Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment?

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  • #1785777

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY

    (My last comment was posted before yours)

    “yes if the punishment for stealing is worse than the punishment re a penuya then in my worldview it means hashem thinks its worse.”

    Even though that is complelty illogical, and goes against what we can see with our eyes (I dont mean literally obviously), even though you concede there ARE exceptions to your worldview. So its not like the “rule” forcing you into this logically untenable position is absolute.

    “at the end i think our positions once again are closer than we thought originally”

    I couldn’t disagree more I think your position is morally twisted., and an example of lack of critical thinking prevalent in the community I grew up in all disguised as false tzidkus (“simply because i choose to have my morals dictated to me by hkb”h rather than trying to decide myself.”)

    I was CERTAIN that by getting you to concede that there were exceptions to the general rule of judging a sin based on severity, (which wasnt easy but I persisted) , you would grant that maybe this was another exception.

    I was wrong.

    #1785794

    klugeryid
    Participant

    oh well
    ps a woman married to a cohen must leave her husband, family etc.
    thats a pretty much destroyed life
    worse than a penuyah must face

    pps if a worldview shaped by clear (to me) rayoos from multiple georahs plus an explicit rambam that another poster posted her, is warped, im proud to have such warped thinking.

    basing moral outrage by personal gut reaction leads one in 2019 to say that if you are anti gay you are a horrible person. that is clearly not hashems attitude
    we need not debate “slippery slope” “society has slipped and is already (hopefully)at the bottom.
    thats where allowing “everyone instinctivle knows this is wrong/correct leads you
    i’ll stick with trying to accept hashems opinion wether or not i understand it.
    i guess in this our positions are polar opposites

    #1785832

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is an issur cheftza and an issur gavre. If the issur is on the cheftza than unintentional is also punished, whereas shabbos that is an issur gavre, so shogag where he should have known requires to bring a chatos but misasek not.

    #1785848

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “pps if a worldview shaped by clear (to me) rayoos from multiple georahs plus an explicit rambam that another poster posted her, is warped, im proud to have such warped thinking.”

    Absolutly!
    but slow down

    I missed the raayaos. True you brought rayyos to the general principle, but that was never being debated
    Our discussion was whether it was absolute (particulary regarding bein adom lachaveiro) .I’m not even sure rayyos is the right word its an explicit gemara in several places that severity is based on onesh

    and I”m not sure what Rambam you are referring to. The Ramabm says explicitly in several places that there are exceptions

    At any rate I was under the impression that you (now) agree that there ARE exceptions.
    Just that this isnt one of them.
    Is thes last line of mine mistaken?

    “we need not debate “slippery slope””
    We definitely don’t, so thank you for not going there . Ive found that slippery slope is a last ditch argument made to support an untenable position. It can be (and has been) used to support or oppose absolutely anything on earth .

    Before leaving though, if you dont mind responding to my above questuion, just so that I have your psotion absolulty right, because it seems to be shifting a bit. (that may be my poor memory)

    Here it is again
    you agree that there ARE exceptions. to the general principle
    Just that this isnt one of them.

    correct?

    “i’ll stick with trying to accept hashems opinion wether or not i understand it.”
    Lol
    youre funny

    Before leaving though, if you dont mind responding to my above question, just so that I have your position absolulty right, because it seems to be shifting a bit. (that may be my poor memory/understanding)

    Here it is again
    you agree that there ARE exceptions. to the general principle
    Just that this isnt one of them.

    correct?

    #1785886

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “pps if a worldview shaped by clear (to me) rayoos from multiple georahs plus an explicit rambam that another poster posted her, is warped, im proud to have such warped thinking.”

    Wowah easy slow down you are confusing yourself. Or me.

    I missed any of the rayaahs you brought to your view. True you brought some raayahs that generally we judge based on severity, though I wouldn’t call them raayahs its an expliocit gemara. But that wasnt the discussion. The question was whether it was absolute.

    (I’m also not sure which poster that mentioned a Rambam you are referring to)

    and shame on you for calling a Gemara warped. If it seems warped that is your chisaron, work on understanding the Gemara/Rambam. OR submit that you dont understand it. but that doesnt make it warped

    At any rate, I was under the impression that you (now?) agree that there ARE exceptions to the general rule.

    Our dispute is if this is yet another exception or not.
    Do I have these last two lines wrong?
    “we need not debate “slippery slope” ”
    I’m glad, it isnt much of a debate. . Ive found that “slippery slope” arguments are an illogical desperate argument made in a last ditch effort to support an untenable position. It can be (and has been) used to support any and every position imaginable.
    Or put another way, slippery slope arguments are a slippery slope towards justifying absolutely anything you want to do.

    “i’ll stick with trying to accept hashems opinion wether or not i understand it.”
    Lol thanks that made me laugh (א ביטערע געלעכטער). Its totally ratzon Hashem that if Ploni rapes a penuya and olmoni tells others about it. We should view olmoni as the biggger rasha

    Before ending this wonderful discussion though. If you dont mind my summarizing just so that I have your position clear:

    You grant that there are exceptions to the general rule that severity of averia is judged by the severity of the punishment. However you do not believe rape is such an exception.

    Do I have that right?

    #1785896

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The difference between neder and shavouh is that neder is issur cheftze whereas shavuoh is issur gavre.

    #1785907

    ub
    if someone rapes An individual And as it happens
    she never knows about it and yes it is possible and she remains essentially unaffected by it
    that is inherently worse than a case of theft And as it happens
    One ruins and wiped out someone’s Financial lifestyle forever

    #1785906

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Neder is chal on shavouh but not vice versa for the above reason.

    #1785980

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq your posts are all garbled..
    Do I agree there are exceptions?
    Sure!!
    I wrote that straight out and elaborated on it and even said that that would make our positions closer than originally thought.
    Do I agree this is an exception?
    No. Why would I?
    As I said I agree it’s an exception when there is a mekor.
    A gemorah, a rishon,
    But just a gut feeling?
    Well then it’s not a rule at all.
    It just so happens to work out that most of the time your gut happens to agree that “look at that!” the sin with the worse punishment, in my infallible gut, is also the worse sin. But as soon as it doesn’t seem right to me, then I say nope! I’m this case the lighter punishment is the worse sin. That means you are really always being the arbiter of severity.
    Just most of the time your opinion and hashems judgement seem to be matching logically.
    I prefer to defer judgment to the creator.

    Is it worse to say לש”הר them to be מאנס פנויה ?
    Well I’d say yes
    I can’t prove it but how about if I shift it slightly?
    What’s worse רכילות which is really similar to לשה-‘ר or מאנס?
    ע’ספר ח”ח רכילות א-ד
    שש הנה שנא ה ושבע תועבות נפשו
    ומשלח מדהים בין אחים
    ואמרו חזל דזוהי השביעי ק מכולם

    Yes as I said before
    As bad as you feel rape is, and it is, לשה”ר is worse.
    Why does that bother you?
    Simply because we all are נכשול in לשה”ר constantly so we’ve lost our sensitivity to it.
    But In reality you know how bad it is?? It’s worse than raping a פנויה בעולה !!!!

    #1785989

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY

    “Do I agree this is an exception? No. Why would I?”

    got it thanks
    The “why would I” is very telling as is EXACTLY what I was referring to in my orignal comment.

    “Yes as I said before As bad as you feel rape is, and it is, לשה”ר is worse.
    Why does that bother you?”

    It bothers me becasue it isnt true. Ask someone who has had both done to them.

    “Simply because we all are נכשול in לשה”ר constantly so we’ve lost our sensitivity to it.”
    So if you heard of a society that was perfect in lashon harah but was nichshal in rape, that would be a better society than ours?

    and you are stuck saying to the girl who told her rapist “Take my money leave me alone”
    that she was wrong, she should have let the person be meanes her since stealing is worse.
    (Again, this is your position right?) Something that absolutely makes no sense

    This idea that you cant use your mind or senses to evaluate things is foreign to Judaism.
    The Gemara asks regarding “anaf eitz avos” if it is some other min, and syas it cant be that becasue they are posinous and has thorns and דרכיה דרכי נועם

    The Gemara does not then say, so we see that it isnt poisonous and the thorns dont hurt?
    That question would make no sense. We see that it is and they do.

    And I’m not sure what you are proving from the chofetz Chayim.
    either way it is a rayah against your narrow position.
    There he says Rechilus is worse than murder.
    Yet murder has a worse punishment

    So either it is yet another exception
    Or it isnt literal (If only it was literal, could you imagine there were only 7 things Hashem hated? things would sure be easier)

    #1785997

    bereal
    Participant

    Punishment is not vindictive. It’s meant to serve as an atonement. So how can the severity of the sin be determined by it’s punishment.
    Wouldn’t it make more sense to say that the nature of the punishment is only indicative of the nature of the exact sin, not the severity.
    Only Hashem can determine severity.

    #1786011

    klugeryid
    Participant

    And your constant focus on the feeling of the victim and society,
    Are you not aware that there are countless עולמות שנפגעים מחטא
    What goes on in this world is but a small part of the picture of what truly takes place when a person sins.

    Yes Judaism allows critical thinking. As a matter of fact it demands it.
    But thinking to understand. Not to create your own version.

    Your question from the gemarah is fundamentally flawed.
    It’s trying to figure out which species the Torah wants us to use. So it can’t be a thorn bush
    Had the torA outright said use a thorn bush though, you don’t see the gemarahs saying, nah, that can’t be. It hurts to much

    The ח”ח is not a proofagainst me.
    I agreed there are exceptions. Provided there is a good basis for it.
    A פסוק במשלי is about as good of a basis that I can ask for in my book
    I was just looking to show that לשה”ר is basically worse than a homely bunch of sins that logic and gut would instinctivly say “of course these are worse than לשה”ר how can you even think otherwise ”

    And BTW I never called a gemarahs warped.
    I quoted a gemarah
    You stated that’s a prime example of warped thinking
    To which I responded I sound to have the gemarahs warped, your call, logic

    #1786012

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Bereal
    Maybe it would make more earthly sense. But the gemarahs and rashi and others quoted throughout this thread don’t seem to agree
    So I guess it’s wrong

    #1786092

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY

    “Had the torA outright said use a thorn bush though, you don’t see the gemarahs saying, nah, that can’t be. It hurts to much”

    Oh absolutely!
    but the Torah DOESNT say stealing is worse than rape. YOU are.

    And before you say that the Torah does say it based on the rule that worse punishment = worse aveira.
    you acknowledge that the rule isnt absolute there are exceptions “I agreed there are exceptions. Provided there is a good basis for it.”

    you just don’t think there is a “good basis” to say that rape is worse than stealing. You don’t view what we all think/see is not a good basis. You are looking for a Passuk to say that it is worse. You are unwilling (or unable) to think critically and say wait, obviously it is worse.

    “A פסוק במשלי is about as good of a basis that I can ask for in my book”
    I’m not sure what you are trying to show from Mishlei?
    Absolutely! and it practically tells us that severity of an act is NOT determined based on onesh

    “I was just looking to show that לשה”ר is basically worse than a homely bunch of sins”
    So Lashon harah is worse than say chilul shabbos.
    Of the 7 avieros listed (gaiva, lying, murder, thinking evil plans, running to do evil things , testifying falsely, and causing fuights עֵינַ֣יִם רָ֭מוֹת לְשׁ֣וֹן שָׁ֑קֶר וְ֝יָדַ֗יִם שֹׁפְכ֥וֹת דָּם־נָקִֽי׃ לֵ֗ב חֹ֭רֵשׁ מַחְשְׁב֣וֹת אָ֑וֶן רַגְלַ֥יִם מְ֝מַהֲר֗וֹת לָר֥וּץ לָֽרָעָה׃ יָפִ֣יחַ כְּ֭זָבִים עֵ֣ד שָׁ֑קֶר וּמְשַׁלֵּ֥חַ מְ֝דָנִ֗ים בֵּ֣ין אַחִֽים׃. SIX! dont have an onesh in the classic sense

    Interestingly these are all bein adom lechaveiro which fits my paradigm nicely (that greater punishment = greater sin applies to bein adom lamakom)

    I’m not sure how you deal with this growing list of exceptions.
    Why doesnt the Gemara yoma (or other places the general rule is listed) ask this question?

    “I quoted a gemarah
    You stated that’s a prime example of warped thinking
    To which I responded I sound to have the gemarahs warped, your call, logic”

    I dont know what gemara you are reffering to. you dont have ANY proof on your side*. Granted, I dont have an explicit Gemara that says rape is worse than theft either . Our discussion is whether I need one.

    your argument is that without a gemara/passuk we cant know things.
    My argument is unless a Gemara/passuk etc says the oppsoite of what we see, we can (and must!) rely on our critical thinking

    * as a reminder don’t get confused. Your argument is NOT that we always follow greater punishment, as you grant there are exceptions. nor is the argument if we generally follow greater punishment, because that was never in dispute

    And if you dont mind just so I have this clear, If a single girl is being raped r”l . IT is wrong for her to let the assailant rob her instead since that would be lifnei iver causing him to do a worse aveira. correct?

    #1786222

    klugeryid
    Participant

    ubiq
    mods delete posts
    if we allow our own “critical thinking ” to decide whice are exceptions, then in essence it is always our “critical thinking “deciding which is worse.
    for its only because our c.t, doesnt call out the specific instance, that we allow the rule (which you agreed in principal to) to show us severity.
    so you really completely negated the rule entirely, supplanting your c.t. as the final arbiter of which crime is worse.
    thats a heavy responsibility which i would not want to take on

    #1786223

    klugeryid
    Participant

    additional;ly, according to your logic, the reason , possibly, that a penuya has no onesh is because its the worst
    so your hiearchy of severity goes like this
    lowest: penuya besulah\ monetary
    next: married woman/ death penalty
    worst penuyah beulah / so terrible no punishment suffices!

    sound weird to me but hey!

    #1786227

    klugeryid
    Participant

    ubiq
    when society devolves to a point where murder is permissable would you then , using your critical thinking , say eating worms is worse than murder, and this is again a case of an exception to the rule?

    #1786229

    klugeryid
    Participant

    the gemarah in sotah calls tumas haguf, “tumah kallah” and the “tumah” of a sotah “tumah chamurah”
    rashi says, thats because tumas haguf going into th bais hamikdash only gets misah biday shamayim whereas zenus of an aishes ish gets misa.
    how does that prove anything?
    maybe this is an exception?
    after all the first is defiling the bais hamikdash
    the second was consensual

    #1786420

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “mods delete posts”
    Yes, plus today was a glitchy day. thanks for powering through, and sticking with me.

    “if we allow our own “critical thinking ” to decide whice are exceptions, then in essence it is always our “critical thinking “deciding which is worse.”

    Thats a variant of slippery slope. It isnt logically compelling.

    “according to your logic, the reason , possibly, that a penuya has no onesh is because its the worst… sound weird to me but hey!”

    Oh totally sounds weird.
    But you grant that your position that theft is worse than rape is baffling to (I didnt go back to check but I believe in the first thread you indicated that while you felt this was correct, it was hard to understand)

    SO both of us are stuck with a hard to understand position, is mine so much stranger than yours?

    “when society devolves to a point where murder is permissable would you then , using your critical thinking….”
    No 2 reasons (dont get caught up on the order)
    1) We’d use our critical thinking to realize why murder is worse and that society was wrong
    2) We have the Torah to follow and the torah tells us murder is yehraog vela yaavor. so even if worms seemed worse. We are mevatel our daas to the Torah.

    #1786439

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    “T!hats a variant of slippery slope. It isnt logically compelling.”

    No not at all a variant, and it’s totally compelling.
    Here’s why
    We seemingly both agree that there exists a ” rule” that the severity of punishment indicates severity of crime. And that there are exceptions.
    If so, then,
    I believe that exceptions can only be made by the one who made the rule. So it’s really all one package. The rule and it’s exceptions are really all a single expression of the rule makers will. (I’m talking logic. This applies to human rules too)

    However, you state
    “in this case, following the rule leaves one in a moral or logical untenable position. Therefore this must be an exception to the rule ”
    That means that every time you follow the rule, it’s only because it did not land you in such a bind.
    What means in essence that each time, you evaluated the two sins, and decided, yes , since the one with the greater punishment seems to be a greater sin (or the greater sin has the greater punishment, same thing) i can follow the rule stating that greater punishment equals greater sin.
    But in reality you haven’t followed the rule at all, because you have already arrived at that conclusion yourself, before you are willing to accept that rule.

    You know who says this sevarah ?
    The Chafetz Chaim brings it, I don’t remember from who.
    He quotes
    One who says he will keep the entire Torah except one item, is a heretic. For if is no longer a slave of hashem. For everything else that he does listen to, is only because he chooses to do so.
    R Chaim shmuelevitz discusses it at length too but I don’t remember the exact place.
    (disclaimer I’m NOT calling you a heretic here for not agreeing with my take. I’m showcasing my logical deduction process from a better source than myself )
    So it’s not “slippery slope ”
    It is in itself a negation of the entire rule.
    And to the veracity of the rule in a general sense, there are many proofs, some of which have been quoted in this very thread

    #1786471

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Do you think slavery is wrong and immoral?

    #1786452

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Short version
    It’s not a “rule ” if I only listen to it when it makes sense to me

    #1786455

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Am analogy
    A water carrier is drilling a hole in his bucket
    So
    If I say “don’t do that! If you make one hole what’s to stop you from making more holes? ” that’s the slippery slope argument.

    But if I tell him “don’t do that! A bucket with a hole is not a bucket!! It can’t hold water! “that’s not slippers slope.
    That’s a position.

    Here to
    I’m stating
    If you only follow the rule when you see no objection to it, you are never following the rule
    Your following yourself mirroring the rule

    #1786453

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Question
    What’s worse shabbos or our topic?

    #1786463

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq

    “SO both of us are stuck with a hard to understand position, is mine so much stranger than yours?””
    Absolutely!!
    Your position is rating three versions of the same act
    A beulah
    A besulah
    A married lady
    Critical thinking would rate the severity in ascending order in the order I listed them as each one adds an additional negative to the equation
    A “plain “woman where you violated her
    A woman where not only did you violate her but you stole her “freshness ”
    A woman where not only did you violate her but you also violated the sanctity of a Jewish marriage.

    Whereas you have them listed
    A besulah
    A married woman
    A beulah

    How does that add up.

    #1786464

    klugeryid
    Participant

    My perplexity on the other hand is basically
    Where we are comparing two unconnected crimes.
    Emotion would dictate that crime A is much worse.
    Yet (in my understanding) the Torah seems to view crime B as the greater crime.
    OK obviously my emotions don’t agree with the clear sight of hashem.
    It’s not a logical conundrum.
    It’s a case of misplaced emotions

    #1786470

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    (sorry about the multiple posts. The mods seem to prefer many short posts)
    Your contention that you want to use to codify the situation, that the rule only applies between man and creator but not between man and his fellow man, seems bizarre to me.
    Why would /should that be so?
    If it’s a logical approach, (which I believe it is) so why should it not be applied to man to man sins as well.
    It’s not as if there are no punishments for man to man sins
    (even In our topic gay is worse than married)
    And you can’t tell me it’s because interpersonal issues have many more factors, because even we’re that to be true, so take them all in to consideration before setting the punishment.
    Why should interpersonal crimes have a random scale punishment system??

    #1786486

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “. The rule and it’s exceptions are really all a single expression of the rule makers will. ”

    ah but you are forgetting a piece.
    As we discussed in the very beginning there is also an innate sense of morality that the ribono shel olam put in the briyah. Even if He didnt command us not to kill we would still be expected not to. Moroever., even not knowing isnt an excuse. granted for beis din to kill you need hasraah, but this is by a Jew. If a goy kills he would be killed without hasraah,
    what would you tell the goy if he asked “but how was I to know killing is wrong?” ?

    Lets take this a step further. There is no lav “though shalt not rape”
    Yet you acknowledge that it is wrong, for us and for a ben noach. The entire city of shchem was killed for this aveira. but again how were they to know? what azahara did they have?

    “What means in essence that each time, you evaluated the two sins, and decided, yes , since the one with the greater punishment seems to be a greater sin (or the greater sin has the greater punishment, same thing) i can follow the rule stating that greater punishment equals greater sin.
    But in reality you haven’t followed the rule at all, because you have already arrived at that conclusion yourself, before you are willing to accept that rule.”

    not at all. I have no idea why cheilev is worse than nevilah. It isnt “logical” to me, SO when deciding which is worse, chazal tell us how to determine it. Driving on shabbos doesnt seem that terrible, so chazal say look at the onesh. But if I ask you whats worse getting hit with 1 psi of force vs 10 psi . Would you say well they are equal since both get malkos ?
    what about getting hit or having an arm cut off?
    Well, obviously hit is worse since it gets malkos, however when an arm is cut off r”l it is nosein letashlumin so there is no malkos. (the hitting in this case was not in public so no boshes, tzar was less than a shava peruta no ripui, sheves or nezek either)
    Putting aside the sheer illogicality of maintaining that hitting someone is worse than maiming them (I know yet ANTOHER exception)
    My point is the whole exercise of evaluating these aveiros in this way is strange. Is thatreall y how you think aveiros are evaluated?

    In fact, I lost track of many of the wonderful marei mekomos we both brought , did any of them weigh severity of bein adom lechaveiro based on punishment (Not agadata punishment, I mean the classic halachic punishment of misas besi din, kareis, misah bidei shomayim etc ) ? We had many many that didn’t , do we have any that do?

    If I say ” I’d rather get hit than maimed ” Does that make me a heretic ?
    Is the girl who says “please don’t rape just steal my money” a heretic because she isnt following this rule?

    (If you are saying that SHE can prefer to be robbed, but WE can’t prefer that she gt robbed, you’d have to clarfiy the difference)

    #1786534

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq you can prefer whichever you choose
    בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך ובכל מאודיך
    יש שגופו כו…

    You are viewing the crime through the eyes of the victim.
    Then yes normally rape is worse.than theft. Though I’m sure there would be those who would argue
    But who says that is correct?
    I’m suggesting that the severity of the sin is based on your action.
    The victim is an innocent bystander who gets hurt.
    Before you jump at my crazy statement, remember ,how many מאמרי חזל do you need to see, that nobody can harm anyone else unless it is decreed above that the victim should get hurt?
    (I am aware it’s a מחלקת אור החיים וכו וכו I’m working on this side of that argument. )
    So when A person wrongs another, really he gets punished for his personal part of the action. His decision to do x act. What the victim would choose is irrelevant

    Have a GREAT SHABBOS

    #1786538

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    We find:

    תלמוד בבלי מסכת יבמות דף קיט עמוד א
    אמר רב נחמן אמר רבה בר אבוה: רישא דאיסור כרת – חששו, סיפא דאיסור לאו – לא חששו. אמר רבא: מכדי הא דאורייתא והא דאורייתא, מה לי איסור כרת
    מה לי איסור לאו!

    Does Rovo hold that punishment does not matter or people transgress the lesser easier so the chazal where more choshesh on it? The fact that he indicates that they are both min haTorah seems to tells us that punishment should not matter.

    #1786547

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Whereas you have them listed A besulah A married woman A beulah”

    I provided no such list

    “Your contention that you want to use to codify the situation, that the rule only applies between man and creator but not between man and his fellow man, seems bizarre to me.
    Why would /should that be so?”

    Because it makes sense.
    If I ask you what’s worse eating cheilev or neveila, it makes sense to say well none of them seem surprised to me let’s check the general.
    On the other hand if I ask what’s worse hitting it maiming, it’s strange to say let’s look it up.

    Molech was mentioned earlier. As you know, if a person sacrifices all his children El he doesn’t get miss. I assume (correct me if I’m wrong) that this is yet another exception to the rule.
    Fine no big Kasha we already have nearly 20 explicit exceptions what’s one more (after shabbos I’ll list them).

    But, and I think this is a good one. How do you know this is an exception? Maybe it’s better to sacrifice all, and tellingly he doesn’t get Missy. (to be clear I’m not asking how we know he doesn’t get Missa I’m asking how do you know his act is worse, assuming you believe it is?

    #1786620

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    The exceptions

    Generally a worse punishment indicates a worse aveira.
    However, we have uncovered many exceptions. I.e. cases where an aveira does not have sucha severe punishment, yet it is worse than other aveiros with more severe punishments:

    (in the order we presented them over the two threads on the subject obviously some are stronger texamples than others) )
    1) Being a Zionist (very big aveira in your view but no punishment)
    2) sinas chinam (no classic onesh, yet worse thn gimmel chamuros Yoma 9b)
    3) hashcasa zera (no classic punishment yet seforim talk about how serious it is)
    4) Sacrificing all kids to Molech (doesnt carry misah , yet obviosly worse than sacrificing some )
    5) being boel goy, (no onesh, other than kanoin pogin if caught in the act)
    6) Kiruv to Erva ( is yeharog veal yaavor yet no onesh)
    7) The situation around an act makes it worse, liek stealing from poor vs rich yet onesh is the same (Shmuel 2:12)
    8) murder (is worse than chilul shabbos have to give life for murder not shabbos)
    9) Lashon harah (no earthly punishment but sichas mussar says frok the fact that it gets tzoras see it is more serious)
    10) embarrasing someone (better to jump in fire “keilu horgo”))
    11) swearing fasley (same as #9 gets tzoras)
    12) Gasos ruach (ditto)
    13) gezel (ditto)
    14) stinginess/tzaros ayin (ditto)
    15) treating bnos yisoel “kalos/lightly” (sanhedrin 75 b says better person died than talk to girl)
    16) Destroying anothers property (BK 60b according to Rashi cant destry property to save life)
    17) Nivul hames (Binyan tziyon 170 can’t take deceased’s organs to save life)
    18) עֵינַ֣יִם רָ֭מוֹת (passuk Mishlei one of the worst aveiros lists it with יָדַ֗יִם שֹׁפְכ֥וֹת דָּם־נָקִֽי yet no onesh in the classic sense )
    19) Lying (same)
    20) לֵ֗ב חֹ֭רֵשׁ מַחְשְׁב֣וֹת אָ֑וֶ (same)
    21) same
    22) פִ֣יחַ כְּ֭זָבִים עֵ֣ד שָׁ֑קֶר (same)
    23) מְשַׁלֵּ֥חַ מְ֝דָנִ֗ים בֵּ֣ין אַחִֽים (same)

    As a reminder the list of onshim to determine seveity is : Sekilah, sereifa Hereg, chenek, Kares, misha bidei shomayim malkos Rambam Avos 2:1

    #1786641

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    “not at all. I have no idea why cheilev is worse than nevilah. It isnt “logical” to me, SO when deciding which is worse, chazal tell us how to determine it. Driving on shabbos doesnt seem that terrible, so chazal say look at the onesh.”

    In essence the same as I contended, just you jumped on my phraseology.
    What you are saying is
    If I don’t think otherwise, then I’ll use the rule.
    Had your c.t. given you a Peron why nevailah is worse than cheilev,you would not utilize the rule.
    So again, you don’t have a “rule ”
    You have
    Your c. t.
    When unavailable im willing to hear what the Torah thinks.
    I prefer to view the world differently.

    #1786642

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Your contention that you provided no such list.
    True you did not write it out
    However, especially you who utilizes personal opinion,
    Would have to agree that death is worse than a couple of bucks and marriage.
    Plus you suggested that the reason a Beulah has no punishment is because it’s so bad one can’t get cleansed so “easily ”
    Now since I can’t figure out any compelling argument to make a single besulah worse than a married woman, you would be willing in this case to utilize the general rule.
    So we end up with, as I wrote, In ascending order
    Besulah
    Married
    Beulah

    That’s where utilizing you logic and system got me.
    Please feel free to point out my logical missteps

    #1786643

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Thank you for providing your list of “exceptions ”
    (as an aside, tzoras is a punishment, and according to the sichos mussar that I started this thread with, is from the most severe punishment of them all, but leaving that out won’t change my point at all)
    I’m not sure what you hope to accomplish with the list.
    You can prove to me that there are hundreds of exceptions.
    My contention was and is that the rule is for use in absence of other guidelines.
    Similar to your contention that the rule is for use in absence of “my critical thinking “providing me with a guideline.
    Just I’m saying that I can’t be the arbiter of determination, I need someone much greater than me, to state so.
    Perhaps you feel that is you.
    If I knew you were an accomplished Talmid chochom accepted by most of klal yisroel ,perhaps that would be enough.
    If I knew you were r Akiva eiger in disguise, it definitely would be enough.

    Let’s remember
    My whole contention, spelled out in the other thread, which was shut down by the mods, was that our critical thinking has been impacted by western “morals ” to the extent that we have instinctive gut reactions to things, In ways that are totally not in line with the Torahs View.
    I used the example of rape because it was similar to a question I believe you had thrown out at the time.
    I could use many other examples
    But they are not necessarily as “ubiquitous!”
    Slavery
    Abortion
    Child marriage
    Polygamy
    Racism

    #1786644

    klugeryid
    Participant

    I must clarify that last item “racism ”
    I hit submit too fast
    The Torah demands us to treat every human being civilly and with honor
    However we are the chosen nation, and that means we are better. We are בנים למלך.
    I did not mean ח”ו to suggest that one can mistreat another human being

    #1786645

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    It just occurred to me that most of those don’t prove my point.

    Most of the list are examples where a passuk/ chazal tell us that although aveira x has a lighter punishment it is worse.
    Since we have no chazal for rape I hear why you can’t apply it.

    However 2 of them #4 moilech and #21 hitting someone are examples where a aveira we know on our own to be more severe (killing all children or maiming someone) gets a lighter onesh. Chazal don’t tell us killing all children is worse (correct me if I’m wrong) but “obviously” it’s worse we know it based on seichel it doesn’t need a rayah. Ditto for maiming someone and ditto for rape

    #1786702

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Plus you suggested that the reason a Beulah has no punishment is because it’s so bad one can’t get cleansed so “easily ””

    I suggested that as a a possibility. I don’t know the reason. and that is ok.

    “Abortion”

    I’m confused according to the ranking of punishments, for a JEw to perform an abortion theres no misah, nor kareis nor malkos, theres a fine. Presumably if the woman requests it there isnt even a fine. Just so I understand yo u correctly, are you saying for a JEw to perform an abortion (at the mothers request) is less of an averia than “stealing a pen” ? (I’m not disputing the point I just find it surprising that that is your position and looks like we may have uncovered yet another exception,)

    (as an aside, tzoras is a punishment,”
    Not in this sense see the Rambam Avos 2:1 for the list that we generally follow, you’ll note tzoras isnt there)

    I am genuinely trying to understand your view. I find it fascinating

    I still have a few questions.
    2 where in my last post that went up the same time as yours .

    1) Which is a worse act sacrificing all chidren to moilech, or some, and how do you know?
    2) whcih is a worse act hitting someone in a light way (where there is no tashlumin so he gets malkos) or maiming someone (where he pays and deosnt get malkos) . and how do you know?
    3) Is a girl who says steal my money but dont rape me, over lifnei iver becasue she is causing her assailant to do a worse aveira? what about a bystander who makes the offer ? ( Ive asked this question a few times, If you asked it I missed the answer)

    #1786703

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Number four is In rashi
    i think it’s from a gemarah

    Number 21 says “same “

    #1786728

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY apologies
    my numbers got jumbled

    21 should be רַגְלַ֥יִם מְ֝מַהֲר֗וֹת לָר֥וּץ לָֽרָעָה
    24 is hitting someone (gets malkos whereas maiming someone doesnt)

    “Number four is In rashi”
    I’m sorry I’m not sure which Rashi you are referring to.
    IT is a Gemara Sanhedrin 64b if that helps .

    And again to be clear, I’m not asking why it doesnt get a more severe punishment. I’m asking how do you know it is a worse averia (assuming it is)

    Here are my current questions again for ease of reference

    1) Which is a worse act sacrificing all chidren to moilech, or some, and how do you know?
    2) whcih is a worse act hitting someone in a light way (where there is no tashlumin so he gets malkos) or maiming someone (where he pays and deosnt get malkos) . and how do you know?
    3) Is a girl who says steal my money but dont rape me, over lifnei iver because she is causing her assailant to do a worse aveira? what about a bystander who makes the offer ?

    #1786730

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Giving over all your children is worse
    It says so in the kalvachomer itself brought in rashi.
    Plus it’s not really worse. It’s multiple times the same.
    It’s like asking what’s worse? Stealing once or stealing twice.
    The stealing is the same so each time you did it again.
    There are many sources that doing the same sin multiple times is worse than doing it once.
    But even without that Just the fact that you did it again means you did it twice

    2) don’t know.
    The gemarah is not sure, expressed in many places, if hitting or payment is a worse punishment.
    Take your pick.

    3)I answered you.
    A person can save whatever is more precious to themselves with any of their other “possessions ”
    It’s not lifnaY iver. She does not want him to do any.
    Your question is better asked what if someone is threatened, either rape this girl or steal from that person.
    In which case It would seem he would have to do the rape
    I hope to never be put in that position. Call your lor for practical application

    #1786735

    klugeryid
    Participant

    When you finished your tranquilizer after my last answer, please answer me this
    Someone is threatened
    Either rape this פנויה בעולה טהורה או חלל שבת
    Which should he do?

    #1786822

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    First off I’m not sure that someone Who performs an abortion is not חייב מיתה
    The פסוקים I assume you are coming from are talking about an unintended abortion. Where he meant to hit one person and hit her

    #1786872

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Your בנין ציון is actually a proof to me
    For I have no issue with him making an exception
    But who would ever say that you should stand around and watch a person die while you could save his life By harvesting a cadaver??
    Critical thinking would of course tell you to take out the necessary organs.
    So we see that we cannot rely on our own critical thought process
    We must solely rely on guidelines given to us by our חכמים
    Whether we understand it or not

    #1786935

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Call your lor for practical application”

    I did, he is the one who says you never went to yeshiva.

    “First off I’m not sure that someone Who performs an abortion is not חייב מיתה”

    You should be. There is no shiya that I’m aware of that holds that regarding a Jew.

    Regarding #1. So if not for Rashi you would be unsure, you’d havecahava Amina that sacrificing all children is better.
    Your answer to #2 settles the conversay if your not sure whether being hit or having a leg cut off clearly we are operating in different universe s
    Your dodging the question in #3 makes me feel a little better

    Your comment regarding the Bunyan tziton is really upside down. Clearly punishment is not the some determinant. And as to your comment YES! Nailed it All other poskinm argue on the Bunyan tziton and cadaveric donations are routinely done and aren’t even halachicly controversial. Brain death on the other hand….

    #1786952

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “There are many sources that doing the same sin multiple times is worse than doing it once.”

    Again so if not for the sources you’d be unsure.
    Killing one is as bad as 10 or six million. All get the exact punishment.
    On second thought Hitler (Godwin’s law is another brilliant law of the internet, better than Poe’s law) never killed anyone. I guess his evil is overrated. Stealing a pen makes you worse than Hitler correct?

    You don’t have to answer. I’m worried you won’t find a source and will be unsure

    #1786971

    divri hayamim
    Participant

    I’m totally confused by this conversation.

    There are numerous maar mikomos that explicitly say that sometimes (these are exceptions, not the rule) punishments are not necessarily a barometer of the crime. Rishonim explicitly say this regarding naara meurasa versus a regular ashes ish (while others argue). rape will also always be classified as a gezel, Thus it was included according to the rambam in the sheva mitzvos.

    in regards to intermarriage to nidah, rav sadyah goan as quoted by the iben ezra says on lo sinaf says there are different levels of sexual avaras the lowest level is being with a unmarried woman, worse than that is to be with your wife when she is a niddah, worse than that is eshes ish, worse than that is to be with a non jew, worse than that is homosexuality, worse than that is bestiality.

    We must also never take an agada statement to lessen halacha though, which seem to be what this fight is possibly about

    Just like separating halacha from agada is antithetical to Judaism (see marahsha hakdama for small point on this), We must always remember that the birth of Christianity was taking agadah without halacha.

    #1786972

    divri hayamim
    Participant

    Abortion according to the ramba is a murder without a punishment just like killing a trepha. Remember that there was the famous machlokes with the node biyuhda over if killing a trepha is yehorag veaal yavoer, and we pasken that it is yehorag veeal yaavor.

    Based on this Menachem Ziemba paskened that when a Nazi ordered a Jewish Doctor to preform an abortion or he will be shot, that he was michuyav to give up his life because the Nazi was the rodef not the baby, and abortion is yehorag veaal yavoer. (this had nothing to do with shaas hashmad)

    #1787004

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Mahrsha says that Pharaoh picked jewish midwives hecause thet are not commanded on ibborim to be punished by beis din (only min hashomayim). The Noda Beyhuda allows to take a body part of the dead to save someone who needs it on the spot, but not for learning.

    #1787065

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Noda Beyehuda above is in Second Volume YD 210. ubiq, The Binyan Tzion quotes this and explains that there is a difference to learn for the future or save someone being here as mentioned in the above. When it comes to abortion, see Oholas Mishna, (7,7) and the Rambam Hilchas Rotzeach (1,9) about rodaf.

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