Can An Avel Listen To Music On Lag Baomer?

Home Forums Yom Tov Can An Avel Listen To Music On Lag Baomer?

  • This topic contains 30 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by  oomis 10 years ago.
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  • #589768

    Belev Echad
    Participant

    anyone ever hear if an avel can listen to music on lag baomer? (please leave out the “why would they want to” comments and just answer a simple yes or no)

    thanks

    #645375

    tzippi
    Member

    Trust me, I did my 11 months as a teen so you won’t get any why would you want to from me. I can’t quote anything but I doubt it. I don’t think an avel can go to a chasuna today etc. either.

    #645376

    anonymisss
    Participant

    b.e.-why should they be allowed to?

    ~a~

    #645377

    feivel
    Participant

    anon

    i believe be is wondering:

    if Lag B’Omer is a heter for listening to music during Sefirah, which is compared to aveilus, perhaps it is a heter for availus itself?

    quite an excellent question

    #645378

    Jewess
    Member

    Belev Echad, somebody gave me “Mourning in Halachah” by Rabbi Chaim Binyamin Goldberg when my dad died. I will check in the book for you.

    There’s no topic of listening to music on Lag Baomer in the index, but

    according to Rabbi Goldberg (25:31) “During the entire twelve months of mourning, the mourner is forbidden to listen to a musical performance, even if it is not a celebration…”

    #645379

    Nobody
    Member

    Through my work with the Chevra Kadisha we have had shiurim on all these issues and I can tell you that one may not listen to music on Lag B’omer if one is an Ovol.

    Tzippi you are correct an Ovol may not go to a wedding either.

    An Ovol is an Ovol.

    Feivel you use the word Heter. Whilst I would never, ever, ever Chus V’shulem tell any Ovol what to do or what is right or wrong and yes I have been there and more than once, I would like to add an addendum here and forgive me if I am out of turn, who would want to look for a Heter for any occasion or anything when Hashem has given us such a special opportunity of one whole year to observe extra special Kibbud Ov V’aim a time that we will never have again.

    May Hashem give strength to all Aveilim throughout their hard, dark days.

    #645380

    feivel
    Participant

    nobody

    i take no offense but a heter is a heter. it is a very, very important component of Halachah. it is not a bad thing. the greatest Poskim often would spend hours of their precious time searching to find a heter for someone in need.

    even for availus, not everyone is holding at such a high madrayga as you. in answer to your question, many times during availus a family simcha, such as a daughters Chasunah might arise, and one might look for heterim, even during availus, to be there for ones precious child. there could be many more reasons for looking for heterim during availus.

    i do agree in general though with your lofty understanding of what availus is

    #645381

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Lag B’Omer is not a heter for listening to music during sfira, which is aveilus.

    There is no aveilus of sfira during Lag B’Omer (with regards to music). However, an avel will still have their other aveilus, and as such, will not be able to listen to music.

    To phrase it in Yeshivish, it is Hutra, not d’chooya.

    #645383

    Belev Echad
    Participant

    ok thanks for your answers everybody

    #645384

    tzippi
    Member

    Sometimes when people ask about heterim during aveilus, like a relative’s chasuna, it’s not for them so much as the relative having the simcha. Imagine a newly orphaned kallah who not only won’t have her mother at her chasuna, she can’t even have her sisters there? So, as with all of life, there are many nuances.

    #645386

    cantoresq
    Member

    It seems to me that if an avel can listed to music during his/her aveilut, Lag Baomer is no different. When my father died I was told that I could listen to music as it is not a simcha m’reiut for me. I always listen to music at every opportunity and it is simply part and parcel of my lifestyle. Aveilut does not require one to alter his/her basic lifestyle. It does require that one curtail joyous activities.

    #645387

    Nobody
    Member

    Feivel please forgive me in that I did not mean to question what a heter is. I am well aware what a heter is and of the importance to use one at times. My words were very clear and the example you raise about a wedding of family is interesting.

    But…………Halacha is Halacha and a Heter is a Heter. I will say no more.

    Just to finish my understanding is not lofty – that’s rather insulting. It’s just crystal absolute clear not hetering (is there such a word?!) of Availus

    #645388

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    here we go again….

    #645389

    Nobody-

    Reading “feivel”s post, it’s 100% clear that he was not being insulting.

    Rather, he was praising the approach you take to aveilus for a parent; that it is “a special opportunity of one whole year to observe extra special Kibbud Ov V’aim a time that we will never have again”.

    #645390

    Belev Echad
    Participant

    WHAT! tzipi, if an avel’s sister gets married there is a real shaila if the avel can attend? does anyone know more info about this- is this something that heterim come easily about or is it a real question?

    #645391

    moish01
    Member

    real question. my cousin got married within the year for her father. i know they all went and they were allowed to hear music but they were only allowed to dance for a very short amount of time. the girls were allowed a little longer because their sister was the kalla, but it was stricter for the boys because the chosson doesn’t really need his brothers-in-law to dance that much for him to be happy.

    i think every rov will say different things but that was the psak they got.

    dreadful wedding either way.

    #645393

    feivel
    Participant

    i can only try:

    exactly.

    thank you.

    #645394

    Jewess
    Member

    Belev Echad, some people (mourners) attend weddings of close friends and family and sit outside at a table designated for them.

    I’m not really that strict with many things but for some reason, when my dad died, I felt guilty not keeping the halachot. I didn’t dance by a close friend’s wedding which was HUGE for me (I’m a dancer…)

    I don’t know if heterim are easy to get, but you could always ask a Rabbi if you want to do the right thing.

    #645395

    tzippi
    Member

    Belev echad, YMMV. A dear friend lost her mother shortly before her chasuna and all her siblings attended the chasuna (and ate at a table outside the main room) but go so many different answers depending on whom they asked. One brother shaved, another didn’t e.g. I don’t remember about dancing. There were factors such as the need to be mesameiach the kallah, and be there for the elder widowed father who’s heart was breaking enough.

    #645396

    feivel
    Participant

    nobody

    the attitude that a Mitzvah is a precious opportunity and privilege, not a burden to seek to lighten with heterim, which you expressed, i find to be not only lofty but certainly much desired by Hashem. i did not state this sarcastically.

    the only potential (friendly) disagreement i had with your statement (not with you, who i highly respect) was that you seemed to be expressing the feeling that a heter is something undesirable, while i meant to clarify that there are circumstances where a Halachically sanctioned heter can be a good thing.

    we perhaps misunderstood each other, something very easily done in a written format.

    feivel

    #645397

    JayMatt19
    Participant

    My father was an avel during my wedding. He was told he could not have an assigned seat. So we left a few seats open on a few tables and he made the rounds 😉

    #645398

    ambush
    Participant

    in such situations, the best thing to do is…

    ask your LOR!

    Also, the avielus of Sefira is NOT Deoriasa. Meaning, in the first original sefira, it was a time a joyous albeit serious preparation, getting ready to recieve the Torah.

    Only AFTER were the Talmidim or R’ Akiva niftar, and therefor Chazal instituted Avielus. Hence the Avielus we observe in this time is not complete (and only focused on)Avielus.

    Therefor i don’t believe one can make the connection of a being allowed to listen to music during Sefira, and an Avel being allowed to listen.

    but once again… ask your LOR!

    #645399

    PM
    Member

    ambush: aveilus is never d’oraisa, but you are correct that sefira is not true aveilus and therefore it is waived on Lag B’Omer while true aveilus certainly is not.

    The word “heter” is often a misnomer. Simply, to a Posek who knows the Halacha well, the issur never applied under the circumstances he is permitting.

    #645400

    feivel
    Participant

    PM

    enlightening clarification

    thanks

    #645401

    oomis
    Participant

    No. Even if Lag B’omer is a suspension of the Miktzas aveilus ocurring during sefira, it does not override the ACTUAL and full aveilus that one must observe on the loss of a parent chalilah.

    #645402

    jphone
    Member

    Is Sefira “aveilus”? Are we allowed to wear new clothing? Build a binyan shel simcha?

    I dont know the answer to this question, and I was hoping all the Poskim on YWN would help me out here. Where is it brought down that one can not listen to music during sefira (I am not implying that we can or arguing on a minhag), all I see in the mechaber is that we should not take haircuts and make chasunas. Where does music fit in?

    #645403

    Belev Echad
    Participant

    Hmmmmmm….ok, tell me what you think about this thought- if an avel gets engaged, is it normal to push off the wedding till after the year is up? like, 6, 8 months?

    #645404

    oomis
    Participant

    Is Sefira “aveilus”? Are we allowed to wear new clothing? Build a binyan shel simcha?

    Sefira is “miktzas aveilus” a small part of aveilus. Haircuts and shaving are not done, and live music is not listened to. I was told by my son The Tzaddik (just kidding, he IS a tzaddik, but we don’t call him that), that he learned in Yeshivah both here and in E”Y, that contrary to popular belief, one may wear new clothing, especially if it is necessary new clothing. It is not the same form of aveilus that we observe during the Three Weeks and Nine Days. We always held not to even buy new stuff during sefira much less use it, but that, I have come to learn over the past few years, is not an halachic opinion held by many.

    #645405

    jphone
    Member

    “Sefira is “miktzas aveilus” a small part of aveilus. Haircuts and shaving are not done, and live music is not listened to.”

    Where does the statement “live music is not listened to” come from? Who, what and where is the source for this? Mechaber? Rema? Mishna Berura? Other nosei keilim? This statement implies “non live” music IS (permitted, to be)listened to. Who or what is the source for the distinction between live and pre-recorded music? Is it limited to music? What about other sources of entertainment such as singing and dancing? Is that permitted? If yes, why is it different than music? Who drew these distinctions and what is the basis for them (assuming they are all correct).

    #645406

    cherrybim
    Participant

    However, there are various degrees of heteirim: During the year we need music to calm our nerves. Also music during the year music is permitted for a s’udas mitzva.

    But it could be that according to the M’chaber and Rav Moshe, the music that they assur all year is lively music, not classical or dirges. So perhaps this type of music would be permitted during s’fira as well (it IS muter according to Rav Saloveichik and my Rav). Can this logic be extended to an avel all year, and during s’fira. I don’t think anyone will give a public heter, however, maybe yes to a private heter.

    #645407

    oomis
    Participant

    Jphone – I was specifically taught that in the privacy of my car or home, I absolutely could listen to the radio or a tape. I CHOOSE not to do so during sefira. During the Three Weeks, there is no question about this, as it is aveilus for the Churban. But Sefira is not that same type of aveilus.

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