Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment?

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  • #1787170

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    This psak of the Binyon Tzion is hard to understand. If the deceased is patur from mitzvos than he is also patur from aveiros. I think that bizoyan hames is because of us. We are not being respectful to him. If a live father does thinks against the Torah, respect is not to listen to him. Similarly, the respect over here is to use the death person to save the person in front of us.

    #1787092

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq you are really stretching
    Killing a million is not worse than killing one PER EACH INDIVIDUAL KILLED . Cumulatively though the person has a larger negative account.
    The gemarahs question by Moloch was how can adding more volume of the same sin clear the sinner from punishment.
    Sorry but if you really needed me to write this out I am certain I would not want to rely on your critical thinking to decide severity of a crime

    #1787094

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Oh and BTW, the lor who wiped my yeshiva plate clean without knowing me at all,
    Is he the one who I am still waiting for sources, from, from our last thread?
    I should just take his opinion, anonymous as it is, on faith?
    CMon!
    And I don’t recall dodging any questions,
    She is not over לפני עוור
    She is entitled to save whatever is more important to her however she wants
    It’s not her issue
    But you never answered my question
    A person is threatened
    Either rape this טהורה פנויה
    Or I’ll kill you?
    Rare or חילול שבת
    Which?

    #1787098

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I have to apologize to ubiq and klugeryid as I misread the teshuvas Binyan Tzion who argues on the Noda Beyehuda forbidding doing an autopsy even if the person is around to save another life because he is exempt of all mitzvos

    #1787095

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    klugeryid checks things out for himself. The question in Binyan Tzion 170 was about learning about an illness by autopsy for other similar illnesses that might occur.. Saving an individual through transplant is OK see the above Noda Beyehudah.

    #1787282

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “Killing a million is not worse than killing one PER EACH INDIVIDUAL KILLED .”

    Hitler never killed anybody

    “The gemarahs question by Moloch was how can adding more volume of the same sin clear the sinner from punishment.”
    I’m not sure what you are adding .
    As I understnd your position currently:
    Aveiras are judged based on theri punishment, unless we have an explicit source telling us that this aveira is worse although the punishment is less (Do i have this right)

    so my question from Molech was how do you know sacrificing all children is worse, do you have a source?
    Your response was, Rashi tells us it is worse.

    This is the PERFECT example of our discussion. to me the question is crazy. Of course sacrificing all chidren is worse. Aye why doesnt it get a punishment, ok that needs a teritz.
    Your position is wow sacrificing all chidren is obviosuly not as bad, from the fact that it doesnt have punishment, aye there are exceptions. We cant lable exceptions on our own . wait never mind Rashi says all chidren is worse, so ok this is yet another exception

    “Oh and BTW, the lor who wiped my yeshiva plate clean without knowing me at all,”
    That was the kaf zehus we came up with
    the other possibility was that you never thought about/realized how severe rape was or that you did and were trying to downplay it

    “Is he the one who I am still waiting for sources, from, from our last thread?”
    no more sources, the argument hifted a bit since we started, and as things stand now “Only in today’s dor can anyone even have such a hava amina, i dont even think in sedom they would pose such a question”

    “I should just take his opinion, anonymous as it is, on faith?
    CMon!”
    no no no no of course not. I did not mean to imply that, (which is why I only posted the comment here I think youll find it funny, you probably feel the opposite) that was more for me than for you. I am having a hard time understanding how a person can have a tzad that Killing one child is worse than all, unless I can PROVE otherwise. similarly that having an arm cut off is worse than hitting. let alone outr original topic.
    I find it cathartic falling back on its not your fault
    you are one hundred percent free to argue. I did not mean to mkae some kind of argument from authority.
    I’m not sure if any rabbinic figure told you stealing was worse than rape (I hope not) if they did they are 100% wrong. I did not mean that you have to agree with me becasue of any Rabbi, let alone an anonymous one.

    #1787283

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “And I don’t recall dodging any questions, She is not over לפני עוורShe is entitled to save whatever is more important to her however she wants It’s not her issue”

    I also asked whether a bystander can say “dont rape her steal that money instead”

    “Rare or חילול שבת”
    Which?”

    Probably be oiver chilul shabbos, but I’m not sure
    chazal allowed oiver a derabanan for kavod habryos. This is at worst a derababonon, is obviosuly not melacha hatzricha legufo, and the fact that he is an oneis might make it less than that. (I just thought of this sevra and am quite proud of it, you have to admit its not bad)

    For arguments sake, lets say he should rape, ok so ?

    #1787285

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Reb eliezer
    “he question in Binyan Tzion 170 was about learning about an illness by autopsy for other similar illnesses that might occur.. ”
    You are mistaken the Binyan Tziyon argues on the Nodeh beyehuda and never allows nivul hames for pikuach nefessh (unless had permission ahead of time) . He has 3 teshuvas all in the same area. he is quite clear on this

    Yes most argue (though none make the case that the OP made, “of course killing is worse it has a worse punishment”)

    #1787319

    klugeryid
    Participant

    For arguments sake, lets say he should rape, ok so ?
    Honestly I don’t remember where I wanted to go with that question.
    I think the point was to ask you, how would you make that decision.
    Rape is a wild card.
    It has no proscribed punishment, yet according to you is an extremely severe sin.
    Were I to ask you shabbos or a “z, we all know a “z is worse and you do shabbos.
    So what about here?
    I think that’s what I wanted

    #1787288

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    What kind of חילול שבת? Beneficial to you or not? Do you need it on shabbos?

    #1787318

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq I don’t know if I typed wrong or I just wasn’t clear
    So let me state my position re the molech question. If I’m changing my stance, so be it.
    Moloch is doing the same act repeatedly.
    It’s not 2 times Moloch is worse than one so how can it be patur.
    It’s you did it once. You are chayuv, how does that disappear by doing it again.
    One does not need a source to ask the question, for you never negated the act for which you should be chayav.

    Our discussion is when comparing / contrasting two disparate acts, can one rely on their own judgement to decide which is worse.
    I still say no.
    Human nature is diverse and fallible and fickle.
    Taken Together that’s a horrible combination to be used for setting moral benchmarks.

    Yes I did go to mainstream orthodox yeshiva.
    One thing I learned is
    First “what does it say ”
    Before you discuss, understand, question,…
    Make sure you know what it does and doesn’t say. (obviously I can’t know what it doesn’t say somewhere else. I mean on the spot where you are holding. People have a tendency to fill in blanks to have the text “say “what they think it should say.

    I have, brought, and you were even in agreement with, multiple sources that the first line approach to creating the hierarchy of severity is to look at the punishment.
    Of course there are multitudes of cases where this does not hold true.
    My contention is solely that an average person is not capable of sufficiently deciding where that occurs.
    I then allowed that to lead me wherever it did.
    Another thing I learned from my main rebbe.
    If the approach is sound , don’t be afraid to accept the outcome, no matter how bizarre it may seem. (this rebbe happens to be today from the preeminent poskim in Brooklyn today, but I won’t demean him by bringing him in here to get smeared by others, so yes I’m keeping him anonymous)
    If there is a real issue with the conclusion, there will be a source to stop you.
    Of course all I have said here is talking in learning.
    I would not state it to act upon it as it’s extremely weighty responsibility and I don’t think I have the sufficient knowledge base to take that on.
    But to have to come on to saying that I never went to yeshiva in order to be able to believe that I can have such an opinion?
    The only! Thing you have brought up to directly challenge my opinion is your instinctive gut reaction.
    If I’m so far off base you should have no problem finding multiple sources stating that even though there is no punishment clearly spelled out in the Torah, you should know that this sin is terrible. More so than many many others. (I think we could both agree it’s not the number one sin).
    Yet you have not come up with a single one.

    #1787320

    klugeryid
    Participant

    I wish we could just leave voice notes

    #1787321

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Hitler is a great question.
    In דיני שמים unquestionably he is rotting permanently.
    But if you are correct that he never actually physically killed anyone, could ב”ד kill him?
    (they could lock him up and starve him to death or feed him dry oats and then water causing his stomach to bust and kill him.
    But from a strictly single issue point, would ב”ד be able to punish him for the acts of killing which his orders caused?
    I don’t think so.
    Does that make him a good person? Heaven forbid!
    But IF that’s the din then that’s the din.
    Why would that be a problem?
    It doesn’t really change anything.
    The question would become what’s worse
    Killing someone, or telling someone else to kill someone.
    Or in his case,
    What’s worse killing 6000000 people? Or ordering someone else to murder 6000000 people.
    I think it’s worse to actually kill the people.
    You think it’s worse to order someone else to do it???
    You phrased the question in an unfair way
    What’s worse killing one person, or telling someone else to kill 6000000 people.
    Because now your mixing multiple issues,
    causing the word “worse “, to take on multiple meanings that are at odds with each other.
    There is worse as in who is a bigger lowlife.
    And worse as in who actually personally did a bigger sin
    They don’t have to be the same

    #1787322

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq I’ll ask you a crazy question
    Had ימ”ש been ח”ו a Cohen.
    And if he did תשובה and your hypothetical that he never actually killed anyone, would you say he cannot דוכן ?
    Remember according to many, it’s a לאו for a Cohen to be there and not דוכן.
    I honestly would say that there is a good chance that he should.
    (I don’t really know enough about the הלכה -כהן שהרג לא ישא כפיו so I could be totally wrong)

    #1787489

    “Rape is a wild card.
    It has no proscribed punishment”
    rape is mechuyav in the monetary charges-
    nezek tzaar ripui sheves and boshes like any other permanent criminal assault eg chopping of an arm

    #1787678

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Moloch is doing the same act repeatedly.
    It’s not 2 times Moloch is worse than one so how can it be patur.”

    So tosfos sort of asks that question, (he asks why isn’t he chayiv after the first kid) tosfos answers either he only has one kid or sacrificed all at once (iirc)
    So, according to you. We have two people one has 2 kids the other has one. Both sacrificed one kid. The one who has no other kids act is not as bad (less than stealing a pen) than the one who has another. Correct?

    “One thing I learned is
    First “what does it say ”
    Before you discuss, understand, question,…
    Make sure you know what it does and doesn’t say.”

    Oh totally but if it doesn’t day otherwise you can use seichel. Yes if the Torah said rape isn’t so bad we wouldn’t have this conversation. But using our fickle minds is encourage d. We don’t need s rayah that a thorn bush is prickly.

    “but I won’t demean him by bringing him in here to get smeared by others, ”
    Don’t it’s lashon hara to mention his name.
    (Though doesn’t the fact that you don’t want him demeaned negate his thesis a bit? Who cares what people say or how bizzare the position is if right stand by it 🙂 )

    #1787679

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “If I’m so far off base you should have no problem finding multiple sources stating that even though there is no punishment clearly spelled out in the Torah, you should know that this sin is terrible”

    I provided 2 dozen such examples. Though not for this specific case.

    Hitler is a great question.
    In דיני שמים unquestionably he is rotting permanently”

    How do you know?

    “You think it’s worse to order someone else to do it???”
    No why?

    “Because now your mixing multiple issues,
    causing the word “worse “, to take on multiple meanings that are at odds with each other.
    There is worse as in who is a bigger lowlife.”

    Yes! I mentioned this point earlier in our threads

    #1787700

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Had ימ”ש been ח”ו a Cohen.
    And if he did תשובה and your hypothetical that he never actually killed anyone, would you say he cannot דוכן ?”

    It would be in beis din’s right to prevent him.

    See the Tashbetz I cited at the beginning of our discussion, that beis din can make rules as they see fit.

    “But from a strictly single issue point, would ב”ד be able to punish him for the acts of killing which his orders caused?”

    first of all yes as mentioned.
    Secondly we arent talkign baotu beis din per se.

    Lets go back to the beginning of our conversation.

    It started with this quote of yours
    “Most people I have asked this to seem to lean more to the western feelings on this topic and have a rough time accepting that the Torah doesn’t view it that way”

    Your position was (is?) since the torah doesnt give it a severe punishment it isnt so bad.
    You seem to have come around somewhat “In דיני שמים unquestionably he is rotting permanently.”
    Even though based on punishment is act isnt so bad. Something tells you that although technicly he may be able to get off in a beis din. his crime his still terrible, if not actual murder “it’s just one step below murder.”

    I dont know if you have a source that tells you this, my point is you dont need one. We all have a G-d given sense of morality. Why isnt there an onesh beis din for incitining mass murder? good question, and it needs a teiritz, (I’m sure you are aware of the whole sugya divrei harav etc) . but the fact that there is no onesh doesnt mean it is a low crime.
    If a person murders with no witnesses it isnt a lowly crime.
    If a ben sorer umorer’s parents don’t have the exact same voice his crime isnt mitigated. (or is it?)
    The Torah gives dinim how beis din and society functions. and delinates this person gets an onesh and based on techinicalitys that person doesnt.

    Lets look at motive for a moment. Beis din is not equiped to take motive into account. surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stoel to spite the poor man.
    Do I need a raaya that the rich man is worse? True I have one from Dovid Hamelech, but how did HE know, was this some sort of nevuah?
    Granted beis din treats them the same, but that doesnt mean their act was the same.

    We can take this further. whats a worse aveira, working on shabbos to feed family that is starving (not to death) or eating neveila lehachis. OF course beis din’s punishment for shabbos is far worse. but I’m pretty sure in olam haemes the mumar lehachis is far worse. Practicly this doesnt matter I cant think of a nafka mina, but the atttude changes

    you asked ““Rare or חילול שבת” Which?”
    And I gave an (excellent?) answer saying better to do chilul shabbos in that case. Clearly my answer was driven to prevent the woman from getting rape. Even if you on’t liek the specific answer, Imagine a posek trying to come up with a way to “protect” the woman. Is that a bad thing? Is that a sign of favoring western values over the Torah

    #1787728

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Don’t it’s lashon hara to mention his name.
    Why? Because you don’t agree with his convention?

    (Though doesn’t the fact that you don’t want him demeaned negate his thesis a bit? Who cares what people say or how bizzare the position is if right stand by it 🙂 )
    No. Not at all.
    If you asked him he would tell it to you straight and proud and not care.
    However he has the right to put himself in that position.
    I don’t have the right to do it to someone else.
    (another simple distinction missed by the one who wants to base halacha solely on his own critical thinking. Are you maybe starting to get the idea that your critical thinking may be fallible. And maybe just because it’s simple to you, it may be off base anyway ?
    That’s why it’s not a good idea to be koveya things based on our own logic.)

    #1787730

    klugeryid
    Participant

    So, according to you. We have two people one has 2 kids the other has one. Both sacrificed one kid. The one who has no other kids act is not as bad (less than stealing a pen) than the one who has another. Correct?
    Incorrect. We have plenty of sources to tell us otherwise. Why would I ignore all of them.
    You mean maybe to ask what would I say if the sources were not there?
    Well I’d have the same reaction as they did.
    How can it possibly be so that this is less severe than that??
    Only I would not have the ability to be koveyah that it’s not so, but rather it’s more severe so…
    Seems like I’m on the same page as the gemorah?, rishonim, et al.
    According to you what is even the question.
    Of course it’s worse. Aye why no punishment? I don’t know. Who cares
    Move on.

    Another chink in the critical thinking

    #1787731

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Or possibly to put it in more familiar words,
    How do you deal with the growing list of exceptions to the infallibility of your critical thinking?

    #1787742

    klugeryid
    Participant

    It’s time for truth
    nezek tzaar ripui sheves and boshes like any other permanent criminal assault eg chopping of an arm
    We are discussing a beulah
    As such
    There is no nezek (Gemarah)
    There is no tzar (gemarah)
    There is no ripuy (Rambam)
    There is no sheves (if not done during work time)
    There is no boshes (if it’s done in private)

    #1787755

    klugeryid
    Participant

    It’s time
    Besides
    Nobody is claiming that rape is a good thing
    The discussion is solely, is the horror that western society places on rape, the Torahs outlook or is that a western ideal.
    Your comment, would indicate that it is just an interpersonal crime, the same as any other, with the punishment judged on an individual basis, based on the standard rules of interpersonal damages. IE what applies in this case, use. What doesn’t, doesn’t.
    Ubiq feels that it’s a given that rape is from the worst things possible to do to someone else, probably short of murder.

    #1787807

    klugeryid
    Participant

    ubiq
    “I provided 2 dozen such examples. Though not for this specific case.”
    um… im asking you to find specifically in this case
    “alarm” another critical thought error! please add to growing list of exceptions to c.t.infallibility

    #1787811

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Hitler is a great question.
    In דיני שמים unquestionably he is rotting permanently”

    How do you know?

    i dont
    i assume.
    since my assumption has no practical application whatsoever, as im not involved in his judgment and they are not asking my opinion, there is nothing wrong with me having a personal opinion on the matter at hand.
    “alarm” another c.t.infallibility error! please add to growing list of exceptions

    #1787812

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Oh totally but if it doesn’t day otherwise you can use seichel. Yes if the Torah said rape isn’t so bad we wouldn’t have this conversation. But using our fickle minds is encourage d.

    We don’t need s rayah that a thorn bush is prickly.

    you probably would if you tried to base a halacha on it and i challenged you

    #1787819

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its worse to tell someone to kill 6 Million than do it yourself. If you do the murders yourself you have to look at the people in the eye before you kill them and hear them scream and see the blood

    Ordering someone else to do it means you are a coward. Himmler YMSH witnessed one massacare, threw up and then never saw anyone ever killed like that again and ordered Auschwitz to be built

    #1788053

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY

    “Are you maybe starting to get the idea that your critical thinking may be fallible. And maybe just because it’s simple to you, it may be off base anyway ?”

    Hold up of course its fallible. I’m not even sure were I implied otherwise. you see this is were I’m getting mixed messages. You say “And maybe just because it’s simple to you, ” But it isnt just me. It is everybody! Even you at times claim you agree “Nobody is claiming that rape is a good thing” So you also think it is bad. How do you know? Do you have a source?
    More to the point, do you need a source?

    “You mean maybe to ask what would I say if the sources were not there?
    Well I’d have the same reaction as they did.
    How can it possibly be so that this is less severe than that??”

    Yes! Ok we are cooking you are getting it. Sometimes things are so obvious that even in the absence of a source we know it to be true.

    “We don’t need s rayah that a thorn bush is prickly.
    you probably would if you tried to base a halacha on it and i challenged you”

    thats crazy. Aaaand I proved from a Gemara that that is not the case. when the Gemara asks how can a thorn bush be a hadas if derachea darchei noam? The Gemara DOES NOT say “prove a thorn bush is prickly” such a question would be absurd. The Gemara accepts it and moves on.

    “Of course it’s worse. Aye why no punishment? I don’t know. Who cares
    Move on”

    Who cares?!?!?!
    what on Earth are you talikgn about. Of course we care! its baffling! All with no exception who address this come up with some explanation.
    NOT ONE says eleh mai, killing one is better. such a position is impossible. IT makes no sense. It goes against all reason.

    In other words when faced with our dilemna: How can a (seemingly?) obviously worse aveira get a lighter punishment?
    EVERY SINGLE ONE who answers explains why .
    Not one , makes your conclusion, eleh mai its not so bad . Not one.

    #1788054

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    YWN seems to have been glicthy lately, I’m not sure if my you noted my last post (starting “Had ימ”ש been ח”ו a Cohen…”

    There are 2 points there that I don’t want lost:

    Lets look at motive for a moment. Beis din is not equipped to take motive into account. surely you agree the poor person who stole to feed his family did a “lower averia” than the rich person who stole to spite the poor man.
    Do I need a raaya that the rich man is worse? True I have one from Dovid Hamelech, but how did HE know, was this some sort of nevuah?
    Granted beis din treats them the same, but that doesnt mean their act was the same.

    you asked ““Rare or חילול שבת” Which?”
    And I gave an (excellent?) answer saying better to do chilul shabbos in that case. Clearly my answer was driven to prevent the woman from getting rape. Even if you don’t like the specific answer, Imagine a posek trying to come up with a way to “protect” the woman. Is that a bad thing? Is that a sign of favoring western values over the Torah?

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