Can following a Chumra become a Chilul Hashem

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  • #1548556

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD: Actually we do. Unless you happen to believe they we can’t rank that Rav Moshe zt’l was a bigger godol than Rabbi Lord Baron Immanuel Jakobovits zt’l, for example.

    #1548559

    dullradiance
    Participant

    I have a question regarding the comment “It doesn’t matter if they keep Shabbos if they’re not Jewish…”.

    Isn’t a non-Jewish person who “keeps Shabbos” violating one of the 7 mitzvos Benei Noach? Isn’t such a violation a capital offense?

    #1548600

    שומו שמים
    חזון ישעיהו
    The same usernames who are supposedly overly worried for a Chumra become a Chilul Hashem
    Are the same fellows on another thread bending over backwards defending the ultimate Chilul Hashem?!

    #1548609

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    The whole entire thread has always just been a “my tatty is bigger than your’s” case. Those who like the Rabbanut will go like them, those who like Eidah will go like them. The only chiddush in this permutation of the argument is that the race-card was pulled.

    #1548612

    Joseph
    Participant

    dullreliance: Yes.

    #1548616

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    dullradiance

    First of all, I was referring to this particular issue of non-jews touching wine.

    Secondly it’s not our job to police what non-jews do, it’s their job to police themselves.

    Thirdly, if a non-jew keeps Shabbos on a Wednesday, he’s also violating it

    #1548619

    To answer the title, I think so – see the chapter on “Mishkal haChassidus” in Mesillas Yesharim.

    #1548657

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Well if you want to rank Gedolim, Rav Ovadiah Yosef is up there, he is not a lightweight

    #1548676

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In response to another poster, today we live in an era of “optional religion” meaning people can observe or not observe (In this world, not the next world) The enemy is no longer the christian religion, but no religion and while many would rather have a smaller population but with greater observence, I do not feel that is the best plan. I cannot tell you how many people where turned on by this PSAK, but I can tell you alot of people were turned off

    #1548684

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    Christianity is still a problem and observance levels have always been a problem as well.

    We don’t change halacha due to political expediency. It is what it is.

    #1548686

    I cannot tell you how many people where turned on by this PSAK,
    but I can tell you alot of people were turned off

    A rav’s obligation is to pasken the halocho as he perceives it to be,
    regardless of whether the halocho is going to turn people on or off.

    #1548683

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    zahavasdad,
    As was R. Weiss, R. Moshe, R. SZ R. Elyashiv

    #1548717

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY,
    1. Read it again. Rav Moshe was talking about before giur. He said that they should be mekareved and then undergo giur l’chumra. He said that some people do not want to because they are black.
    2, The Ethiopians in question have undergone conversion or are children of converts.

    Dull & Yitczchok, for a non-Jew the night follows the day. Therefor, if a non-Jew keeps Shabbat but soes melacha on Motzash he is in the clear.

    Ran, true but he cannot dance a two weddings. If they are safek mamzerim there is at least a safek if he is Jewish. As I have previously posted, stam yaynam is rabbinic so the we are lenient. One who says differently is disagreeing with Chazal and all Savoraim, Gaonim, Rishonim and Achronim who came before him.

    #1548722

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Avi, read it again. You are wrong.

    You’re also wrong to apply safek d’rabbonon l’kula to put yourself in the situation of safek l’chatchilah when it’s avoidable.

    Furthermore, hechsherim don’t simply certify that something is kosher after the fact. They arrange that it should be produced on the best possible manner.

    Technically, they can certify a non Jewish produced item with a small amount of treif in it, but the reliable ones don’t. Rav Moshe calls it m’chuar. Chazal say batel b’shishim, but that doesn’t mean you’re supposed to put yourself in that situation, even when technically, ein m’vatlin issur doesn’t apply.

    #1548727

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY,
    1. Read the first part on the previous page “הצריכם להצילם יש גירותם קודם גם אבל
    נפשות ש״ספק ישראל, . Thus he says that the people who do not want to mekarev them even before giur l’chumra are racists.
    2. Please cite where Rav Moshe says that. He may have been referring to a situation where the treif ingredient is listed on the package (FDA regs require that it be listed if it is at least 1%).
    3. What about chillul Hashem, causing hatred, safek inui gerim and not loving them? IMHO the Badatz’ action is chassidut shel shtut
    4. According to Barkan CEO Col. (Res.) Erez Wiener “The Badatz [Edah Haharedit] is a body that uses the commercial power it has accumulated in order to establish criteria that are not always halakhic and consistent. Many times they are meant to preserve the status of Badatz,” says Wiener, and tells of his story with the members of the Edah Haharedit.
    “I turned to them about a year ago and we wanted to examine a commercial possibility, because I do not have a kashrut problem. I have five kosher seals and I feel at peace and confident in drinking my wine and selling it as kosher, but this was a commercial consideration and we turned to them, we were in a sort of negotiation process over the large monetary demands and we had reached an agreement, and then they got into all sorts of demands to move people from their jobs, because this one is not religious enough and that one is doesn’t have enough fear of Heaven and all sorts of criteria that I did not like, and in the end I accompanied them politely to the door and gave up on this kashrut.” [Arutz 7]

    According to the Jerusalem Post, the chief kashrut supervisor at the Barkan Winery, Yosef Promovitch, told Yediot Aharonot that “there are Ethiopians who know that they are Jews – who have undergone conversion – and there are Ethiopians who are not, who are questionable.”
    The Barkan supervisor added that as a blanket rule, workers of Ethiopian origin could not touch wine. “The Badatz is not willing to accept Ethiopians.”

    #1548782

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You are sticking words in his pen which he didn’t write, but even if that were true, you’re still ignoring the main point that he holds they need geirus.

    Quoting someone saying that the Badatz wants the people involved in the food production to be yarei shomayim isn’t going to make me think less of them…

    I’m short of time now. Pull out a Yad Moshe and search, as I would do if I had time.

    #1548759

    Toi
    Participant

    This thread is totally insane. There were Gedolei oilam that had serious doubts about the jewishness of these people. There’s nothing racist about facts- acknowledging, for example, that black men having a higher rate of heart disease than white men is not racist, it is medical fact. Having doubts as to how Jewish these people are in halachic terms is not racist, as seen by the psak shown above by rabanim on equal footing with R’ ovadia, if not bigger. If we’re dealing with those who have not undergone giyur, this is nothing more than liberal nonsense. While R’ Yosef is entitled to his psak, so is the eida. If we’re dealing with after giyur, it depends on who did it, If it was the rabbanut, there’s def makom for chashashos. Bikitzur, this is stupid.

    Joseph- I don’t know if anyone on the eida today is as big a Gaon as R ovadia, but the dayanim brought down above certainly were.

    #1548788

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There exist other wine. Why use it when questionable? Sefaka derabonon lekula applies only bedaved.

    #1548790

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I turned to them about a year ago and we wanted to examine a commercial possibility, because I do not have a kashrut problem. I have five kosher seals……. in the end I accompanied them politely to the door and gave up on this kashrut.”

    In short, the potential profits from a 6th hechsher, are not worth the hassles it comes along with, and they are happy with the 5 they do have.

    Just curious, who are the FIVE hechsherim on this winery?

    #1548791

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The sefardim following Rav Ovadia Yosef can drink it, but the ashkenazim cannot.

    #1548792

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If these 3 Ethiopians who were transfered , were Russians instead, Would the Eidah have asked them all the change jobs (Given than 1/3 of Russians are not Halachically jewish)

    #1548945

    Avi K
    Participant

    1. Toi, we are dealing with people who either have undergone giur or are children of those who have (the main Beta Israel aliya occurred almost forty years ago although there were aliyot before and after). The Eida does not recognize anyone outside their own little circle as being real observant Jews.

    2. I saw three hechsherim on Barkan wine: Rabbanut, Badatz Bet Yosef (established by Rav Ovadia – the Bet Yosef is machmir on the percentage of water allowed and once at a wedding RO said “shehakol” on the wine) and Chug Chatam Sofer (Chareidim, mainly Chassidim and mainly in Petach Tikva and Bnei Brak). As Barkan is sold internationally I presume that the other two are non-Israeli and thus do not appear on Israeli labels.

    3. I have already listed the kullot that come from this chumra. Scroll up.

    #1548978

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    How can Chug Chatam Sofer give a hechsher if the Eida does not?

    #1549035

    MDG
    Participant

    I don’t think that there is anything wrong with the Eida holding to their standards. That being said, there seems to be a couple things that they/the mashgiah did bad.
    1. According to the article, he smashed the bottle in front of the Ethiopian. There is no need to get violent nor embarrass some one.
    2. It seems that the owner (from what was said above) was careful to use only those who went through conversion for processes that involve open containers of wine. It seems as though the Eida mashgiah just said “No Ethiopians” without looking into the status of the individual.

    #1549102

    Toi
    Participant

    Ugh, I wrote a lengthy post pointing out all the problems (well, maybe just most) in Avi’s post, only to get an error message. No way I’m doing that all again. But, it does remind me of a maaseh with R Elya ztl. Supposedly, he was shtark being loichem feminists, specifically one awful woman in particular who was promoting beliefs antithetical to Torah values. One erev y”k or erev r”h (don’t recall) he dialed someone’s number with whom he wished to speak. Well hashgacha P kicked in, and he misdialed, reaching the very woman whose behavior he had so vigorously attacked. Now, most people would take this as providence, with the hidden message that they were to make peace with the other party. Not so R Elya; he understood that this was the yetzer hara’s plan, and resolved to strengthen his efforts, and drive this machsheifa away once and for all. The end. So while I’m certain the error message was certainly the yetzer hara trying my patience, I am so super lazy, there’s no way I’m retyping the whole long rebuttal I had attempted to post before.

    #1549216

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern, why not?

    Toi, it is a machloket between Rabbi Natan and Rabbi Meir (Horiot 13b). As we generally do not pasken like Rabbi Meir one-to-one against another Tanna it seems that either R. Elya’s yetzer hara succeeded or the storyteller’s yetzer hara succeeded (the Divrei Chaim said that if a chassid tells you he something with his own eyes maybe he once heard it).

    #1549240

    Toi
    Participant

    @avi K-

    You said:
    1. Toi, we are dealing with people who either have undergone giur or are children of those who have (the main Beta Israel aliya occurred almost forty years ago although there were aliyot before and after). The Eida does not recognize anyone outside their own little circle as being real observant Jews.

    2. I saw three hechsherim on Barkan wine: Rabbanut, Badatz Bet Yosef (established by Rav Ovadia – the Bet Yosef is machmir on the percentage of water allowed and once at a wedding RO said “shehakol” on the wine) and Chug Chatam Sofer (Chareidim, mainly Chassidim and mainly in Petach Tikva and Bnei Brak). As Barkan is sold internationally I presume that the other two are non-Israeli and thus do not appear on Israeli labels.

    3. I have already listed the kullot that come from this chumra. Scroll up.

    Here are the answers. You bet like heck I’m gonna copy this whole thing before posting in case I get another error.

    1. That is unverified; you have no idea if that’s true. Even if true, the Eida may be taking issue with the geirus performed, specifically if it wasn’t taken very seriously in the first place, as is their right. Your last statement at the end of this point is blatant motzi shem ra, and you probably just threw it in cuz you don’t like them.

    2. How is anything in this point relevant to the conversation. Rabbanut is literally a worthless hechsher, this is not a political opinion, no one in Israel who takes their judaism seriously will eat it. I dont mean chareidim, I mean anyone. My mizrachi relatives wont eat rabbanut, and ive met other mizrachis who refuse to eat it, insisting they refuse to go to hell just for politics. People coming from the USA are simply ignorant about how pathetic a hechsher rabbanut is, and fall prey to the “hebrew words=kosher” syndrome. BBY is not much better, and regarded as nearly worthless by most people. R Ovadia wanted to make a rabbanut style hechsher for sfardim, mostly for instances where rabbanut/ashkenazi kulos rendered the food unkosher for sfardim. It’s not a better hechsher, it just avoids the ashkenazi psakim that sfardim hold to be trief. Secondly, you’ve just unwittingly exposed an utter lack of knowledge on the subject of Israeli hechsherim. CS of BB and PT are two entirely different hechsherim. CSBB was better when R Vosner ztl was alive, now not as good but still decent. CSPT is awful, to quote R Berkowitz- an american, highly regarded, entirely non fanatical posek “having a CSPT hechsher on a product doesn’t make it treif.”
    3. No

    #1549241

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    ZD: You’re ignoring the reality by saying this psak will “turn people off.” Non-religious people are not going to differentiate between us “discriminating” against black Jews and Black goyim with regards to wine production; they’re just going to consider this entire halachah racist. Also, we don’t posken based off of what turns people off. What’s probably going to happen here is that massive pressure will build against the Badatz, and they won’t crack because they truly don’t care what anyone thinks; they just care about the correct halachah. The Rabbanut, on the other hand, would and has cracked in the face of PC pressure. Hence why many Chareidim respect the Badatz more.

    I don’t think the situation will affect “all Ashkenazim” as asserted above. Not many American Ashkenazim insist on a Badatz hechsher, and it seems like it’s keeping its other respectable, non-Rabbanut hechshers.

    #1549303

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Now that we have adopted the “ranking system” to determine which psak to follow, what are the criteria in scoring a gadol? What factors do we consider?

    Lomdus? Bekius? Charius? Yichus? Middos? Number of Talmidim? Number of Seforim? Followers? The number of press releases? the number of tzedaka campaigns that co-opt their picture? the number of times appears each month in Yated or Hamodia? the number of times they were mesader kiddushin? Any others? What weight is attributed to each factor?

    #1549328

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Chug Chatam Sofer has similar views with the Eida Charedus and if they don’t consider them the Jewish, I am surprised how the Chug Chatam Sofer would.

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