Camp Prices are High

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  • #591895

    Truth1
    Member

    What do you think is a good price for Sleep-away camp? As a Parent i find that camp prices have gone really high…. To such a degree that day camp are doing better than sleepaway camps?

    #688946

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A good price is one you can afford.

    Don’t go into debt for sleep-away camp.

    The Wolf

    #688947

    The camp I go to charges about 1600 for a half. I think up to 1800 is reasonable but yes, there are those camps that charge 2000 which I think is crazy.

    #688948

    ch123
    Member

    wow wollf. logic……

    #688949

    I think you do a great disservice to the community when you post something like this. Everyone is entitled to have a business and charge whatever they want. They don’t owe you anything! You can make your own decision as to whether or not you can afford it,, but you are implying that they are doing something wrong by charging what you consider to be so much and it’s as if you are saying that you are entitled to a cheaper camp price. Let each person decide for themselves, but camp owners (many of whom are NOT becoming rich) can decide what price they want to charge. It’s a free market. Same goes for seminaries- it’s as if people think that people who own seminaries OWE people an affordable seminary experience. It’s a business (again, one off of which MOST are NOT becoming rich, contrary to popular belief) and it’s their right to charge what they want and your right as a consumer to pay or not. They don’t owe anyone anything!

    #688950

    ch123
    Member

    seminary and camps are definitely MORE than just a business… would you send your kid to an institution that’s just there to make money?

    #688951

    I obviously agree and know that first hand. I was commenting on the money aspect…If someone wanted to just make money, camp/ seminary would NOT be the first place I would turn…which just reinforces my point…

    #688952

    dveykus613
    Member

    ramateshkolian – I see your point, and I personally don’t send to these camps, but I am in Israel – I think the others’ point is that, at least in the states, it has gotten to a point of peer pressure, and parents who can’t afford it feel they have to send to camp and seminary because all their kids friends are going (besides the obviously great experience that is more than money but if it was just that they could make a “shikul” based on their finances – the peer pressure and making their kid not feel like a neb makes them feel they have to stretch beyond what they can…hence the resentment about the expense…IMHO)

    #688953

    Max Well
    Member

    ramateshkolian: You are dead wrong. The Torah has price controls. Torah Judaism is not a capitalistic society. Secondly, there is nothing wrong if they get rich; what is wrong is if they charge more than the TORAH allows.

    #688954

    chesedname
    Participant

    it’s not even a peer pressure thing anymore, if everyone is in camp, and levi decides not to send his kids to camp, what should they do? there aren’t any friends around to play with?

    also with some many families where the mother works, whose watching these kids if they’re not in camp?

    the only solution is a rich guy, or the agudah, etc. opens a camp at cost price

    #688955

    Camps should be viewed as a LUXURY for people that can afford them.

    They should not be a requirement for kids.

    Parents should not feel obligated to go into debt for this. As it is parents aren’t making it.

    If parents need to go into debt for their children to go to camp, it’s time to come out with camp rules, just like wedding rules, for the self-esteem challenged.

    #688956

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The Torah has price controls.

    Please illustrate where the Torah has firm price controls.

    The only one I can think of off the top of my head that might be considered a price control is the issur of “ona’ah.” However, that depends on the already existing market price of an item which can fluctuate depending on supply and demand. There is no firm price control there.

    Yes, there are firm prices for certain religious services (a pidyon Haben is always 5 shkalim) — but for general market goods and services, I don’t see where there are any firm price controls.

    The Wolf

    #688957

    obviously we are talking about a normal range. If the camps really did charge too much, they would be empty and would lower their prices (which they might have done, I don’t know). But chesedname you are now implying that there is a need for camps to be a tzedakka organization so the mother can work…interesting…

    #688958

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Camps should be viewed as a LUXURY for people that can afford them.

    They should not be a requirement for kids.

    Parents should not feel obligated to go into debt for this. As it is parents aren’t making it.

    Indeed, that’s the painful choice we had to make last year. Last year none of our kids went to camp — it just wasn’t economically possible. This year, sadly, is the same.

    The Wolf

    #688959

    Max Well
    Member

    The halachic price controls are the percentage markup that is allowable.

    #688961

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The halachic price controls are the percentage markup that is allowable.

    Right. Which, as I described above, is a function of the already varying market rate. There is no fixed price control for any market good/service in the Torah. The only fixed prices are for certain religious functions (pidyon haben, chatzi shekel, etc.)

    The Wolf

    #688962

    chesedname
    Participant

    ramateshkolian

    that’s not exactly what i said.

    if the agudah or some other organization, or gvir runs a camp at cost price, they’re not collecting or giving tzedaka, they’re just not charging more than it cost, and it’s not a business for them.

    and I’m not saying they should do it so we can put mothers to work, but the reality is mothers are working, so if they can’t send to camp, whose supposed to watch them over the summer? if my employees want 2 months off to watch their kids, they’ll be spending a lot more than 2 months at home.

    #688963

    Yanky R.
    Member

    Wolf: I do believe the halachic limit on how much you may mark up a product in price is based upon cost.

    #688964

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yes, and costs for any given product, in any given region, are usually pretty similar.

    The Wolf

    #688965

    R.L.
    Member

    chesedname – I dont think that having someone run a camp at cost price is a practical solution. In life you have to make choices about how to spend your money, but asking others to give you LUXURIES at cost price isnt reasonable. 1000 years ago everything worked with trade and there was no money, so when you traded your potatoes for your neighbor’s carrots you were getting the carrots at cost price. Nowadays though that wouldnt work – everyone sells their services at a profit.

    Also, cost price of camps is pretty high too so if you cant afford what it is now there’s no guarantee that you’ll be able to afford cost price

    (BTW there are camps like Sternberg which give a lot of scholarships)

    #688966

    Max Well
    Member

    WolfishMusings: Wholesale cost and market prices are two separate issues. Often in a capitalistic society market prices are out of whack (i.e. far higher) than wholesale cost.

    The halachic price limits are based on costs, not necessarily market prices.

    #688967

    maybe taking 10 weeks (or so) off of school a year is a little much. I don’t understand how this came to be and why it is allowed to go on. While I can relate to the teachers who want and deserve a break for sure, but 10 weeks is really a lot, especially since most rabbeim and moros don’t have to use vacation days for yomim tovim. But I think we can only take away from our rabbeim and moros when we’ve given them something like a raise in salary, or maybe even some Kavod for what they do….

    #688968

    Truth1
    Member

    “I think we can only take away from our rabbeim and moros when we’ve given them something like a raise in salary, or maybe even some Kavod for what they do…. “

    So true… But where all human

    #688969

    tomim tihye
    Member

    Wolf, I felt like I was on the road not taken ’til I read your post… and that has made all the difference.

    Seems like everyone I know sends to camp and mine are the only kids around during the day. I can’t imagine they can all afford it, and only we cannot, so something’s wrong.

    Daycamps charge about $1500 for the summer (to be fair, that’s usually after transportation and tips, especially if you got the early bird special.) When you have a few kids to send, that’s an expensive 8 weeks!

    I am very grateful that we are up-to-date on our tuitions, though.

    #688970

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Max well: Halacha allows unlimited pricing for time and effort, as the worker can claim he does a better job (as all camps claim).

    Well said and echo Wolf: A good price is one you can afford.

    #688972

    mosherose
    Member

    “Indeed, that’s the painful choice we had to make last year. Last year none of our kids went to camp — it just wasn’t economically possible. This year, sadly, is the same.”

    If yur letting yur kids stay home and watch the TV all day yur bringing them harm. Every1 nos that a free summer without rules can undo all the work that a yeshvia did for the kid all year.

    #688973

    kapusta
    Participant

    mosherose, whoever said anything about TV? Staying home simply means no camp. One summer I stayed home and for the bulk of it, I helped out someone I knew who needed it. That probably did me a lot better than any camp could.

    *kapusta*

    #688974

    aries2756
    Participant

    As for how much a camp can/should or is reasonable to charge there is no answer. Every camp would and does have different variables such as mortgage on the property, number of campers, number of staff, payroll for Rebbeim and other employees, supplies needed, insurance, expenses and so on. There is no way to compare one to another and no way to assume whether one is fare or not. Fare is choosing a camp that fits your budget and hashkafas towards your kids. If your kids are happy you are happy, and if YOU are overburdened and financially drained the kids can feel your stress and cannot possibly be happy.

    Everyone needs to learn to live within their means and budget themselves accordingly. There is always going to be someone out there who is going to do better and afford more than we can. There is always going to be someone out there that will start a new trend and get a cazilion people to follow them. Remember the Torah tells us neither a leader nor a follower be. One must determine for oneself the path they must take, and they have to do so without considering what the neighbors will say.

    #688976

    Truth1
    Member

    Camps Are not doing that great… If you just compare the numbers of campers going to camp in last few years to this year you would realize camps numbers are down meaning that camps are hurting greatly… It true some are doing better than others… But most parents are nervous due to tuition costs…

    Does anyone agree? yes/no

    #688977

    apushatayid
    Participant

    PERHAPS one of the reasons the costs for camp are higher is because of some of the expenses incurred by the camp. If these costs would go away, perhaps camp prices would come down. Do camps have to go on trips all the time? When I was in camp 25 years ago, the trip was going to camp (and in sleepaway camp the major trip, was to the local blwling alley). Concerts twice a summer? Specialty activities such as white water rafting and trips to water parks? (It is true that some camps now charge a “trip fee” on top of the camp fee)

    Yes, there are certain fixed costs that exist no matter what, but there is a lot of extra fluff that can costs tens of thousands of dollars that can be done away with. BUT, would you want to send your kid to that nebby camp that doesnt do all those cool and exciting things? How could you face your kid? How could your kid face their friends. What, your camp didnt go on the three day excurion to Niagra Falls, what a horrible summer you must have had.

    #688978

    ramateshkolian-

    I agree with you 100%. Nobody is making a killing off of this business. I personally know camp directors who work EXTREMELY hard on the biggest overnight camp in the city. They are not making a fortune or anything close to it.

    Supply and demand. That’s why we believe in capitalism.

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