticket.
    Be that as it may, the question is an important one. If someone has clearer sources, please post as it is very relevant in Brooklyn.

    #1616423

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    If you see this happening, you can assume it’s not a Jew.

    #1616424

    whitecar
    Participant

    I know Rabbi Shay Tahan says yes

    #1616436

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Awwww Joe,

    We’re you blocking someone’s driveway and they called the cops on you and you got a ticket?

    If it was the opposite and your driveway was blocked what would you do? Ram his car or miss where you have to go?

    #1616481

    1
    Participant

    What if that honest Jew illegally made his driveway wider to fit his obnoxious SUV?

    #1616478

    adocs
    Participant

    Joseph,

    How about we do this the other way?
    Why don’t YOU name an English speaking posek that anyone reading this can contact for themselves, who holds that calling 311 in this situation is considered mesira.

    #1616489

    Milhouse
    Participant

    People should learn hilchos mesirah in Shulchon Oruch before commenting; this is not something determined by feelings, but an actual halocho subject, just like hilchos shabbos.

    If someone is causing you harm, e.g. by blocking your driveway, and you have made a reasonable attempt to get them to stop doing it and failed, you are permitted to call the cops, <i>so long</i> as your intention is not to have them punished but merely to have them stop the harm, e.g. by moving their car. So if 311 is going to send a tow truck you may call them, even though you know the person will also get a ticket. But if your <i>intention</i> is for them to get the ticket then it is mesirah and not permitted.

    #1616496

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Is “blocking your driveway” meant to be interpreted literally, or is it a metaphor?

    #1616494

    on the ball
    Participant

    I have seen in the name of Rav Waldenberg Zt’l ad Rav Wosner Zt’l that mesira does not apply when the government acts legitimately

    #1616500

    Imma613
    Participant

    How about we turn this around even more: Fine one posek who permits blocking someone’s driveway!!

    #1616510

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I see your ante, and i’ll raise you by 500 troll points:
    Calling the police/ticket maids on someone sleeping in your bed is mesira.

    If you wish to argue against this point, bring halachic arguments only. Not personal feelings or boich svaras.

    The Halacha on mesira makes no exception permitting this type of mesira.

    #1616502

    takahmamash
    Participant

    When we lived in Baltimore and I was a watch commander with the NWCP, the officer riding with us would ticket every car parked that was blocking a driveway during evening minyan hours. What a chillul Hashem these drivers caused because they had to run to catch a minyan. If you’re that late, catch a different minyan!

    #1616516

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A while back, I called the cops because someone’s car alarm was going off at 3:00 am and would not turn off.

    Silly me… I should have called a Bais Din.

    Since this makes me a moser, and hence, eligible for the death penalty, please someone let me know when and where to show up for my execution.

    The Wolf

    #1616532

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Joseph ,
    Is one permitted to call 311 on someone who purposely misquotes and perverts halacha (such as yourself) ?

    #1616533

    eman
    Participant

    This is not about calling 311 but about blocking others with your car. A over 30 of years ago I got called out of davening because Hatzoloh was at my hous treating a child who was injured. I couldn’t leave till the person blocking my car came and moved his car. The child had to wait at the hospital because the person who accompanied the child was his 16 old brother who was not authorized to give consent.
    2 weeks prior to this child’s bar mitzvah,the same person blocked my car, so I told him that he has a chance in 2 weeks to ask mechilah from the child. He laughed at me. Life goes on and not 1 of his daughters found a shidduch. This man left this world in his 80’s without a grandchild.

    #1616539

    adocs
    Participant

    @ubiquitin

    😂

    #1616541

    shimen
    Participant

    its dine memonos…you cant call a bes din court to remove …how else will one get out of driveway

    #1616543

    shimen
    Participant

    If someone brakes your window and doesnt want to pa;y, is it mesira if i take him to court, lets say he doesnt want to go to bes din and you have heter? same here theres no shyach to go to bes din this case

    #1616544

    Joseph
    Participant

    Milhouse: If a certain city had a law that they would jail for three years a driveway blocker (along with towing his car), you will still stand by your comment above as to when it is permitted to call the cops?

    Secondly, please define “you have made a reasonable attempt to get them to stop doing it” as it pertains to this question. Namely, a first time offender who is blocking your driveway and you don’t know where to find him now.

    #1616586

    adocs
    Participant

    Wolf,

    Don’t be silly. You’re only chayev misa if you knew the alarm owner was a jew. I’m assuming you knew otherwise. If, on the other hand, you knew it was a jew and you called the cops anyway, then you’re out of luck. )-:

    #1616643

    adocs
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Your response to Milhouse is a strawman comment. You are concocting a ridiculous scenario of someone going to jail for blocking a driveway when we all know that is pretty much an impossibility. Blocking a driveway will result in a fine and possibly the inconvenience of being towed and resulting tow charges.

    Still waiting for the name of a Posek who says that calling 311 for blocking a driveway is considered mesira.

    #1616665

    Joseph
    Participant

    adocs: That is not an impossibility, but if it makes you feel any better replace the prospect of imprisonment with a penalty of $35,000 for blocking a driveway, for a first time offense, in addition to towing. Does such penalty in this circumstance preclude mesira?

    #1616726

    adocs
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Your response to me is a strawman comment. You are concocting a ridiculous scenario of someone being fined $35,000 for blocking a driveway when we all know that is pretty much an impossibility. Blocking a driveway will result in a fine ($95 in NYC) and possibly the inconvenience of being towed and resulting tow charges.

    Still waiting for the name of a Posek who says that calling 311 for blocking a driveway is considered mesira.

    #1616746

    puttinginmy2cents
    Participant

    It is unfortunate that people think that their being late for a minyan or, when out shopping, and they can’t find a parking spot, that they are allowed to inconvience someone else by blocking their driveway. Their davening is worthless because they ‘stole time’ (gezel z’man), which can’t be repaid. Several years ago, I actually found a car parked IN my driveway and I couldn’t leave for work. After spending some time knocking on doors, and therefore being late for work, I found the owners of the car. They were ‘frum’ Israelis visiting someone and didn’t understand that what they did was wrong.
    I have also witnessed (‘frum’) people blocking driveways that had cars in them. One driveway had a car that anyone could plainly see was a Hatzoloh car, but they blocked the driveway, anyway.
    Don’t even get me started on the people running to catch their minyan and putting the neighborhood in sakanah by parking at a fire hydrant.

    #1616743

    StuartW
    Participant

    I can’t take this stupidity any longer. Jail or 35000.00? Gimme a break.

    #1616752

    Joseph
    Participant

    adocs: Which is why I addressed my initial response only to Milhouse, since he’s the only commenter who I found to make substantiative points on this discussion that required feedback.

    My point in my admittedly exaggerated examples of penalties is to differentiate the halachic consequences of various examples of governmental punishments. Is there a halachic distinction (insofar as mesira is concerned) between a penalty of $10, $95, $1,000, $35,000 or of imprisonment? Who decides where it becomes excessive in the eyes of Halacha.

    My separate above request for clarification of Milhouse’s “reasonable attempt” point also still stands. It is also, probably, the more substantiative clarification required between the two questions based on Rabbi Milhouse’s position.

    #1616755

    Joseph
    Participant

    adocs: Regarding your posek question, that is like asking which posek holds you can’t eat lobster. Not engaging in mesira is the norm and default halachic requirement. There may be exceptions, just as there may be exceptions as to when you can be mechallel Shabbos or when you’re allowed to eat treif. (i.e. you’re starving to death and there’s no other food.)

    #1616758

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Is “blocking your driveway” meant to be interpreted literally, or is it a metaphor?

    I’m disappointed that no one wants to interpret “blocking your driveway” as a metaphor, especially considering that this is the “Inspiration / Mussar ” forum.

    #1616760

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Don’t be silly. You’re only chayev misa if you knew the alarm owner was a jew. I’m assuming you knew otherwise. If, on the other hand, you knew it was a jew and you called the cops anyway, then you’re out of luck. )-:

    I can’t say for certain that the car belonged to a Jew, but the odds are well in favor that it was a Jew’s car, since the majority of people on my block are Jews.

    And, besides, I’d do the same thing again in a heartbeat (call the cops at 3 am, and not call a Bais Din). I understand that that not only makes me a moser, but an unrepentant one who is a menace to the community.

    The Wolf

    #1616783

    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf: slaying a moser is only halachicly possible before he commits his craven deed; not afterwards. Afterwards the matter can only be adjudicated by a valid Beis Din. And it isn’t, then, a capital case.

    #1616789

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    In my humbleness, I think it makes a difference if the owner just wants the offending vehicle towed away, or to be fined. Gemarah (I think) and Halachah (I suppose too) permits to remove (at violator’s expense) something worgfully blocking you.
    הממלא חצר חברו כדים, בעל החצר משבר ויוצא משבר

    If it’s going to stay there and the intention is just to get even …. Don’t know.
    Likewise if it’s going to stay there and his intention is to teach him a lesson… Good Shailah

    #1616791

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Igros moshe choshen mishpat 1:92 allowed to work for the tax department even though you might have to report a yid cheating, since if you don’t work there a different guy will find the irregularity anyway. Here, too, it’s obvious to the whole world that a car is blocking a driveway.

    Same, 1:8: ossur to masser a guy selling neveilos; one of the reasons is that we can’t say that beis din can’t take care of it. Can we say beis din can take care of this, right away? Other reasons to asser there are that punishment by goyishe court is more than beis din…is that true here?

    shevet halevi yoreh deah 58. Noch a tax inspector. Muttar since owing the govt taxes is a legitimate choiv, als dina demalchusah, so no problem telling the govt. Ramoh says it’s bad anyway, like hashovas aveidah to a goy, but that doesn’t apply to tax man because it’s to the govt, not a nochri person. Is a fine like that? idk

    teshuva of r. elyashiv brought in sefer dvar sinai/she’eilos be’eretz hachayim 45,46—mutar to report theft to police since mesirah only applies where the goyim would treat him harshly, which is not shayech nowadays. Based on panim meiros 2:155. again, is nidon didan like a case of theft or not

    #1616792

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Igros moshe choshen mishpat 1:92 allowed to work for the tax department even though you might have to report a yid cheating, since if you don’t work there a different guy will find the irregularity anyway. Here, too, it’s obvious to the whole world that a car is blocking a driveway.

    Same, 1:8: ossur to masser a guy selling neveilos; one of the reasons is that we can’t say that beis din can’t take care of it. Can we say beis din can take care of this, right away? Other reasons to asser there are that punishment by goyishe court is more than beis din…is that true here?

    shevet halevi yoreh deah 58. Noch a tax inspector. Muttar since owing the govt taxes is a legitimate choiv, als dina demalchusah, so no problem telling the govt. Ramoh says it’s bad anyway, like hashovas aveidah to a goy, but that doesn’t apply to tax man because it’s to the govt, not a nochri person. Is a fine like that? idk

    teshuva of r. elyashiv brought in sefer devar sinai/she’eilos be’eretz hachayim 45,46—mutar to report theft to police since mesirah only applies where the goyim would treat him harshly, which is not shayech nowadays. Based on panim meiros 2:155. again, is nidon didan like a case of theft or not

    #1616798

    apushatayid
    Participant

    311 is an info line. Why is it mesira?

    #1616816

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Joseph, if you saw somebody taking out his phone to call 311 in such a situation, would you kill him? He’s publicly committing a serious aveirah.

    #1616820

    Joseph
    Participant

    APY: They can send a meter maid to issue a ticket based on the homeowner’s request.

    YY: You aren’t mechuyev (or even allowed, probably) to put yourself in a sakana with the nochri authorities for carrying out this Halacha — even when it is a situation that’s halachicly permissible.

    #1616843

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: slaying a moser is only halachicly possible before he commits his craven deed; not afterwards.

    I’ve already said that if the same thing were to happen again, I would do the same thing.

    The Wolf

    #1616886

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why would you, if you believe it’s wrong?

    #1616913

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Joseph,
    Is someone allowed to call 911 when he gets rear ended by you because you were blogging while driving?
    Or is that mesira too?

    #1616912

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’ve already said that if the same thing were to happen again, I would do the same thing.

    The Wolf

    That’s meaningless. There’s no situation occurring. What you’re saying is effectively equivalent to saying “if I ever pass a Mormon church, I’ll worship their avoda zora.”

    We don’t preemptively punish anyone for a currently non-existent situation.

    #1616917

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Joseph, even if the penalty for blocking a driveway is harsh, I would say that al pi din, yes, you have the right to inform the government so long as your intention is merely to get the car moved, not to punish the offender. The fact that you know the offender will be punished as a result of your call is not your concern.

    However midas chassidus (and Pareto optimality) in such a case would be to balance his huge loss against the small loss you suffer from being blocked in (or out of) your driveway, and not call, but pursue him in beis din for the loss he caused you.

    Regarding a reasonable effort, technically as a matter of strict halocho I’m not sure this is even required, I don’t recall seeing it written down as a requirement, but hasechel nosenes, it stands to reason that it must be so; if he would have been willing to stop damaging you on his own, but you never gave him a chance to, then how can you justify getting him in trouble?

    So what is a reasonable effort? First and most obviously, if it is at least as easy to call the driver as it is to call the cops, then it’s obvious that you must do so. But even if calling the cops is easier, it seems to me that so long as calling the guy and asking him to fix what he has done does not put a substantial burden on you, then you ought to do so. Obviously what is a substantial burden depends heavily on the circumstances, so you should probably call a rov and ask a shayla, just as you would in any other heavily fact-and-circumstance-dependent situation, such as kitchen or bedroom shaylos. That’s what a rov’s judgment is for.

    #1616930

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, I take it you make a habit of blocking people’s driveways. See Baba Kama 28a (daf koach) thtathe owner of the driveway can not only have your car dragged out but he does not have to be careful not to damage it while doing so.

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