Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment?

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  • #1788644

    klugeryid
    Participant

    re: shechem-see sifsay chachomim, rashi, or hachaim
    they have a view totally in line with what i wrote

    #1788702

    “We find raping an arusa is worst than an eishes ish. An arusa is sekula, but an eishes ish is chenek”.
    False
    only a na’ara besula is sekilla
    & even that’s complex

    #1788715

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    ubiq, check my previous posts about the Binyan Tzion 170 posted in the wrong order.

    #1788861

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Are you quoting something?YES PESUKIN IN CHUMASH”

    forgive me, my copy is defective. I cant find these pesukim :
    פרעה ואבימלך נענשו על לקיחת שרה בע”כ
    כמה פעמים כתוב
    אשת אברהם
    בעולת בעל
    עף פעם לא נכתב מילה על הא דלקחה לענס אותה!!! הלא דבר הוא.
    נענש על כוונתו. אבל כל הטענה היתה רק מטעם אא”

    “TRUE BUT NOT THE POINT I MADE”
    I dont know what point you are making?

    “it wasnt a case of nenas in the classical sense as far as I’m awareEXACTLY WHAT WAS DIFFERENT?”

    I never thought of it as physical force. she was forced because he was the king. Its kind of like statutory rape. while a form of rape, it isnt the same as foriceable rape. (If I was a betting man you dont view statutory rape as rape at all ) Aye the 16 year old was a “willing” participant? There is sort of an anan Sahadi that by definition a 16 year old isnt willing. If you ask people to list rapes in Tanach I dont know that many would mention Sarah, Rivkah, and Esther. although YEs they were nenas and halachicly remained muttar. From the assailants perspective they were “willing” participants. It is hard to imagine that when Esther says “until now I was forced” She meant that she was fighting Achashveirosh every night. Similarly for Sarah.

    On the other hand when it was forcible rape, the Torah is quite clear. See pilegesh bigivah. although as a pilegesh she is an eishis ish, that part is almost downplayed.

    #1788856

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Multiple of one sin is worse than single of the same sin.”

    Yes you said that and replied commanding the murder of 6 million is one sin. sacrificing five kids r”l to molech at once is one sin.
    At nay rate even if you do take this approach that you are being forced to take. SO I guess stealing $1,000,000 is worse than 1 perutah. ?

    “We don’t decide הלכה based on that.”

    I’m not talking about deciding halacha.
    Again back to the beginning. What started theis conversation was ““Most people I have asked this to seem to lean more to the western feelings on this topic and have a rough time accepting that the Torah doesn’t view it that way””

    that if someone views rape as worse than theft that was keneged Hatorah. Becuase the punihsment isnt that way.
    I have amply proved that this is not true. You even agreed that this isnt always true

    “Kings can basically do what they want. Can’t learn out from them.”
    Yes you keep saying that. but WHY? Why? did dovid declare him to death? Ive asked this over and over?
    Are yiou saying he was a king and did what he wanted with no reason?

    WHY did he say the thief was worthy of death? if all he did was stole, why death? Why ? why why?
    I dont know how to ask this any clearer.
    Yes Beis din obliviously wouldnt have killed him, that wasnt my point.

    “I asked if a rabbi actually said my question /position is so odd base even in סדום they wouldn’t say it.
    You responded by telling me the story of סדום
    ?????”

    I responded directly ““Did a rabbi really say this???” more than one.” 2 Rabbonim said similar things ( more recent one said in sedom they wouldnt ask it, Rabbi Shurkin years ago said that that was a classic sedom question, and was EXACTLY their thought process)

    BTW in case you feel that you are wasting your time here. you’ll be pleased to know I took your guidance to heart/. Yesterday someone was blocking my driveway. I was about to hit him, but was able to control myself and work on my midos and opted for the lesser aveira instead chopped of his legs Of course he doesnt think that this averia is less. but what does he know, he is tainted by western values..

    at any rate I really would like to understand how you understand Dovid Hamelech. Yes he was a king, and since we arent it has No HALCAHIC bearing. But dovid said the person who stole the ani’s sheep deserved death. WHY? Was this arbitrary? Are yo usaying dovid felt the ALL theives deserve death?
    WHY did dovid say he should get killed?

    #1788970

    klugeryid
    Participant

    ubiq
    sorry they are not pesukim
    they are the idea quoted in hebrew
    hkbh agreed to avimelech that he had pure intentions
    id consider the story of sarah & avimelech or paroh rape like any other
    he never bothered to ask her permission
    by paroh ותוקח האשה בית פרעה
    they forcibly took her. not sure what you are talking about that its not classic rape
    stautory rape is where she agrees but the law doesnt allow her agreement to stand due to any amount of extenuating circumstances (age/ inebriation…)
    why did dovid hamelech feel that way? because he felt that stealing from a pauper is worse than staeling from a rich man
    much as i would assume the same thing
    but were i to execute someone based on that id be a murderer
    a king can do what he wants
    has nothing to do with our topic
    the torah lists many types of rape with all sorts of punishments spelled out for each
    it strangely leaves one type out
    youd say thats because its so horrible its obviously worse than any of the others
    id say its because the punishments its not as bad
    i brought many proofs that the first step to analyzing the severity of a crime is from its punishmant
    i openly agree that there are numerous exceptions, however they require an unimpeachable source.
    you keep harping on the quantity of exceptions as if thats meaningful. its not.
    you can bring millions of exceptions
    as long as they are sourced its not a question on me.
    the sifsay chachomim says shechem was killed because he stole dina
    look there in the or hachaim
    avimelech was pure because as a king he had the right to take any woman he wanted much as he could take any property provided she wasnt married
    the proofs are many
    but you are not open to the possibility
    i used to feel like you but the details didnt add up
    but im the closed minded one who does not employ critical thinking
    i never got your issue with hitting vs maiming so i have no comment on that
    i think ive said all i can so i will leave the floor to you but i thank you for a very enjoyable back and forth(if only yeshiva world would post in a more timely fashion)

    #1788971

    klugeryid
    Participant

    btw
    i made posts that were much more explicit but they were not allowed to go through
    hence my posting in hebrew to keep it birmiza
    when i said its pesukim i did not mean its a quote
    i meant this is what the pesukim tell us

    #1788994

    klugeryid
    Participant

    2 Rabbonim said similar things ( more recent one said in sedom they wouldnt ask it, Rabbi Shurkin years ago said that that was a classic sedom question, and was EXACTLY their thought process)

    can you tell me what rabbi shurkin said?
    even a paraphrase is enough
    but a bit moire detail than
    rabbi shurkin said this

    #1789084

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “sorry they are not pesukim
    they are the idea quoted in hebrew”

    got it

    “why did dovid hamelech feel that way? because he felt that stealing from a pauper is worse than staeling from a rich man
    much as i would assume the same thing”

    YES YES YES!
    Nailed it!
    In other words severity is NOT determined solely based on onesh. You too agree with Dovid hamelech that stealing from a pauper is worse!

    “but were i to execute someone based on that id be a murderer”
    Yes obviously

    “has nothing to do with our topic”
    Has EVERYTHING to do with our topic. your entire premise was built on greater punihsment = greater sin. Unless we had a source telling us an exception.
    Here You now on your own that stealing from a pauper is worse , much like Dovid Hamelech knew on his own too. (Of course unilke Dovid You cant do anything about it, but that isnt my point, at the moment)

    “it strangely leaves one type out”
    Totally strange!

    “youd say thats because its so horrible its obviously worse than any of the others”
    I said that as a possibility, I’m not sure I buy it.

    “you keep harping on the quantity of exceptions as if thats meaningful. its not.”
    Of course it is, a rule with 24 exceptions isnt strictyl speaking a rule. AND the fact that this question is rarly even raised when the exceptions are raised further proves that it isnt an absolute rule.

    #1789085

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “avimelech was pure because as a king he had the right to take any woman he wanted”

    ummmm, yes, kind of waht Isaid . thus not germane to our topic much as I said. Clearly standards for a king where different, maybe it was considered an honor to be taken by the king so women “consented” like minors today. (of course Sarah didnt fall into that category but how was Avimelech to know that)

    “but im the closed minded one who does not employ critical thinking”
    I apologized for that. I was wrong. you are looking for ways to downplay an aveir, sort of a minuval “birshus HaTorah”

    “i never got your issue with hitting vs maiming so i have no comment on that”
    According to the punishment rubric laid out by the Rambam , maiming someone (money) gets less of a punishment than hitting (malkos) thus it is less of an aveira.
    My neighbor whose leg I chopped off thinks this is absurd. But according to you I did the right thing by opting for the lesser aveira.
    this is the same as your position then when ploni changed his mind and instead of stealing a pen raped someone, he did a good thing (realtivly) by not doing the worse aveira

    #1789094

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “can you tell me what rabbi shurkin said?
    even a paraphrase is enough
    but a bit moire detail than
    rabbi shurkin said this”

    I quoted earlier.
    Someone asked him Literally our discussion, if stealing gets a worse onesh than rape, does that men it is better to rape.
    He replied that this was exactly the shitas sedom. They killed people by smearing them with honey to leave them for bees, the example I mentioned before “they would all steal a shava peruta to avoid being culpable.” all ways to practice not technically deserving punishment, nonethelss they are “raim vechataim L’Hashem Meod” and worse than any “real” thief.

    Again yes, they were right, in the sense that beis din would not be able to have them each pay back the < perutah they stole. much like we cant make the man in Nosson Hanavis’ mashal pay more * , But that does not tmake their aveira less, which is what you seem to believe

    (*this is not complelty true see the Tahsbetz I mentioned at the very start of our discussion)

    #1789128

    klugeryid
    Participant

    BTW there is a fundamental difference between our discussion, vs sedom and also the question asked to rav shurkin ztvk”l there we are talking about someone who (I’m sedom is on purpose trying to do wrong in a “permitted “fashion
    His intent is to skirt the law and get away with it and they made that their life’s mission
    That’s a despicable person / society.
    Here, we both agree is forbidden.
    We are arguing on the underpinnings of that isur and it’s ramifications.
    I don’t believe that can be called “comparable and or worse than sedom”

    #1789120

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Additionally your case of king David
    In both scenarios he stole = both the same
    Plus In one he also created hardship to the victim so it’s worse
    But if I ask you which is worse breaking your window or killing your sheep, and the monetary value is the same. How would you answer that?
    Many people will have different emotions to each
    I’d say you need to look at the punishment
    If they are the same then the crime is the same
    If not then the more severe is worse

    Additionally
    Rape is mostly an emotional crime. So yes today it’s a total horror.
    But who says society always viewed it that way.
    And if society would not view it that way, it would not create such emotional pain and it would no longer be so terrible.

    #1789189

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    Imagine a priceless family heirloom, say a pictue of a Great granfather or something. Obviosuly it has zero market value. Nobody would pay a cent for a picture of some old guy .

    Are you really suggesting it is a bigger averia for me to steal 10 bucks from the guy than to destroy the picture?

    BTW
    “And if society would not view it that way, it would not create such emotional pain and it would no longer be so terrible.” this is true for most bein adom lechaveiro aveiros. hitting is only an aveira if done “derech nitzayon” acording to the Rambam, if I let then most hold it is allowed. Stealing obviosuly isnt stealing If I let. but even if you can (strongly) assume that I would let, like having you do a mitzvah with my stuff, or something nobody is makpid on, you can “steal.” I dont remember the rayah but I heard from Rabbi Reisman that if I let you tell Lashon harah about me you can
    Murder is an exception, even if a person asks to be killed, because is suffering their is an issur to kill him. ( I forgot where I saw this as explanation why the torah had to assur killing if we would know it on our own)

    #1789186

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    I’m referring to R’ Michel Shurkin, he is B”H alive and well

    “Plus In one he also created hardship to the victim so it’s worse”

    YES! Exactly. Of course Beis din can’t punish for the “hardship” but the SAME ACT can still be worse based on external factors like hardship.

    “But if I ask you which is worse breaking your window or killing your sheep, and the monetary value is the same. How would you answer that?”

    I would answer it depends on the circumstances. If the sheep was the only source of livelihood and now the guy is bankrupt obviously the sheep is worse. If the guy had thousands of sheep and a few sick ones got killed then destroying a window might be worse (I’m having a hard time coming up with a plausible scenario for the window being worse but hopefully you get my point)

    “Rape is mostly an emotional crime. So yes today it’s a total horror.”
    YES! exactly. Very emotional! probably even life changing!
    Thus much like Dovid Hamelech’s case Aveiros are NOT judged SOLELY based on punishment. The “hardship created” is factored in as well. You quoted from the sifsei chachamim that rape is a form of gezel.

    Without question the “hardship created” by rape is worse than a pen being stolen. Thus although the punishment is less (or even non existent as it would be for stealing < shava peruta) the averia is still much much worse.

    #1789245

    klugeryid
    Participant

    ubiq
    Without question the “hardship created” by rape is worse than a pen being stolen. Thus although the punishment is less (or even non existent as it would be for stealing < shava peruta) the averia is still much much worse.
    thats true in todays society
    i dont believe it is the outlook in the torah
    its not an issur to feel that way and today it must be taken into account at least in deciding if one wants to do it, but in a pristine torah only world it would not be that way
    that has been my point all along
    that we have been mushpa from western thought

    #1789266

    “Rape is mostly an emotional crime..”

    ‌are‌ ‌you‌ ‌going‌ ‌to‌ ‌acknowledge‌ ‌what‌ ‌a‌ ‌slippery‌ ‌slope‌ ‌that‌ ‌is‌

    ‌one‌ ‌random‌ ‌example‌ ‌Nazi‌ ‌criminals‌ ‌
    people‌ ‌say‌ ‌got‌ ‌to‌ ‌get‌ ‌over‌ ‌it‌
    ‌get‌ ‌over‌ ‌the‌ ‌emotion‌ ‌it’s‌ ‌time‌ ‌to‌ ‌forgive‌ ‌

    after‌ ‌all‌ ‌once‌ there’s‌ ‌no‌ ‌right‌ ‌or‌ ‌wrong‌ ‌who‌ ‌is‌ ‌to‌ ‌decide‌ ‌what’s‌ ‌right‌ ‌and‌ ‌wrong‌
    ‌the‌ ‌media‌
    ‌the‌ ‌whims‌ ‌of‌ ‌the‌ ‌public‌ ‌

    ‌So‌ ‌you’re‌ ‌willing‌ ‌to‌ ‌admit‌ ‌that‌ ‌your‌ ‌decision‌ ‌how‌ ‌you‌ ‌judge‌ ‌crime‌ ‌is‌ ‌ ‌completely‌ ‌subjective‌

    #1789275

    ” its a machloikes you and Dovid Hamelech”
    ubiquitin has an agenda and draws the Target around it
    Preposterous

    a) show source to say that it was rape it could just as easily been consensual
    b)there’s a major element that it was because it was a married woman (even with a conditional Get)
    that was issue not rape
    c) the fact that we compare it to stealing a sheep goes to show that that metaphor stealing in essence is at least as bad if not worse

    but why let facts that stand in the way

    #1789369

    Let’s please use halachic terms for some of the more sensitive parts of the discussion. Thanks.

    #1789372

    klugeryid
    Participant

    It’s time

    Your comment about ubiq ,
    Sometimes I feel that way too
    However, if my point is legit I should be able to work through it.
    It’s frustrating but that’s the game.

    #1789371

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Mod
    Good morning
    I actually tried but I usually use my phone and fighting with auto correct just got too much

    #1789378

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    IITFT
    “are‌ ‌you‌ ‌going‌ ‌to‌ ‌acknowledge‌ ‌what‌ ‌a‌ ‌slippery‌ ‌slope‌ ‌that‌ ‌is‌”

    I’m not sure who this is directed to .

    The second point was directed at me but you clearly havent read my targets ”
    I’m talkign about the mashal not the nimshal

    #1789379

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “i dont believe it is the outlook in the torah”

    when it comes to bein adom lechaveiro why would the severity of the act be determined by the Torah.?

    Just like there is no passuk that says stealing a poor man’s sheep is worse than a rich. It is something you know.
    Is it kenegged the Torah to be more outraged by a person who stole a poor man’s only sheep than one of the rich man’s dozen?
    ” The distinction between what the Troah would want in ideal world with no feelings” and the world we live in where our thoughts are perception of slight is framed by western thought is not a real division. It is one you contrived.

    Its not like well ideally the poor person wouldn’t care so much and Dovid Wouldn’t have been so strict but he caved to Western (or its equivalent) pressure.

    For example. Is there anything inherently wrong in making a certain gesture with a finger that is widely considered offensive? If someone did it to in the dor hamidbar I doubt anybody would have batted an eyelash. Yet today, I’m sure you agree making such a gesture to anybody certainly an adum chashuv is an averia . Why? Just because western society tells us that it is rude?

    Yes!

    Or going back to my last example. If I destroy a family heirloom that has no market value, do you think my act is less severe than stealing a few bucks?

    Or the example I keep giving, could it really be that maiming someone is less severe an act than hitting?

    If you say yes,In the ideal Torah world , ie based on the Torah’s outlook, hitting is more severe than maiming, destroying something a person values that cant be marketed is not that big an aveira, and stealing a poor man’s sheep is just as bad as a rich ones.
    then MAYBE I could hear your tzad.

    but that doesnt seem plauisible, the Torah was meant for people, with feelings and emotions yes beis din shel matah can’t always punish based on these external factors, but that doesnt change how severe the aveira is. . yes punishments generally are more severe for more severe acts, but this is not always true.

    “that has been my point all along that we have been mushpa from western thought”
    Of course but that isnt necessarily bad.

    (I’m gonna ignore this comment “but in a pristine torah only world it would not be that way” That in a pristine world girls shouldnt mind being ne’nas and just get over it to paraphrase IITFT’s comment that I’m not sure who it is directed against becaue I’d rather end on a high note. )

    #1789534

    klugeryid
    Participant

    that has been my point all along that we have been mushpa from western thought”
    Of course but that isnt necessarily bad.
    No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.
    Not necessarily anti torah values but not necessarily in sync with and therefore when we try using our own compass, we may end up far off.
    That was the point of my original contention.

    Additionally it’s important for another reason.
    There is intrinsic and there is situational.

    So for example, stealing has an intrinsic Negative value.
    When you steal the only food source of a pauper it’s situational negative value has gone up. The cat of stealing has not intrinsically gotten worse. But In this case you’ve done more with it.
    Sort of like a bomb
    If you detonate the same bomb in a field it will do very little damage. If you put it into a room of a building it will do a lot of damage. If you detonate it at the supporting pillar of the building, it will collapse the building.
    The bomb has not gotten more powerful, you’ve just utilized it differently.

    So to here. My point is the punishment will indicate the intrinsic severity of the crime.
    Situationally of course things will not always fall into even rows.
    For example
    A fellow needs to be מחלל שבת to save his life. So no the way he decides, might as well eat a ham sandwich that I’ve always hankered(I just love this word) for.
    He will get punished for the ham sandwich while getting rewarded for the חילול שבת .
    That doesn’t change the fact that shabbos is the more severe crime.

    #1789547

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Another נמ would be intent
    Someone swigs the end of a bottle of bourbon in your house without permission. Does he have to pay for the fact that that bottle was used at every engagement in your family for two generations and your youngest daughter was looking forward for the last ten years to have it finally finished at her upcoming engagement next week?
    Or does he have to pay for a half cup of bourbon

    #1789911

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I’m not sure what your adding with your bourbon example, it is the same as my picture example

    #1789819

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.”

    taht is “tainted” sometimes following “western values” IS a Torah value.

    “דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור”

    surely that is a quintessential torah value.

    now what determines what is “דעלך סני ” Is there an objective list in the Torah. (which is what you were originally maintaining ie hitting a person is worse than maiming is worse than stealing is worse than rape )
    Or is the severity of an act determined by society (note: not the punishment)

    Put another way imagine the following
    “ploni parked in two spaces so I hit him”
    “Omg thats crazy and uncalled for”

    next day
    “ploni parked in two spaces so I cut of his legs”
    Omg your psychotic and should be locked away”

    Is this reaction really keneged the Torah?

    would you say, oy your tainted by western values in a perfect world youd be more abhored by hitting than cutting off legs

    Im not sure how your borubon example is different than my picture example

    #1789910

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.”

    Though in this case it isnt “tainted” sometimes following “western values” IS a Torah value.

    “דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור”

    surely that is a quintessential torah value.

    now what determines what is “דעלך סני ” Is there an objective list in the Torah. (which is what you were originally maintaining ie hitting a person is worse than maiming is worse /stealing which are are worse than meanes )
    Or is the severity of an act determined by society (note: not the punishment)

    Put another way imagine the following
    “ploni parked in two spaces so I hit him”
    “Omg thats crazy and uncalled for”

    next day
    “ploni parked in two spaces so I cut of his legs”
    Omg your psychotic and should be locked away”

    Is this reaction really keneged the Torah?

    would you say, oy your tainted by western values in a perfect world youd be more abhored by hitting than cutting off legs

    #1789983

    klugeryid
    Participant

    I like bourbon
    I don’t appreciate art

    But also you were talking מזיד or so I understood
    I am pointing out שוגג

    #1789987

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I’m not sure why my other comment isnt going through it sees benign

    KY
    “No. It’s not bad per se. However it’s important to know that this is true. Because then when we think we are using our “critical thinking ” we have to realize that our thinking is tainted by non Torah values.”

    taht is “tainted” sometimes following “western values” IS a Torah value.

    “דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד זו היא כל התורה כולה ואידך פירושה הוא זיל גמור”

    surely that is a quintessential torah value.

    now what determines what is “דעלך סני ” Is there an objective list in the Torah?

    Put another way imagine the following
    “ploni parked in two spaces so I hit him”
    “wow thats uncalled for”

    next day
    “ploni parked in two spaces so I cut of his legs”
    Omg thats psychotic and you should be locked away”

    Is this reaction really keneged the Torah?

    would you say, oy your tainted by western values in a perfect world youd be more upset by hitting than cutting off legs ?

    #1791958

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Another relevant source.

    whats worse onaas mammon or onaas Devarim?

    According to your paradigm mammon is worse since it has a worse punishment.

    Yet see Kitzur 63:1
    וּגְדוֹלָה אוֹנָאַת דְּבָרִים מֵאוֹנָאַת מָמוֹן, שֶׁזֶה נִתָּן לְהִשָּׁבוֹן וְזֶה לֹא נִתָּן לְהִשָּׁבוֹן, זֶה בְּמָמוֹנוֹ וְזֶה בְּגוּפוֹ.

    Precisley BECASUE there is no ability to pay back makes it worse. and violating a body is worse than money .
    and that is regarding “mere” words. al achas kama vekama our discussion

    #1791974

    klugeryid
    Participant

    And yet the משנה ברורה In הלכות יוה”כ על ”עבירות שהתוודה עליהם שנה א יכול להתוודה בכל שנה
    Writes that on עונאת דברים once your friend forgives you, you should not be מתודהthe next year because it’s totally gone.
    So it seems like that’s the one עבירה that can be totally wiped away.
    Hard to imagine it’s from to more חמור ones
    אה גוט יאר to all

    #1791999

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Hard to imagine it’s from to more חמור ones

    And yet it is.
    Wow! the Power of teshuva. what a well timed lesson

    Gut yohr to you as well

    #1794014

    klugeryid
    Participant

    See משנה סנהדרין ט-ג
    אילו לא היתה סקילה חמורה….
    See מפרשים there

    #1794099

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY

    אִלּוּ לֹא הָיְתָה סְקִילָה חֲמוּרָה, לֹא נִתְּנָה לַמְגַדֵּף וְלָעוֹבֵד עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה

    HOW did the Chachamim know that Megadef and A”Z were worse?
    According to you we know a aveira is worse based on the punishment. Here you see the EXACT OPPOSITE. The Chachamim know that an averia is worse irrespective of its punishment!! Concluding that the punishment must be worse

    At any rate, we seem to be going backwards

    youve already agreed that there are exceptions to the general rule. Our argument is now whether we need a source for the exception.

    Eg do we need a source to tell us that maming someone is worse thann hitting, or can we say that mesvara

    #1794122

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Kugeryid, what is עונאת דברים?

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