August 9, 2017 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1335159
I called my Rav to ask him about reporting behavior that my neighbor is doing in his home. I cannot prove anything is going on but there is a lot of raised voices and what sounds like shrieks. It is scary to think what is going on. My Rav told me not to say anything and let him handle it. This happened 3 weeks ago. Last night again I heard loud screaming and shrieking from inside. I think I might need to take matters into my own hands and call shomrim or police. If nothing is going on that will make living next to him uncomfortable. I need to be sure but cannot prove anything. I am sure that something is going on..August 9, 2017 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1335230
Your Rov already paskened you cannot engage in Mesira. You’re telling us you want to be a Moser anyways and disregard his Psak, possibly putting an innocent Yiddishe mishpacha through the gehenom known as CPS and the goyishe courts? In halachic terms that’s called retzicha, hence the halachos of mesira and your Rov’s Psak.
Make sure you ask a Posek before anything.August 9, 2017 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1335232
The little I knowParticipant
Since the true situation is unknown, no one can make a definitive statement about whether there is danger or what it is. However, belief that there is danger is enough reason to take no chances, and make whatever reports are needed. I can’t tell if Shomrim is likely to be effective. Nor can we know that police are needed. But I would not take any chances. I’m not convinced that asking the Rov here is either required or useful. If anything is going on that requires police action, it would be something involving danger, and there is no question of the permissibility of reporting this to police. Worst would be the angst of cops coming to the door when nothing is happening. Tough.August 9, 2017 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1335233
i am not your daas torah but perhaps if your going to call anyone then call shomrim first before he goes public with police, perhaps shomrim can solve the issue before he gets in trouble by going public with policeAugust 9, 2017 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1335240
I dotnunderstand the question
there is a lav “Lo saamod Al Dam reicha”
IF you think soemthing bad is happening it is assur for you to just do nothing.
YOu can either go there yourself and see if you can help, or a better/safer idea for all involved is to call people who’s job it is to investigate these things and have them investigate.
Doing nothing is not an optionAugust 9, 2017 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1335248
“there is a lav “Lo saamod Al Dam reicha”
That’s where a Ruv comes in. And if he decides it’s not an issue, then it’s not. The rest is irrelevant.
If it’s bothering you, ask again.August 9, 2017 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1335247
I once called the cops on my non-Jewish beighbor because I heard screaming.
The cops never showed up.August 9, 2017 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1335259
Unless someone in that house would actually talk to the police or Shomrim, it wouldn’t help either. Police possibly would be better equipped to help, but it will likely be a long road.August 9, 2017 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1335256
No Rav is needed to say that if there is danger, you must take action.
No Rav is needed to say that if there is no danger, you must not report anyone about anything.
A Rav is needed to define the situation – which is difficult, because it is all based on your perception and conclusions. You need a reliable competent Rav to judge how to classify this case, and follow the psak. The Rav will tell you whether your evidence is enough to constitute safek sakanah, vadai sakanah or no sakanah.
Not every situation warrants reporting to the authorities. If you have a way of dealing with it which doesn’t involve mesirah, you probably are not permitted to report. If that involves you getting involved personally, then לא תעמוד על דם רעך will obligate that, and mesirah will still be forbidden.
Don’t take chances with other people’s lives and do nothing.
Don’t take chances with other peope’s lives and report them to the authorities.
Ask a Rav.August 9, 2017 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1335273
Why don’t you ask your rov again, now that it happened again?
If you don’t plan on listening to him, why did you ask him in the first place?August 9, 2017 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1335274
Maybe his Rav is wrong.August 9, 2017 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1335284
Does your neighbor own a television?August 9, 2017 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1335285
Go back to the rav and say that you feel that serious intervention is needed. Invite him to your home to experience it for himselfAugust 9, 2017 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1335304
Ask a rav and give details. Explain why you believe it’s time to call the police. If there is a possibility of the worst, call the police first. Saving a life is a big deal.August 9, 2017 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1335351
“That’s where a Ruv comes in. And if he decides it’s not an issue, then it’s not. The rest is irrelevant.”
My neighbor’s house is on fire. Im not sure if I shoudl call the fire department. I left a voicemail with my Rav I’m waiting to hear back.
Anyone here knows what else I should do?
not everything needs a shaylah
If you are ” sure that something is going on.” There is no shaylah.August 9, 2017 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1335366
oiy -“I think I might need to take matters into my own hands and call shomrim or police”
Neither of them are good idea. The best thing is to call EMS or Hatzolah and let them deal with it.
Or Sholom task force & ask them what to do!August 9, 2017 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #1335372
The little I knowParticipant
Question: Your home security system alerts you that a burglary is occurring. You can see in the camera that there is a frum boy/man you know ripping you off. Do you call your Rav, Shomrim, police? Do you run home and try and catch the ganiv yourself?August 9, 2017 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1335412
Record it and take the recording to a professional, then, if necessary,
go to the Rav with the professional’s opinion.August 9, 2017 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1335417
You framed it as Lo saamod. If your Ruv says it’s not a issue of lo sammod, than it isn’t.
A fire can spread and distroy a city block. This isn’t analogies at all. You have two options.
Do nothing, and do the right thing according to your ruv,
Call law enforcement in a frum family in order to satift your need to “do something”. In the process perhaps destroying a family and definitely doing a sin.August 9, 2017 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1335438
You liberals are missing the fact that the OP *already asked his Rov* and his Rov said **don’t be a Moser**.
His shaila about “lot of raised voices” that the OP — after hearing those sounds — is still uncertain “if nothing is going on” was already given a psak.
Is anyone advocating not only violating Hilchos Mesira based on a 10 sentence online posting above but also completely ignoring and disregarding the Psak Halacha that has already been rendered **on this very specific situation** by the Rov who heard all the details first-hand from the conversation he had with the OP?
Next case.August 9, 2017 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1335436
1) I have neighbours who scream at each other all the time, they’re in their 80s and have probably been married for 40+ years. Point being: there is a possibility they are just the type of people who scream, not good but not necessarily violent. Consider that the Rov may have more knowledge about the case which he isn’t at liberty to reveal.
2) Re the issur moiser. I don’t know the halochos but have heard (in a different situation) it can be OK to call the police without saying the exact address. E.g. if it was from house no. 48 on the road, tell them it was 46-52, you were passing by and couldn’t tell exactly which. If/when the police come they will figure out for themselves, so you weren’t technically moser them. OBVIOUSLY you must speak to a Rov before applying this!
3) Perhaps try a different Rov, say you’re concerned about how the first Rov is handling it. Hopefully Rov 2 will talk it over with Rov 1 and you can have yishuv hadaas that it has been handled well.
4) Someone said record it, not sure if its OK to record another couple’s arguments, perhaps it would be more acceptable to phone the Rov while they’re at it if he’ll be able to hear that way. If you’re really worried maybe you could consider hiring a private investigator. (New thread on YWN: private investigator recommendations…). But I don’t think its OK to start trying to find proof yourselfAugust 9, 2017 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1335448
wow, someone might be getting hurt and there are posters here calling it mesirah to get police, How telling. When you hear someone say they hear shrieking and want to call the police your Yiddish heart and head should worry that a Jew needs to be saved, not that a potential abuser might get in trouble. I can only wonder what you would say if I told you I found a boy being abused by his teacher…r”l, would you worry about mesirah before worrying about a neshama being destroyed? Oh never mind. You’ll just tell me it didn’t happen.August 9, 2017 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1335459
“You framed it as Lo saamod. If your Ruv says it’s not a issue of lo sammod, than it isn’t.”
So my Rav finaly got back to me he said I shouldnt call the fire department. (He says they will steal the silver)
Do you agree with his psak?
“A fire can spread and destroy a city block. This isn’t analogies at all”.
domestic abuse can destroy a person.
“You have two options.”
Wrong. there is one option if someone if he is ” sure that something is going on..” at least in halacha
“His shaila about “lot of raised voices” that the OP — after hearing those sounds — is still uncertain “if nothing is going on” was already given a psak”
reread the OP “I am sure that something is going on..”
As an aisdie how wil it destroy the family. The OP doesnt mention if theri are kids involved. If there arent the police hsow up, ask if everything is ok. Even if it isnt ok, if there is an adult it is still up to her whether to press charges. Nobody is getting ruined and somebody might eb getting saved.
Lo Saamad al daam reiacha.
This one is straight forward
Next question.August 9, 2017 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1335462
But there is no evidence but sound. Could just be the TV.August 9, 2017 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1335482
Gavriel: “I have neighbours who scream at each other all the time, they’re in their 80s and have probably been married for 40+ years. Point being: there is a possibility they are just the type of people who scream, not good but not necessarily violent. Consider that the Rov may have more knowledge about the case which he isn’t at liberty to reveal.”
+1 on both points. I certainly have known of families where there was a lot of screaming going on, but calling the police was not warranted. In one particular case, I did speak to their Rav, but in most of the cases, even that wasn’t warranted.August 10, 2017 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1335493
To all those who wrote that of course it’s pikiuach nefesh:
Please note that the OP wrote:
“If nothing is going on that will make living next to him uncomfortable”
So he obviously thinks that there is a definite possibility that it’s not pikuach nefesh and that there is no reason to call the police.August 10, 2017 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1335496
Sheaino Yodeia LisholParticipant
My neighbors are noisy they don’t listen i call the cops no problemAugust 10, 2017 1:18 am at 1:18 am #1335517
“1) I have neighbours who scream at each other all the time, they’re in their 80s and have probably been married for 40+ years. Point being: there is a possibility they are just the type of people who scream, not good but not necessarily violent. Consider that the Rov may have more knowledge about the case which he isn’t at liberty to reveal.”
Maybe they’re hard of hearing?August 10, 2017 3:04 am at 3:04 am #1335481
A. To all those posters who wrote that he must listen to what his Rav told him: There are a few problems with that:
1. We don’t who his Rav is. He may not be the Gadol Hador. He may be someone who is capable of making mistakes. The title “Rav” is very ambigious. There are many people who have the title Rav who are not necessarily qualified to answer every single question asked of them.
No matter how qualified someone is, most people are capable of making mistakes, so if one has reason to believe the Rav is mistaken, he should certainly ask another Rav, certainly if it is a situation of possible pikuach nefesh.
2. No matter how qualified the Rav is in terms of knowing halacha, it is possible that he didn’t understand the situation fully.
Personally, it has happened to me that I asked Rabbanim questions and I realized that they were mistaken or had not understood the question fully, so I reasked the question in some cases, and in some cases I didn’t. Whenever I did, I was happy that I did so, and when I did not I regretted it.
Please note: I am not talking about reasking a question because you don’t “like” the answer, so you want to find a Rav who will give you the answer you want. I am referring to a situation in which you are honestly concerned that the Rav may be mistaken or may have misunderstood the situation.
If you do reask the question, it should only be reasked to someone much more reliable than the first one. Since this is a very serious issue (yes, being “moiser” is a very serious thing and should only be done after getting a clear psak), one should only do so after speaking to a Gadol and not any Rabbi.
B. To all those who are sayng that of course, he must report him since it’s pikuach nefesh:
1. It might not be pikuach nefesh at all. Many people scream. That is not necessarily life-threatening and a reason to call the authorities! From the description in the OP, it really doesn’t sound like a pikuach nefesh situation to me. (although it sounds like it warrants investigating).
I assume that is why the Rav said not to say anything. Also, please keep in mind that just like we don’t know the Rav and may be skeptical of his “psak”, we also don’t know the OP.
If you are willing to consider the possibility that the Rav could be wrong in his evaluation of the situation, why not consider the possibility that the OP might be wrong in his evaluation as well? Maybe the OP is the type of person gets nervous easily and his Rav is aware of the fact? Bottom-line, don’t be so quick to assume that it’s a pikuach nefesh situation.
We have one person involved who thinks it’s pikuach nefesh (the OP) and one who doesn’t (the Rav).
Why does the fact that the OP is the one who went online make him more reliable than his Rav?
2. As Yekke wrote: “Not every situation warrants reporting to the authorities. If you have a way of dealing with it which doesn’t involve mesirah, you probably are not permitted to report.”
3. Please keep in mind that the pikuach nefesh here works both ways. By reporting when it’s not necessary, you may be destroying someone in a worse way than you would by not reporting. You must be sure that it is the correct thing to do before doing so.
4. If you are really concerned that your Rav isn’t handling it correctly, ask another Rav, but make sure he is more competent than the first. Or find someone who knows the family and will either know if the situation is really life-threatening and/or will be able to do something about it.
Bottom-line: be very careful about making any assumptions in either direction.
One more point: I would call up the Rav again and ask him what he’s done and share my concerns with him, before asking another Rav.August 10, 2017 3:15 am at 3:15 am #1335531
If nothing is going on that will make living next to him uncomfortable. I need to be sure but cannot prove anything. I am sure that something is going on.
There’s a contradiction there. I’m not sure if the OP is sure about how sure he is.August 10, 2017 5:29 am at 5:29 am #1335535
“Bottom-line: be very careful about making any assumptions in either direction.”
LEts go through the worst case scenarios if he makes the wrong call
a) Nothing is happening and he calls the police – Police show up say they were told there was screaming he says no look its my TV they say oh maybe turn it down a little have a nice day
the only thing that might get destroyed in this scenario is his relationship with his neighbor
b) something is happening and he doesnt call the police – Id rather not spell out the worst caseAugust 10, 2017 8:36 am at 8:36 am #1335537
You don’t call 911 if a neighboring couple has Shalom Bayis problems where they get into a shouting match every 3 weeks, as the OP described. As others mentioned, some couples are like that (which obviously isn’t ideal but it isn’t rare).
His Rov is correct.August 10, 2017 8:38 am at 8:38 am #1335541
“So he obviously thinks that there is a definite possibility that it’s not pikuach nefesh and that there is no reason to call the police.”
anything is possible.
I would assume if he heard gunshots everyone would agree to call the police (maybe not Joseph because as an excellent thread points out he is Joseph, and as he explains he isnt “liberal” which I suppose in this scenario means worried about victims?)
IS it possible that she pulled a gun first and he was protecting his life and there is no longer any danger? sure!
but I think all agree it is best the police determine that.
Halacha tells us what to do in cases where ” there is a definite possibility that it’s not pikuach nefesh” and also a possibility that there is.
question. There is a house on fire on Shabbos. Im not sure if anyone is inside, if they were inside maybe they got out, if they diditn getout maybe they are dead already. Can I cal lthe fire department? Must I? (there is no risk to any other house and yes that isnt exactly how the mishna presents it)August 10, 2017 8:47 am at 8:47 am #1335547
You don’t call 911 if a neighboring couple has Shalom Bayis problems where they get into a shouting match every 3 weeks, as the OP described
He didn’t say 911, he suggested shomrim or police. He also never said neighborhood couple, shalom bayis or shouting match. He said raised voices and shrieks. You seem to have a reference point of that being a couple ‘interacting’ but it could very well be any loud or out of control family member and any other family member including a small child.
His Rov is correct.
You have no idea if his Rov is correct or not because you don’t have anymore information than anyone else. Even if he has to adhere to his Rov’s instructions of allowing the Rov to address it (which is NOT the same as leaving it be) you still don’t know if it was correct. You just like to be caustic.August 10, 2017 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1335551
So we don’t know whether the OP heard two teenagers shrieking at one another or an 85 year old couple yelling at his spouse or a mother shrieking at her child or a father raising his voice at his son.
Yet we have posters here telling him to call the cops even they don’t know 10% of the story. Whereas the Rov shlita who he consulted with and described who the persons are, and the Rov knows what their relationship to each other is and what kind of raised voices were involved said not to call the cops or anyone else.
And those here who don’t know a fraction of the story are telling him to disregard the Rov who has far more information than you, me and the other posters here?August 10, 2017 8:59 am at 8:59 am #1335552
As someone stated make sure it is not a TV or movie/youtube playing loudly. I take for grant it the voices you heard are legit. The next time this happens record it (the voices)! Then bring it to your Rav. If he still says do not do anything then get a second opinion from a very respected Rav and show them the recording. If all fails and you have the recording to back you up call the cops.August 10, 2017 9:11 am at 9:11 am #1335558
Then bring it to your Rav. If he still says do not do anything then get a second opinion from a very respected Rav and show them the recording. If all fails and you have the recording to back you up call the cops.
So your suggestion is to go to two rabbonim and then not listen to them unless they give the desired psak?August 10, 2017 9:11 am at 9:11 am #1335559
mylogic, so call one Rov and if he says no call another rabbi. If the next one says no too, disregard and be moser anyways? Yeah, I get that.August 10, 2017 9:11 am at 9:11 am #1335561
oh Joseph you are so cute and entertaining! Rav shlita. Cute. For all you know his Rov is Avi Weiss. Or maybe Rabbi Lila Kagedan.
Big surprise here—this is an online forum. People bring up scenarios and other people discuss them. We rarely have “all” the information, and in instances like this where the OP disappears after his first post (leaving the legitimacy of the story in question) we have even less info. But posters are discussing the concept and other posters are answering those posts or bringing their own thoughts.
Chill out.August 10, 2017 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1335570
DaasYochidParticipantAugust 10, 2017 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1335571
Big surprise here—this is an online forum. People bring up scenarios and other people discuss them. We rarely have “all” the information
Ah, so we pasken pekuach nefesh shailos here by telling someone to engage in mesira and call the cops based on what you say “We rarely have “all” the information” because “this is an online forum”.
Got it. Do you also prescribe medication over this public online forum using this same criteria? Even if the doctor already told him not to take medication?August 10, 2017 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1335572
I see him in Shul, and I am quite confident he will just deny everything.August 10, 2017 9:38 am at 9:38 am #1335573
Where is the troll who started this thread?August 10, 2017 9:42 am at 9:42 am #1335581
This is an online forum where people discuss things, Syag, so what could be so bad if we prescribe specific medication to a poster who describes his medial ailments. We’re just discussing medical concepts and offering our own thoughts and answers. Chill out.August 10, 2017 9:43 am at 9:43 am #1335584
Ah, so we pasken pekuach nefesh shailos here
equating discussion and opinion with paskening? Interesting twist…
Do you also prescribe medication
Do I prescribe medication even when I do have all the information? Ohhhhhh, you mean do I discuss medication? Sure, if someone told me their doctor prescribed Vicodin for a hangnail I would probably discuss it. I can imagine having lots of questions and opinions on that.
What exactly was your point?August 10, 2017 9:43 am at 9:43 am #1335586
Avram in MDParticipant
You liberals are missing the fact that the OP *already asked his Rov* and his Rov said **don’t be a Moser**.
Wait, when did this become a “liberal” issue?
Also, where did the rav say anything about mesira? If you’re going to call out posters who make assumptions without knowing all of the facts, you should first check to make sure you are not doing the same.August 10, 2017 9:48 am at 9:48 am #1335574
I think the advice people are giving is on point. I truly dont know forsure. If I had to guess the husband is being abusive. I asked my wife to try and speak with the wife to get to the bottom of it. We aren’t calling the police because of the potential issues but I asked my Rav this morning to bring it up with the Vaad, perhaps they can employ an organization to help. I would hate to be the reason for a break in a family. We’ll see how things play out, iyh for the good.August 10, 2017 9:49 am at 9:49 am #1335607
This is an online forum where people discuss things, Syag, so what could be so bad if we prescribe specific medication to a poster who describes his medial ailments. We’re just discussing medical concepts and offering our own thoughts and answers. Chill out.
yes, that is exactly what I was telling you. Although where you come up with interchanging discuss and prescribe….which poster is prescribing meds online?
The telling piece is your initial knee jerk cry of mesira, in a situation that should have elicited a concern for a potential victim your cry was for a potential abuser. Try reeling that one back in.August 10, 2017 9:54 am at 9:54 am #1335616
Avram in MDParticipant
Calling cops on frum neighbor
This thread is about a beighbor, so I don’t see how that one is relevant. Oh, wait.August 10, 2017 9:55 am at 9:55 am #1335617
Avram, other than the fact that we are all Yidden here subject to Halacha, why else did the Rov tell him *not* to report this to any authorities?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.