can i date a girl without Shadchan????????/

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  • #808673

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Are you calling a Beshow and an arranged marriage the same thing?

    #808674

    Baal Boose
    Participant

    Allow me to clarify.

    Especisally the G’mora Kiddushin issue.

    I am addressing the issue of dating without a shadchan, and not at all the issue of the bar scene. I amm talking about if a specific person is on your radar, do you need to find a ‘shadchan’ or can you go on a formal date without a shadchan. (not just hanging out)

    So here is the g’mora.

    The issue is as follows, there are 3 formal ways of kedushin

    a) Giving money/value/ring. (all the same)

    b) Giving a document written; im taking you for a wife. (no money or ring).

    3) Doing what married people do, and verbally stating; “with this act we are married”.

    In regards to the 3rd method, the g’mora states that if done without a shadchan or some other formality, (i dont recall if ‘T’noim’ are needed,) then Rav gave malkus because it is not appropriate.

    And thats the end of the story.

    #808675

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Oh really? The Gemara does not mention a Shadchan, ever! According to you, would he only get Malkus if this happened on the street? It is very clear that you did not see the many other places where the Gemara brings only one of these. It also seems like you did not see this Gemara, either. And on that basis you dismiss what others who have learned it, say?

    #808677

    Baal Boose
    Participant

    to Halevi;

    Whoa chill.

    Remind me not to get involved on this site.

    WHo twisted your knickers in a knot?

    1) I said shadchan OR some other formality, im in middle of a report and dont recall the exact procedure required.

    2) The gmora uses the terminology of “found her in the market” and did what he did. who ever thought they did it in the street/ OBVIOUSLY they moved indoors.

    3) Shadchan IS mentioned. It is ‘savlan’, and the gmora and choshen mishpat discuss the details of how much they get paid. divided into starter middle and close’r. (Does he get a save? lol)

    4) why are you gratuitously denigrating how much i did or did not learn. (YOU SAY; “I did not see any other Places, nor did i see this gmora”) Are you a talmid chochem/kollel/yeshiva bochur?

    is this where torah leads you?

    5) Finally, i did not dismiss anyone else’s learning. i merely expressed my point of view. Apparently it was too much for you.

    Have a nice life.

    #808679

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Rav gave malkus for a number of things that both Rashi and tosfos state is because of pritzus (there seems to be a machlokes exactly which instances listed would get makas mardus).

    One of the things listed is “hamikadesh blo shiduchi”. Where is dating mentioned? Mikadesh does not mean dating. in fact, dating (or sitting in or bishowing or doing whatever it is you do in your neighborhood) would satisfy the requirement of not marrying someone blo shiduchi.

    #808680

    To your question, yes you theoretically can date her like that, but it is not seen as appropriate in many circles.

    #808682

    apushatayid
    Participant

    This thread is based on a misinterpretation/misrepresentation of the gemara.

    #808683

    MichaelC
    Member

    I asked my Rav on Shabbos morning if I can date a girl without a Shadchan- he said no.

    He also said the Shadchan should not be your brother (he told a story of the Gerrer Rebba’s brother and the Gerrer Rebba ).

    He also said the Shadchan should not be your mother, farther or sister.

    #808684

    MichaelC
    Member

    I told him the exact story that occurred to me. A female (unmarried)hair dresser who came to braid my sisters hair, my mother told me to comment ‘your are doing a good job on my sister’. My mother wanted me to get friendly with her, with Daas to seduce her to marriage. I never listened to my mother ( I knew this was wrong). Now I have finally asked the Shailo I feel all my efforts were not in vain. My Rav said you should not speak to a woman like that if no Shadchan has spoken to the girl’s side (if they agree to meet you, only then can you speak to her).

    Since I have had this psak, I have decided to stop going on chat rooms and private messaging women, trying to seduce them to marriage. I will continue using my Shadchanim instead.

    #808685

    Health
    Participant

    MichaelC – I think in your case -you should listen to your Rov. You seem to have a unique case. But you should know, this isn’t the Halacha, a man can get married to a woman without having a Shaddchan inbetween!

    #808686

    MichaelC
    Member

    It could be a Minhag that you have to use a Shadchan, and it says in Talmud Yerushalmi a Minhag has precedence over Halacha.

    #808688

    Health
    Participant

    MichaelC – The only Minhag it can be is a Minhag Shtus -unless you can bring a proof from a Sefer!

    #808689

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    ItcheSrulik-

    What halachic issue is there with drinking in a bar? Assuming it’s not some kind of pritzusdike place.

    #808690

    Sam2
    Participant

    Health: A Minhag does not have to have proof from a Sefer. However, the Poskim do point out that the only Minhagim to which that Yerushalmi refers is a “Minhag Vassikim that dates back to the time of the Gemara” or earlier, if I got the quote perfect.

    #808691

    Abelleh
    Participant

    MichaelC: Did your Rav explain why you can’t?

    #808692

    Health
    Participant

    Sam – Correct. If he had a Minhag handed down -Ben Achar Ben, I wouldn’t say it was a Minhag Shtus. But the way he was talking (obviously I can’t be 100% sure) it sounds like he is a BT and I don’t think he has any Mesorah for Minhagim.

    #808693

    Nechomah
    Participant

    MichaelC, It sounds like to me like you arelooking for a halachic basis to your refusal to do what your mother said, to justify not obeying the mitzvah of kibud em, which is permissible if she tells you to do something against halacha. While I respect that, I wonder if you would want to marry a girl who “does hair nice” without knowing anything more about her. That is a lifetime decision and should have something solid on which to base it as being right. Knowing that your mother has, as you said, “an agenda”, I would try to think of a way to seriously discuss with her how you feel about shidduchim, getting married, what you are looking for in a wife and how you want to go about finding one. Maybe soften up the conversation with a box of chocolates or bouquet of flowers, or something that you know will reach her heart, like take her to a special restaurant for a meal (obviously within your budget). If she loves you, then hopefully she will respect what you want and need in this manner.

    #808696

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Since I have had this psak, have decided to stop going on chat rooms and private messaging women, trying to seduce them to marriage.”

    “MichaelC: Did your Rav explain why you can’t?”

    After reading his most recent comment, you need a reason WHY he shouldnt have a shadchan set him up? Unless seduce is a poor, unfortunate choice of words, would you want him approaching YOUR daughter? He sounds like the type of guy every father warns their daughter about.

    #808697

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    yitayningwut: See hilchos maachalei ovdei kochavim Yoreh Deah 114. It’s a harchaka to preven intermarriage.

    #808698

    MichaelC
    Member

    I just spoke on the phone to a great Rabbi.

    He told me the reason my Rav paskend you ‘need a Shadchan’.

    “many Rabbanim nowadays have established ‘fences’ and ‘decrees’* to counter the prevailing licentiousness and immoral atmosphere that pervades our society . 50 years ago these decrees and fences were not needed, for example people had black and white T.V’s, now people see it in color. If people nowadays would seduce women for marriage with no Shadchan, much worse aveiros could happen. The Rabbanim our ‘street wise’ they can see the roads ahead, and what needs to be done to counter any failure.

    I’m sorry for all misleading you that it is a Minhag, it is more of a decree and a fence.

    *see Rambam where he says in every generation the Rabbanim make ‘minhagim (customs), geziros (decrees) and siyugim (fences) and they must be obeyed, Rambam derives this from Chazal e.g. (b’yomim hahem in Sanhedrin and sugim b’shoshana in Eruvin (hedge of roses, fence to transgression)

    #808699

    Health
    Participant

    Mike – Like I posted above – “I think in your case -you should listen to your Rov. You seem to have a unique case.”

    You need a Geder.

    “But you should know, this isn’t the Halacha, a man can get married to a woman without having a Shaddchan inbetween!”

    #808700

    MichaelC
    Member

    To Health.

    I do not have a unique case, many Rabbaim are telling this to people nowadays. Maybe ‘Health’ you should ask your Rav if you should use a Shadchan or not.

    #808701

    Sam2
    Participant

    There is something very strange about this whole thread. To me it seems that someone invented a Gemara, then a Minhag, then a Geder (Din D’Rabannan) to try and push an agenda.

    #808702

    MichaelC
    Member

    Sam2, I was just conjecturing at the beginning, I wanted people to answer my question, then on Shabbos I asked my Rov, who answered my question but he gave no reason so I assumed it was a Minhag, so I spoke to another Rabbi (on Monday) who explained the reason to me, telling me it was a ‘geder’.

    My agenda was to find out the truth, now I know a person needs a Shadchan my agenda is to emphasize this fact.

    #808703

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I just spoke on the phone to a great Rabbi.”

    Did you explain to him that you are “going on chat rooms and private messaging women, trying to seduce them to marriage”? You are lucky he told you to engage a shadchan, and didnt call the police that you are harassing people.

    #808704

    cherrybim
    Participant

    MichaelC – Your Rav did not give you a psak halacha, because there is none; he gave you an eitza tova based upon his personal connection with your personality and history. The Rav may offer a differant opinion to soneone else.

    #808705

    MichaelC
    Member

    Apushatayid, in my country the police don’t convict people who are asking women for marriage in a online chat room (if they only ask the question once). Anyway I never asked women to marry me, I just asked them to date me (I was talking theoretically).

    Cherrybim, the reason Rabbaim make this Geder nowadays is probably from the Gemara in Sanhedrin that says ‘immorality is addictive’ (not in that exact Loshon), and as there is more color images in the media, the Hargalah to the aveiro (accustoming of the sin)is greater, and therefore if people nowadays just ask women to go on a date with them, both parties are more likely to sin.

    So in conclusion the Geder of using Shadchanim is said by (in my eyes) clever Rabbanim.

    #808706

    Health
    Participant

    “therefore if people nowadays just ask women to go on a date with them, both parties are more likely to sin.”

    I can understand using this argument just to date at the parents house, but if you’re going “OUT”, what’s the difference if you arranged it or the Shadchan?

    #808707

    MichaelC
    Member

    To Health:

    There is someone who both parties are culpable to. This makes them less likely to sin.

    I just came back from a Shiur, I asked the Rabbi about a Shadchan,

    He said most Charedi Rabbi’s say you need a Shadchan, most modern orthodox Rabbi’s say you do not need a Shadchan.

    #808708

    oomis
    Participant

    Hashem ultimately is our Shadchan. Yaakov Avinu did not have a formal shadchan. He met Rochel on his own at the well. If it was good enough for them, why should it not be equally appropriate for anyone who does not want to go through a shadchan? If you are uncomfortable with the idea or your rov holds that a shadchan is mandatory, then by all means you should follow your rov’s derech and ONLY go through shadchanim.

    I can see both sides of the issue, and I see no reason for disharmony. The truth is that nowadays it is on the rare side that people even meet each other in any way other than through some third party, even if it is only through being introduced at a social event. That, too, is being a shadchan, though certainly not in the classic sense. Seriously, don’t we have more pressing issues?

    #808709

    cherrybim
    Participant

    oomis1105, nice intro. Earlier, when I posted similar vignettes of our biblical history, for some reason, they was edited out.

    #808710

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “they was edited out”

    …they were edited out.

    #808711

    Sam2
    Participant

    MichaelC: To create an actual Geder you would need every major Rov on Earth to agree to it. Otherwise they can only advise their followers.

    #808712

    Health
    Participant

    MikeC -“There is someone who both parties are culpable to. This makes them less likely to sin.”

    Oh yea, of course. Just like Yoseph Hatzaddik had the image of his father appear to him. Can you just picture it, you want to sin and the image of your Shadchan (I’ll leave the description of her appearance up to your imagination.) suddenly appears and invokes the fear of G-d into you.

    I really don’t think so. If you’re the type to do Aveiros on dates, then it won’t make a difference if you were set up by a Shadchan or not!

    #808713

    MichaelC
    Member

    I’m to tired to read any of your recent post’s ( I will read them within the next few days) however I just want to say what I heard from another Rabbi today on Shadchanim.

    He said a reason we have Shadchanim nowadays is because we need a ‘middle man’ to research the other partners Chesorons (flaws), as nowadays people behave more ‘external’ to each other, the ‘internals’ are seen by a Shadchan, who can make inquiries. For example businessmen use ‘middle men to research different properties.

    This is the reason many people (who don’t use Shadchans) go on many dates nowadays and none of them work out, if only they would use a Shadchan who would find out about both parties (and see if they are compatible) and then the match would work.

    The Rabbi I spoke to said there is a main reason why Shadchans should be used nowadays which he saw in Seforim, he cannot recounts where and what, he will get back to me and quote me the reason these Sefroim give.

    This Rabbi was Chassidish and said all Chassidim nowadays use Shadchans.

    #808714

    Sam2
    Participant

    Can we close this thread please? It’s just one poster driving an agenda over and over again.

    #808715

    MichaelC
    Member

    -Sam 2, define ‘major Rov ‘

    -Health your in denial.

    -oomis1105, The verse states

    (Devarim 26:2-3).

    Rashi asks why did the verse need to

    specify that you should perform this

    available other than the kohen available to

    generation)? Rashi explains that the verse

    is teaching us that we must be satisfied

    with the spiritual leaders we have in our

    Kohen that is in your days. Says the Talmud (Rosh Hashona) you have to listen to the Rabbaim (Torah Scholars are compared to Kohanim) of your generation.

    #808716

    MichaelC
    Member

    Sam2 my agenda now is to make you all use Shadchanim, I asked the Shailo first to a major Rov of our town.

    He is a Kabbalist, he has eidetic memory, speaks every week in the main Charedi Shul, and the hall is full with his audience.

    He is a Rov of a big modern orthodox shul, and on Shabbos afternoon (in the summer) he attracts between 400-600 people from all round the community (mostly modern orthodox, men and women, he speaks on various topics every week.

    Rabbaim around the world ask him Shailos.

    I walked 45 minutes on Shabbos to hear his psak.

    I know he is right, it was not just for me, he has said it in a Shiur he gave a few years ago.

    If the moderators close these threads fine, but as long as this thread remains open and people ask questions and raise challenges I will keep replying, the Talmud says there is no end to Kiruv. Let this thread reach 1000 posts, i’m ready for it.

    #808717

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam2 my agenda now is to make you all use Shadchanim

    One of your mistakes, is that almost everyone on the forum dates exclusively through shadchanim anyway. And the ones who don’t still aren’t meeting girls in clubs, bars, and wherever else you suggested.

    But, you are still incorrect. It is not assur to date someone without a shadchan (an issur which would defy definition anyway). It simply isn’t.

    Of course any rav you asked told you it is better to try to date with a shadchan. That doesn’t mean it is assur.

    Certain behaviors, like trolling for girls in bars and clubs, are certainly inappropriate- even if not definably assur. But if you happen to meet a girl in an appropriate setting (say you are sitting next to each other on a plane from Israel and there was no other choice), it is hard to see anything wrong about dating her.

    #808718

    MichaelC
    Member

    To Popa Bar Abba my Rav said I should not speak to my sister’s hairdresser.

    I just spoke to a Rabbi, I will quote you some things he said.

    To oomis1105, Yaakov was 84, he dated without a Shadchan, Yitzchok was 40, derive from here that even a 40 year old needs a Shadchan.

    To Cherrybim: Throughout Tanach, we find people never dated without a Shadchan. Moshe Rabbeinu used Yisro as his Shadchan, Dovid Hamelech used a Shliach (messenger) with Bat Sheva, all the people who met women in Tanach used a Shadchan.

    To everyone: It says in Taanis ??? ???? ????

    ?? ??? ????

    ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???????

    ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???

    ?????

    ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????

    ?? ??? ???? ??

    There were were no happier days for Yisroel then Tubi’Av and Yom Kippur, the daughters of Yerushalayim would go out in white dresses and would dance in the vineyards and they would say ‘young man raise your eyes, ‘see what you choose for yourself’.

    The last phrase ‘see what you choose for yourself’ was said by a Shadchan. The Talmud in Kiddushin says a Am Haaeretz should go out with the Talmud Chochom when he goes on his date to see the girl for the Torah Scholar, as it is not proper for the Torah Scholar to look at the woman even when he is dating her. So either the Am Haarerz was the Shadchan of the Torah Scholar, or/and this means you cannot look at a woman on a date, although Rabbi Moshe Feinstein derives from this Gemara that a (non chassid) can look at a woman on a date.

    We see many times in the Talmud, Shadchainim were used, for example if I remember correctly ‘Mar Ravina made a match for his son with the daughter of Rava.

    The word Shadchan is used in the Gemara many times ‘leshadech bnos’ and in Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Misphat ??? ????? ????? ????? ?’ ?

    Ramah mentions a Shadchan mentioned from Talmud Bava Metzia and brought down by the Rishonim like Moderchai and Rosh .

    It also mentions Shadchan in Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim, ????? ??? ?? ?’ ?. The Beis Yosef brings it down from Talmud Shabbos.

    It mentions in Taamaie Minghagim, about 8 lines in Inyaie Ishus, about Shachanus fees.

    If you read Biographies of the Gedolim over the centuries (all the ones I read) a Shadchan was used for them.

    So all Kosher Yidden from Adom Harishon used Shadchan’s.

    After World War 2 many people were single, and older (Holocaust survivors) so the Rabbanim made Heterim for marriage without Shadchanim (when media was still in black and white). However these were not the Midos Chassidic people. The ‘holier’ Yidden even in this time with these circumstances used Shadchanim.

    Before World War 2, the people that did not use Shadchanim were not Kosher Yidden, the Kosher Yidden always used Shadchans.

    Nowadays people who don’t use Shadchans have bad marriages (very often ending in divorce, or problems with there children). Both me and this Rabbi said many of the people we know who married without Shadchans are having these problems.

    So this is why there is no mention in Halacha or Minhagim for no Shadchan’s, it is obvious!!!!! based on all the Issurim in the Gemara on talking to a woman, looking at women to derive pleasure, ect,.

    In conclusion, be a Kosher Yid, use a Shadchan!!!!!!

    #808719

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    ItcheSrulik-

    Sorry for the late response, I haven’t been around. I am aware of the halacha. Even the Mechaber would be matir to have a coke, and according the Rema regular beer is not a problem either.

    #808720

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Even the Mechaber would be matir to have a coke, and according the Rema regular beer is not a problem either.

    I like beer also.

    So if I’m holding of chanan by shaar issurim, and nat bar nat, you better believe I’m drinking beer in bars.

    #808721

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    LOL, way to go Popa. We ashkenazim finally get a break, ain’t no one gonna take it away from us!

    #808723

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    To be frankly, the kashrus of beer scares me.

    I drink it because alle essen duh, and various kashrus people I’ve spoken to are on board.

    But, really, why?

    There is no law that they can’t put other ingredients in. And I don’t think there is a labeling requirement. A certain kashrus person told us not to drink Leinenkugel’s Red because it has red coloring. How do I know that Moose Drool in Montana doesn’t have red coloring?

    As far as keilim, the craft brewers are all making flavored beers as well. Do I need to start relying on things like stam keilim einum bnai yoman, and risk the wrath of hello99 that the safek is not a rov to heter?

    I suppose we can also add in that basar is pogem beer, and most tarfus is basar (and safek ???? is muttar in chutz laaretz).

    However, recall the clams in the beer at budweiser a couple of years ago. I thought that really should have been a call to us that our beer is questionable.

    But, I like craft beer. I do. And I like drinking it. At bars. So I drink.

    #808724

    Sam2
    Participant

    This is ridiculous. How many misrepresentations of Chumash and Gemara will the mods allow before they just close this thread?

    Maybe just a couple more? -95

    #808725

    Sam2
    Participant

    I’ll be Soseir your first few proofs and leave it at that. You admit b Yaakov, why should age matter?

    There’s no proof from Yitzchok, he couldn’t leave Eretz Yisroel.

    Moshe met Yisro’s daughters on his own first.

    You really want to bring a proof from Dovid and Batsheva? Read the story again and tell me how he first saw her.

    Nowhere in the Mishnah in Ta’anis does it mention a Shadchan. P’shat is that the girls said that themselves.

    Just because you can prove that Shadchanim existed doesn’t mean that no one was ever allowed to date without them.

    #808727

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 – Don’t get yourself all worked up about this guy. Here’s a guy who goes on Jewish?? chat rooms to find girls to marry?? and whose own mother tells him to flirt with strange girls -so what do you think any Rov will tell him? It’s Mekotzeh El Kotzeh. He has to change so he has to go from end to the other!

    #808728

    MichaelC
    Member

    Ask a Charedi Rabbi if you should use a Shadchan!! I bet he will say you should

    #808729

    MichaelC
    Member

    Sam2 all your refutations I can refute.

    #808730

    MichaelC
    Member

    Dovid Hamelechs wife was destined to him from the 6 days of creations (talmud Shabbos) (so i take that proof back, as there is no need to use it).

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