Can following a Chumra become a Chilul Hashem

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics Can following a Chumra become a Chilul Hashem

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 80 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1546906

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a story floating around about Barkan Winery that wanted the Eidah’s Hechsher. The Eidah told them that the Ethiopian jews who work there can no longer touch the wine because the Eidah does not consider them Jewish, However Rav Ovadiah Joseph, did hold they were jewish.

    These are Not Falash Mura who are more questionable, but rather Beta Israel, The story is floating all over and while I realize there is a machokes about the Jewishness of the Ethiopians (The Beta Israel, not the Falash Mura) it has become a Chilul Hashem

    #1546989

    Joseph
    Participant

    If they’re not Jewish then it is not a chilul Hashem.

    #1547020

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    According to Rav Ovadiah Yosef and his son Rav Yitzchak Yosef (The ciurrent Sephardic Chief Rabbi and probably the Sephardic Gadol HaDor today) , They ARE jewish

    #1547026

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    According to the eidah it’s bot a chumra it’s halacha

    #1547027

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    According to Rav Ovadiah Yosef, they are Jewish

    #1547028

    The little I know
    Participant

    Please define chilul Hashem. How it gets defined will help in this discussion.

    #1547050

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Please define chilul Hashem. How it gets defined will help in this discussion.

    You nailed it.

    Unfortunately, I think most people end up defining chillul Hashem as whatever embarrasses them.

    It may or may not coincide with actual chillul Hashem.

    #1547053

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Chilul hashem has been because the narrative has come out that these people are black and Rav Yitzchak Yosef has called it racism. At worse they are Safek Jews and not Goyim anyway, Even according to the Eidah they only need a Giyur L’Chumra (However some of the people involved already had one and were Halachically jewish)

    #1547058

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    However some of the people involved already had one and were Halachically jewish

    You can’t give a hechsher if only only some of the people who have access to the wine are Jewish.

    #1547062

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If they had a problem, they could have asked instead of moving everyone (And it could be they all were Halachically jewish..It wasnt clear).

    #1547064

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Asked? What if they would have said no?

    #1547067

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    (And it could be they all were Halachically jewish..It wasnt clear)

    I can’t believe you’re blaming them for not giving a hechsher on wine which lacks clarity as to its kashrus.

    #1547070

    Joseph
    Participant

    According to the Eidah they’re not Jewish. The Eidah follows the psakim of the Eidah not of Chacham Ovadia zt’l. The Eidah is on solid ground.

    #1547121

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    According to YWN, the Ethiopians who were removed were Shomer Shabbos

    WATCH: Eida Chareidis Removes Ethiopian Employees From Winery; Rav Yitzchak Yosef Labels Them “Racists”

    #1547105

    Avi K
    Participant

    Stam yaynam is a rabbinic prohibition and thus we are lenient with a doubt. Anyone who disagrees is a heretic (Pitchei Teshuva YD 116:10)

    As for the general question, a chumra can often lead to a kula and thus a chillul Hashem. For example, singing zemirot loudly until very late or having many guests that cause noise in the hallway late at night. Rav Yisrael Salanter railed against such people.

    #1547133

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Really the entire halachah of Yayin Nesech is racist and embarrassing, and since Chillul Hashem is more important, we should just totally stop being careful about wine and let all the goyim we want touch our wine to allow for peaceful relations and make a kiddush Hashem.

    More YCT teshuvahs coming soon.

    #1547142

    1
    Participant

    ZahavasDad The Chilul hashem has been because the narrative has come out that these people are black and Rav Yitzchak Yosef has called it racism.

    That wouldn’t mean the eidah is causing the chillul hashem. Learn what a chillul hashem and chumra are. That sounds like a political statement.

    Chillul hashem doesn’t mean pleasing the liberal media.

    #1547155

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    JosephParticipant
    According to the Eidah they’re not Jewish. The Eidah follows the psakim of the Eidah not of Chacham Ovadia zt’l. The Eidah is on solid ground.
    ———————————————–
    The aidah is the most corrupt hech$$her organisation. Just ask some “ehrlich people in the hechsher business.

    #1547156

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Yitzchak Yosef is not from YCT

    #1547341

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Re: Racism. Israeli “sephardim” have accused those of ashkenazic descent of racism for decades. As for Barkan and Badatz, this is a business decision that Barkan will make. on the one hand there is (apparantly) a business benefit to the eida hechsher, on the other hand there is the negative press, that can be bad for business too.

    I’m willing to bet, these workers undergo a geirus at a badatz beis din within 2 weeks and all will be good again.

    Nothing like “hock” to keep people busy though.

    #1547363

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The story about this mentions a case where one of the men touched the wine, and a chareidi man came over, yelling, and began smashing the bottles in front of him.
    Even if you want to be machmir, there’s a way to do it without embarrassing someone. That was definitely a chillul Hashem.

    #1547366

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    ZD:
    Yes, but Rav Yoseph doesn’t posken the way he does on this matter because he’s worried about offending sensitive, American liberals. If we poskened by political correctness, then the whole halachah of yayin nesech, bishul akum, and many other things would be thrown out as “racist.” The Rabbanut has their shittah and the Eidah has their’s.

    How we feel about a major Rabbi trying to discredit a legitimate alternate shittah in halachah with accusations of racism we should probably keep to ourselves. It’s fine to pull R. Yoseph as your source; I admire that you aren’t trying to posken for yourself as so many others in the CR, but if you posken like that, then what do you care if Barkan loses the Chareidi hechsher? It wouldn’t affect you. I won’t affect me either because Barkan is far too dry…

    #1547378

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you know anything about Rav Yosef, he does not paskin by “Political Correctness” . he has lots of Pskaks that “American Liberals” do not like. He certainly has used terms “American Liberals” did not like

    The Ethiopians generally fall under the Sephardic sphere (I think they were close to the Yeminite community) so for this matter a Sephardic Shitta is the one to follow. had this been a Russian incident, One should follow the Ashkenazic Shitta as they are Ashkenazim (At least most of them except for the Bucharians who are Sephardim).

    #1547380

    Avi K
    Participant

    Neville, I have news for you. According to some opinions much of our wine can be touched by non-Jews as pasteurization counts as cooking.

    Apushatayid, the Sephardim are mostly right n that. Both the leftists and the Ashkenazi Chareidim discriminate against tem. Very few Sephardim are accepted into Ashkenazi Chareidi yeshivot and very few have been on the Supreme Court (although Ayelet Shaked is changing things).

    #1547427

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    zahavasdad,
    So R Yosef is trying to enforce the ruling of his father on asknzin. That’s not right.

    Let them converts for real and none of this is a problem.

    PS

    The fact that they’re Shomer Shabbos means nothing if they’re not Jewish.

    #1547428

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    From the YWN article linked by ZD:

    “Three employees were reassigned in the factory to avoid insulting any one employee personally.”

    Basically, they can’t keep their standard of kashrus without the haters complaining.

    #1547429

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Avi K l, according to some, not all.

    Most chasidic certifications take issue with it. It’s questionable if modern pasteurization processes count as cooked wine.

    This is a halacha question, not a question of a chumra

    #1547472

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Screenshot_20180627_132255_2

    #1547492

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    For the record, it’s not only the Eidah.

    R. Shach, R. Eliashiv, R. Shlomo Zalman and R. Moshe all ruled that they need to undergo a full conversion – with new blood – in order to be considered Jewish.

    R. Moshe even adds that we cannot compromise on this at all.

    #1547482

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “The Ethiopians generally fall under the Sephardic sphere (I think they were close to the Yeminite community) so for this matter a Sephardic Shitta is the one to follow.”

    Those who generally rely on the eida are not sephardic, therefore….

    #1547623

    takahmamash
    Participant

    There’s nobody in the Eidah that’s as big a gadol as Rav Ovadia zt”l.

    #1547554

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There was no evidence that any of the 3 werent Jewish.

    R. Shach, R. Eliashiv, R. Shlomo Zalman and R. Moshe all ruled that they need to undergo a full conversion – with new blood – in order to be considered Jewish.

    However Rav Ovadia Yosef ruled differently, He rules they were 100% jewish

    #1547672

    Avi K
    Participant

    Rav Moshe explicitly accused those who reject the Ethiopians of racism. The Badatz wants to dance at two weddings. They say that they are safek mamazerim and have to convert. If they are safek Jews then we are lenient regarding rabbinic prohibitions. Unless of course they think that they are holier than Chazal (see my post of June 27, 2018 7:15 am).

    #1547678

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    ZD:
    I had to go back and check my post to make sure I wrote “doesn’t.” Perhaps you misread; it seems like you just rebutted by saying basically the exact same thing I said. I’m fully aware that R. Yoseph’s psak has legitimate basis and is totally independent on this incident. I will say, though, if someone starts talking along the lines of “anyone who paskens differently from me is racist,” it’s hard for me to believe that isn’t at least subconsciously influenced by the American Liberal mantra of “anyone who votes differently than me is racist.”
    As for the Ethiopians falling under the Sphardi sphere, fine. So, Ethiopians will drink the wine; I’m not clear on what that was supposed to prove. It’s the shittah of the wine-buyer that matters here.

    Avi: I think Barkan is mevushal according to all opinions. We’re obviously talking about a point in a process before it becomes mevushal, hence why the Ethiopian employees were sent to a different part of the factory.

    #1547688

    Avi K
    Participant

    I just read on the Arutz-7 Hebrew site that the CEO of Barkan says that the Badatz representatives with whom he originally negotiated also decided that non-Ethiopian Jews they don’t like are not observant enough. What if someone opens bottles on Shabbat? Will his wine also be disqualified. Maybe the Rabbinut should retaliate and disqualify someone who does not say Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut.

    #1547691

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi: That is factually incorrect about Rav Moshe.

    tm: The Eidah has multiple Gedolim bigger than Rav Ovadia.

    zd: Even Rav Ovadia ruled any Ethiopian needs to convert, otherwise they cannot be considered Jewish.

    #1547692

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    We do not rank Gadols

    #1547693

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “There’s nobody in the Eidah that’s as big a gadol as Rav Ovadia zt”l.”

    This is the “my tatty is bigger than your tatty” argument made in kindergartens everywhere. As an aside, do you think this is something NEW, that someone woke up last week and decided Rav Ovadia z’ls psak is not correct?

    #1547716

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Yosef does have the right to poskin for Sephardim and he has the right to Poskin who is a Sephardic Jew .

    #1547773

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Rav Yosef’s Psak is not binding on me as an Ashkenazic Jew. I will follow the Psak of the Ashkenazi Gedolim referenced earlier, namely, that Ethiopians should undergo Geirus L’chumrah. The fact that if they are really Jewish they would therefore be Sefaradim would have no bearing on the Psak which I should follow.

    Beis Shamai’s Psak that the child is not a Mamzer would have no relevance for members of Beis Hillel, despite the fact that the child’s family were members of Beis Shamai.

    #1548225

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    According to YWN, the Ethiopians who were removed were Shomer Shabbos

    It doesn’t matter if they keep Shabbos if they’re not Jewish…

    #1548231

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Stam yaynam is a rabbinic prohibition and thus we are lenient with a doubt.

    That does not mean you should give a hechsher.

    #1548237

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    However Rav Ovadia Yosef ruled differently, He rules they were 100% jewish

    What does that have to do with the Eidah giving their hechsher???

    #1548263

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The aidah is the most corrupt hech$$her organisation. Just ask some “ehrlich people in the hechsher business.

    That’s just stam irrelevant motzi shem ra.

    #1548280

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Neville, I have news for you. According to some opinions much of our wine can be touched by non-Jews as pasteurization counts as cooking.

    After pasteurization, not before.

    #1548304

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There’s nobody in the Eidah that’s as big a gadol as Rav Ovadia zt”l.

    Totally irrelevant. There are bigger gedolim than R’ Ovadia who were machmir.

    #1548348

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Avi K

    The link to R Moshe is explicitly referring to Ethiopian or black Jews that converted

    #1548353

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rav Moshe explicitly accused those who reject the Ethiopians of racism.

    Did you actually read the link you posted? He is explicitly talking about after giyur, which he requires.

    #1548384

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We do not rank Gadols

    Of course we do.

    #1548408

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rav Yosef does have the right to poskin for Sephardim and he has the right to Poskin who is a Sephardic Jew

    But the Eidah has no obligation whatsoever to follow that psak.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 80 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending