September 15, 2022 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #2124834
ubiq: You simply assert Satmar parents can’t sent their children to Chasan Sofer, Vien, etc without explaining why they cannot. That doesn’t cut it. You simply assert a family can’t switch affiliations from Satmar to Bobov or Stolin etc without losing their community and uprooting their children, without explaining why they cannot. That doesn’t cut it.
As far as point “b”, if Satmar started providing a basic education at the elementary school level for math and reading, you think that would shut up most of the critics? Satmar NEVER provided a “public school equivalency” education, as the law demands, however many decades you go back. Doing so is absolutely against the essence of Satmar.September 15, 2022 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #2124848
eddiee > I only question anyone’s right to demand that they change the way they operate.
This is an interesting point to discuss. While, yes, school is a private business, both American law and halakha treat education differently from food. In halakha, usual competition restrictions and neighbor rights are suspended, for example – you can open a new school right new the old, and you can have kids making noise in the yard. So, when a school becomes a community institutions, they become responsible to the good of the community and have to take kids’ interests into account. So, if you feel schools are under-performing in some aspects, you should have a right to (respectfully) voice your concerns both privately and publicly and deserve to hear an answer.September 15, 2022 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #2124851
In terms of improving things, I think having very large schools is a problem, leading to low responsiveness. I am not sure why we need such. Take a small group of kids of same age, hire 1-3 teachers and have a class in a house or a shul. Next year, you go to another teacher. This is how, for example, R Ruderman and R Kamenetsky learned in Lita. They did complain about one teacher who did not respect students enough, so presumably the rest were fine.September 15, 2022 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #2124888
Ujm, a satmar chosaid will not fit into stolin. Vien and chasan sofer… they’d have a shot.September 15, 2022 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #2124948eddieeParticipant
It is true that the consumer can voice complaints to effect change. Those complaints are designed to make a store/company aware of what the consumer wants. Then it becomes a business decision as to whether or not the company wants to reconsider their decision. No one was claiming that they are entitled to have parve Stella D’oro Swiss Fudge Cookies. That Is the difference. A parent is not entitled to have a particular school change it’s educational philosophy to accommodate them. You wouldnt expect a catholic school to make accommodations for a orthodox jew who wished to attend for any reason. A parent CAN discuss their viewpoint with the school in question, and perhaps even make the school aware that most of the parent body is in full agreement. At that point the school has a right to do what they wish with that information. And so do the parents. As far as the legal aspect, I cannot discuss that. (before advocating using the law as a stick to affect change in schools, make sure that your school of choice, which I am sure is a paragon of virtue and upholding the law, is really squeaky clean.) I am certainly not advocating breaking the law, but I do believe this law is unfair, unrealistic, and subject to abuse. What about the public schools that are not up to par? are there going to be changes there too? Please don’t tell me that they are fulfilling the basic requirements, with the kind of pass/fail ratio that they have. The parent body of these primarily inner city schools have been complaining for years about this, and in practice nothing is being done to change things.September 15, 2022 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2125007
“You simply assert Satmar parents can’t sent their children to Chasan Sofer, Vien, etc without explaining why they cannot”
sorry, I thought I did with my shidusich refrence
It is the equivelent of a Lakewood famiily sending their kid to Ramaz. Ok thats probably downplaying it a bit, since in Satmar’s view the disticntion between Satmar and Chasan Sofer is far far gretaer than Lakewood’s view of the distinction between Lakewood and Ramaz.
Their family would be the one with the kid who is off, not really one of us, somethign is wrong. etc etc
“you think that would shut up most of the critics?”
I dont care about “most of the cirtics”
” A parent is not entitled to have a particular school change it’s educational philosophy to accommodate them. ”
Why on earth not? If the law is on their side OF course they do. To be clear The school of course has a right o fght back .
Say a School had an edcuational philosophy that cochlear implants look weird and give the principal the creeps so no children with them can come Would it be wrong for parents to sue? I don’t think anybody would agree with that.
Schools don’t just have carte blanche to do wha tthey please (especially if they take govt funds, regardless if the parents pay taxes too) There are laws that schools need to follow. Included in that law is not discriminating against disabled. Also included in the law is providing a basic education.
“At that point the school has a right to do what they wish with that information. ”
Of course I’m not sure what you mean. Schools have rights parents have rights . Both are true
PArents have a right to complain Schools have a right to act on or ignore those complaints. IF the two rights are in conflict then it is the courts role to weigh in .
I am certainly not advocating breaking the law, ”
You literally are period. Full stop. . Nobody claims The schools were following the law. They weren’t saying that is their right, or that they are succesful in other ways are all advocating breakign the law* you say ” but I do believe this law is unfair, unrealistic, and subject to abuse. ” Ok thats fair, guess what ? There is an avenue for that.
“What about the public schools that are not up to par?”
What about them??
” are there going to be changes there too? ”
I hope so
“Please don’t tell me that they are fulfilling the basic requirements, with the kind of pass/fail ratio that they have.”
They are trying to fullil the basic requirments
” The parent body of these primarily inner city schools have been complaining for years about this, and in practice nothing is being done to change things.”
Agreed its pretty terrible
(*To be clear I’m not big on following all laws I dont really care if people break laws with no harm/victim , but you can’t fault former students/parents for complaining that the school is breakign the law and they are worse off as a result)September 15, 2022 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #2125020
ubiq – satmar does not think that lakewood level litvishe people are modern, nor do they think that of beis hatalmud, south fallsburg, or other very yeshivishe places. But a satmar boy would be out of place in such yeshivos, mostly socially.
Vien is much closer culturally, and chasan sofer is as well. Satmar respect any austrian/hungarian group, including oberlandersSeptember 15, 2022 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2125052besalelParticipant
I think there are good arguments to be made in favor of educating our youth.
For one, it seems to me that absurd ideas generally find root in woefully uneducated societies. I think there is a pretty straight line from being severely educationally-disabled to refusing to vaccinate your children against polio, for example.
But an ignorant society also can be easily manipulated. There is a reason slaves were not permitted an education. Consider this North Carolina law from the days of slavery:
“AN ACT TO PREVENT ALL PERSONS FROM TEACHING SLAVES TO READ OR WRITE, THE USE OF FIGURES EXCEPTED
Whereas the teaching of slaves to read and write, has a tendency to excite dis-satisfaction in their minds, and to produce insurrection and rebellion, to the manifest injury of the citizens of this State:
Therefore, Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the State of North Carolina, and it is hereby enacted by the authority of the same, That any free person, who shall hereafter teach, or attempt to teach, any slave within the State to read or write, the use of figures excepted … upon conviction, shall, at the discretion of the court, if a white man or woman, be fined not less than one hundred dollars, nor more than two hundred dollars, or imprisoned; and if a free person of color, shall be fined, imprisoned, or whipped, at the discretion of the court, not exceeding thirty nine lashes, nor less than twenty lashes …”
Thomas Jefferson is credited with saying: “An educated citizenry is a vital requisite for our survival as a free people.”
The success of the Satmar business expo can be deceiving, in my opinion. According to the NYT article, there are 200,000 chasidim in NY and we know the starting point for that was the Holocaust (meaning, a very small community). Like a giant bucket of water that keeps doubling in volume every year, it takes a long time to get from the very first drop in the bucket to a quarter of the bucket being full – but it takes only two more years to go from being a quarter full to becoming completely full.
I cannot ignore the fear that we are standing today, economically, at the bucket being a quarter full and for now, there are enough jobs in our own community to employ everyone who wants to be employed. But without an education system in place, I fear that we stand at the precipice of an economic meltdown. We risk suffering a Detroit-like meltdown within the prosperity that surrounds us.
I see the chassidishe community as an upside-down pyramid with fewer money makers at the bottom point of the pyramid and a crushing weight readying itself to pile on to the top. Sticking to the Detroit analogy, one day the manufacturing plants will close and the entire city will falter.
To make matters worse, many (but concededly not most) of the money makers at the bottom point of the pyramid did get an education before it became passe.
We cannot continue this way.
Why make it near impossible for a chassidishe boy to become a CPA? Why can’t we have more chassidishe men and women (who do not leave the community) become doctors? Why can’t a bochur with a great mind find a comfortable living in the legal profession instead of stocking shelves at the minimum livable wage?
Defenders point to Europe and say “hey it worked for us there” (as if hashem allowed that story to end well for us) but the world was a far different place then and having an education was far less common among the greater society. Today, an overwhelming majority of decent jobs require (for better or for worse) and degree and/or a basic education (and they are not the same thing). This is especially true in the Northeast US.
And I have a sneaky feeling that if given a choice between two schools identical in social acceptance, hashkufa and Torah, one with a secular education option and one without, there would be droves of parents (and eventually most) that would choose to educate their children. But today, parents have to sacrifice either Torah, hashkufa or social standing in order to educate their children. It is a real shame and I pray that Hashem helps us as a society see the nolad before it comes crashing down on our heads.September 15, 2022 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2125097
agreed, its Less than modern (meaning less than you view modern, and we all know how that is) .
Apolagies if I indicated that I was unsure on this point.
I have their brochure discouraging people attending the Siyum hashas. Sure there are deeper disagreements there regardi nghre Aguda, that are more historic than anything. But the bottom line is its pretty clear. So it is in writing, and of course I grew up next door (literally) to Satmerer chasidim
Again this is all a side issue. As you correctly note these arent all interchangeable, and going to a different school is not easy.
Is it very hard? (I think so, border line impossible), you want to argue iI’m exageraitng and it is s it only a little hard. Ok fine why should they have to make a hard change even if its a little hard to educate their kids in the way they (and the law) sees fitSeptember 15, 2022 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #2125106Avram in MDParticipant
“Are we ok with the state of education in our yeshivos?”
This and your subsequent questions would seem to be better answered by the parents of yeshiva students regarding their specific yeshiva than a nebulous “we” regarding nebulous “yeshivos”. Part of having an adult conversation about a topic is avoiding unhelpful generalizations. The quality of education offered in a yeshiva depends on the yeshiva, and that’s not a brand new issue that cropped up in this generation. And that’s not what the NYT article was attacking: yeshivos that opt to minimize secular studies by design.September 15, 2022 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #2125112
ubiq’s grossly misinformed view of how Satmar views non-Satmar Shomrei Torah uMitzvos Yidden is a parody of how some five and six year old children might think.September 15, 2022 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #2125117eddieeParticipant
First of all I am NOT advocating breaking the law. I all my comments are in a scenario that there is no law. (The complaints that started this issue, purportedly are that the schools failed some individuals, and therefor they are complaining. They are using the law which does exist to get back at the school, and l to give them the benefit of the doubt, to help the next generation of students. Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with upholding the law. It is about using the law to get what they want.) I do feel that the laws are ridiculous, but if there is a parent who is so law abiding that they cannot handle seeing anything being done that is not following the law, such as double parking on 13th Ave erev shabbos, or “feeding the meter” and parking longer than the allotted 2 hrs that the sign says, then perhaps you are right. But please understand, there has been an understanding between the NYS DOE and the Yeshivos that as long as the children are in school, off the streets and getting some kind of formal education, there will be a “don’t ask don’t tell” (sorry for the term)policy. It is only now that people are making noise, that this issue is coming out. Sort of like double parking on alternate side of the street days. There is no law that says that it is ok, just an understanding that allows it to go on for practical reasons.
I would also like to clarify: When I refer to having a right, I don’t mean the legal right, I mean a moral right. If someone blocks your driveway for an emergency, you have a legal right to have him ticketed, but one would question your moral right. In my opinion, the same with a school. You may have a legal right to register a complaint, I won’t venture an opinion on the Halachic right to report to the govt as I am not a halachic authority, but in my opinion,given the options in schooling, no moral right.September 15, 2022 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2125151
“First of all I am NOT advocating breaking the law. I all my comments are in a scenario that there is no law.”
Then your comments are in the wrong thread
“Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with upholding the law. It is about using the law to get what they want.”
I don’t know what this means.
The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math/English. Satmar does not. Therefore Satmar is violating the law. You cant blame parents for wanting their school to educate their cildren as required by law.
Arguing that Satmar has the right to not educate the children, is arguing that they dont have to follow the law.
I’m not sure why this is complicated.
Of course it has nothing to do with some virtuos “upholding of the law” I specifically said so.
you can argue that, I have no problem with that. Satmar is against education they want to prevent kids from getting education I completely get that. But be clear with what you are defending .
“the same with a school. You may have a legal right to register a complaint, I won’t venture an opinion on the Halachic right to report to the govt as I am not a halachic authority, but in my opinion,given the options in schooling, no moral right.”
would you say the same for suing a school that refuses to install a ramp/elevator for a child in a wheelchair? (Like you setting aside very real halachic concerns, or “suing” in beis din) does a parent have a moral right to demand their child get access to school or should they just choose another school?
HalevaiSeptember 15, 2022 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #2125156
> and going to a different school is not easy.
This is the problem. We need to have competition between schools or teachers. It is _literally_ the halakha.
It is business 101 for competitors to create differing products instead of competing on price. This works well for products you can not easily evaluate. So, if a mattress company creates a “unique” mattress (mostly by having a unique product name), they win. If consumers or government force a standard (such as USB, where U stands for Universal), then you can suddenly pay $1 for a disk that was previously $50 when each disk had a unique interface.
So, if we can several yeshivas, or just teachers, teaching stam Chumash and Gemorah and compete with each other, all Yidden will benefit.September 15, 2022 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #2125158
> such as double parking on 13th Ave erev shabbos
R Avigdor Miller says that when Moschiach comes, beis din will punish double-parking with malkos! If you think this is extreme, this is a bad sign. Maybe you need to go back, learn some seforim until you align your thinking with the gadol. That is, I don’t think you might be lacking stam in halochos of sakono, I am sure you know what happens on the street, so there is a bigger hashkofo problem here.September 15, 2022 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #2125243
ubiq wrote: “The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math/English. Satmar does not. Therefore Satmar is violating the law. You cant blame parents for wanting their school to educate their cildren as required by law.
Arguing that Satmar has the right to not educate the children, is arguing that they dont have to follow the law.”
Let’s correct ubiq, as what ubiq should be writing is thus:
The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math, English, gym, music, arts and sex education. Satmar, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidim Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov’s do not. Therefore Satmar, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidi Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov are violating the law. You cant blame Chareidi parents for wanting their school to educate their children in sex education and all the other PUBLIC SCHOOL EQUIVALENCY as required by New York law.
Arguing that Satmar, Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidi Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov have the right to not educate the children with public school equivalency as required by the law, including sex education, gym, music and arts is arguing that they don’t have to follow the law.
FTFYSeptember 15, 2022 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #2125254
I think some of you have perverse view of what is going in public schools, focusing on the most outrageous aspects. Not saying that the outrageous parts are not dangereous, but still. Just a random day today: high school world history, teaches various MidEastern cultures, including “ancient Israelites”, with their Torah being one of the influences on modern civilization. A table of 10 commandment confuses my kid: why do they say “4 commandments” about religion and 6 about society, when it should be 5 and 5!? So, turns out the chachamim took Catholic version of 10 comm – skipping first one, and dividing 10th into things and wife separately. So, we learned about that, pondered whether it is good or bad for non-Jews to know 10 comm, noticed that Shabbat became “day of rest” in English, losing connotation to a specific day of the week, etc. Plus couple of Naviim that were relevant to history. Granted, not every school day is a Jewish history day, and trains still need to get from A to B on most days.September 15, 2022 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #2125257
At least they aren’t learning any chumrosSeptember 16, 2022 12:20 am at 12:20 am #2125263
We actually learned a chumra today – everyone is talking about the NYT “investigation” and we related that to Moris Ayn and how anything Jews do “can and will be used against us” (something I learned from my grandparents based on their old world experiences) and that we should be erliche and yashar in what we are doing. What chumras did your kids/grandkids learn today?!September 16, 2022 12:24 am at 12:24 am #2125267
They learned whatever chumros the basis Yaakov and yeshiva system deemed worthy, as they are still attending. You chose to avoid that even if it means your child learns updated versions of the 10 commandments etc. That was your preference, not sure why you try turning the question back at me.September 16, 2022 1:13 am at 1:13 am #2125281
What do you mean, you don’t know what they learned today? Hope not. Please share.
Maybe I was no clear why I brought this example. The chol subjects are not a substitute for kodesh. What I wanted to illustrate that these subjects are not all shtuyot. They open a way for a different discussion. The kid himself flagged the issue, we discussed that, he is not going to confuse aseres hadibros with the school version, but he now understands how the world sees it, how they transferred some Torah values into modern “weekend”, how they lost part of meaning because they do not know the Hebrew original.
Of course, if this would be done outside of supervision, the results will be negative. For example, some of my kids had pretty liberal chol teachers, who blew up over Trump and probably wasted some of the class time on that. I don’t think they affected the kids, as the kids were making fun of them, probably not to their face, but it could have happened, I presume.September 16, 2022 1:19 am at 1:19 am #2125288
You said you pulled them out because they were being taught chumros that put their own parents observance in question. Now you tell us what they are exposed to instead. My point was, I hope you’re happy. Or rather that I’m sorry you are.September 16, 2022 1:20 am at 1:20 am #2125289
I , on the other hand, encourage these chumros. So the question for me isn’t what chumros they learned, but rather what Christian distortions they didn’t learn.September 16, 2022 8:12 am at 8:12 am #2125303
You don’t get to define equivalency. The law defines it if yiu offer regents yiu are in the clear.
Definitely of the new law see section 130.3 second bullet point.
(An elementary school attached to a high schol thst offers regents is considered equivalent)
Thus of the schools you listed Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidim Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov’s Are substantially equivalent. And Chaim Berlin, Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, Yeshiva Darchei Torah and virtually every Litvish, Chasidish and Chareidi Yeshivos and Beis Yaakov are not violating the law.
The more you knowSeptember 16, 2022 8:23 am at 8:23 am #2125304
And for the record If your rewritten paragraph was correct (it’s not) I’m not sure what it adds or changesSeptember 16, 2022 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #2125421
> they were being taught chumros that put their own parents observance in question
Adam taught Hava a chumra as halakha and now we need to work for a living … I learn with a number of Rabonim yasharim who do, and teach, chumros and I have no problem learning from them. So, teaching Torah in a way that distorts halakha and middos may be done out of good intentions and even a great need to keep people committed to Yidishkeit, it is just not my family mesorah. Mine is closer to what CT described here before. I may be too pushy here for this approach, as I feel there are people who will benefit from it if they were aware of such derech. Not dismissing that some people will benefit from a more closed approach.September 16, 2022 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #2125478
Let’s go back to the actual conversation again. You have lots of exciting rationalizations not to want chumros, the point we were actually discussing is that you are happier with your kid’s exposure to this other stuff than learning “too much religion”.
it is just not my family mesorah. Mine is closer to what CT described here before
Is this really a family mesorah or just what you picked? If you have a derech other than just doing what isn’t too restrictive and annoying then that would be something. But you seem to just be following what works for you. You will align with people regardless of their appropriate adherence to halacha as long as they have a foot in academia. You run to the way that is more accepting even if it means putting Torah second (or third even). That isn’t a derech. That is a comfort zone. A rationalization. A recipe for a disasterous future ch”v. You may be unaware that you have made the same distortions of halacha and middos but in a different direction. At least be honest with yourself.September 16, 2022 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #2125480
ubiq, do you make up bubbe maaisas as you go along and call them the facts, to fit and attempt to support and shore up your mistaken notions and incorrect assertions? Your 8:12am post (#2125303) takes the cake as your most inventive. (For this thread; over the years in other threads you’ve gone even further.)
1. Public school equivalency is NOT defined by offering the Regents. Nothing in the equivalency law says a blasted thing about the Regents or offering any State standardized testing for that matter.
2. What the Board of Regents voted on earlier this week are REGULATIONS, *NOT*’ the LAW. FYI — laws are only enacted by the legislature, no one else in NYS.
3. The NYS law mandates private schools must teach equivalent to what the public schools teach. As simple as that. The law makes NO DISTINCTION between math, arts, English, gym, science or sex education.
4. Even those new regulations voted on this week are NOT effective yet. It has a future effective date. As of today nothing changed regarding the public school equivalency law than what has been on the NYS law books for over the last 100 plus years.
5. The new regulations, even when they become effective, do not change the law. It merely instructs the multiple local Education Departments in the various municipalities across the State on how to enforce the law.
6. The regulations stipulate that ONE OF the methods a school can demonstrate public school equivalency is by administrating the Regents exams to their students; and IF sufficient numbers pass the Regents that will demonstrate the school is compliant for public school equivalency in those subjects that sufficient students passed the exam.
7. The new regulations also give alternative options for private schools to demonstrate public school equivalency compliance without giving the Regents. No private school is required to give their students the Regents or any other standardized tests. This has been the case until now and will remain so even with the new regulations.
To repeat and reiterate, NYS Education Law Section 3204(2) requires private schools provide full public school equivalency. There is NO DISTINCTION under the law between math, English, science, music, arts or sex education. Satmar’s deficiency in English is the same non-compliance as is Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim’s deficiency in teaching sex education that’s offered in public school. Rachmitsrivka’s deficiency in teaching science is just as bad under the law as Yeshiva Darchei Torah’s deficiency in teaching arts and music.
No Yeshiva or Beis Yaakov in the entire State of New York is compliant (possibly excluding Modern Orthodox schools like Ramaz and Yeshiva of Flatbush), as their are much objectionable material from the public school, both in content and time, that it is impossible for a Torah school to be in compliance with the public school equivalency law.
P.S. My advance apologies for my strong words; you’ve done this too many times to point them out again with a poker face and neutral voice. You’re still my brother and I say all this with brotherly love.September 16, 2022 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #2125486
“ubiq, do you make up bubbe maaisas as you go along and call them the facts, to fit and attempt to support”
nope, I’m not the one who distorted R’ Moshe’s opinion on Bas Mitzvahs That was a dear friend of mine, you may know him.
1) “Public school equivalency is NOT defined by offering the Regents”
It is Here is a verbatim quote from NYSED website
“The proposed regulation allows non-public schools to choose from various pathways to demonstrate that they provide substantially equivalent instruction to students, as required by law. Any of the state’s more than 1,800 nonpublic schools will be able to demonstrate their substantial equivalency of instruction through one of the following pathways: … It is a high school registered by the Board of Regents (grades 1 through 8 of a nonpublic school that has a registered high school program will also be deemed substantially equivalent by virtue of the school’s high school registration);”
That is a verbatim quote
This was accepted as a far as I know.
If you are saying this new recommend regulation is weaker than the current one, I’m skeptical and would like to see that in writing
And it is odd that we weren’t lobbying for acceptance of this new less restrictive defitnion.
You said “The law requires Elementary schools teach (at least) math, English, gym, music, arts and sex education” By all means share it, I cant find this law *
“Even those new regulations voted on this week are NOT effective yet. It has a future effective date. As of today nothing changed regarding the public school equivalency law”
Great So we should push for acceptance!
Not sure what pounts 6- 7 add or detract from my point
“To repeat and reiterate, NYS Education Law Section 3204(2) requires private schools provide full public school equivalency. There is NO DISTINCTION under the law between math, English, science, music, arts or sex education.”
You are (deliberately?) distorting the law it does not say ” full public school equivalency” In fact, it practically says he opposite “Substantially equivalent” music does not appear there at all “hygiene” does but the law says ” a pupil may, consistent with the requirements of public education and public
health, be excused from such study of health and hygiene as conflicts with the religion of his parents or guardian”
IS there a different law you are reffering to?
“No Yeshiva or Beis Yaakov in the entire State of New York is compliant”
Again, even if that is true (it isn’t) , so what?
So they aren’t compliannt. whats the problem. I have no problem with lack of compliance .
” My advance apologies for my strong words”
no apology necessary I know it is out of love
*It was proposed in 2019 thank to Some taking advantage and ruining chinuch for alll of us. but B”H it was rejected by courtSeptember 16, 2022 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #2125487
Syag > we were actually discussing is that you are happier with your kid’s exposure to this other stuff than learning “too much religion”.
This is not what I am trying to say. I am responding to people who say that exposure to public ed is all about inappropriate behaviors and bad ideas. I am giving you an example of what one can learn from it. I am not saying it is harmless, just giving people ideas of what it really is.
> Is this really a family mesorah or just what you picked?
It is. Both my wife and I have several generations of people with medical/engineering/business experience; some Jewishly educated well, some less, depending on place & time. This is not about philosophy of combining Torah and Derech Eretz/Maddah, etc, it is simply a way of applying oneself in a trade honestly, while being true to Torah at the same time. You seem to argue vehemently with me in the issue of chinuch, but not in other issues of middos and politics. Maybe, just maybe, if you are generally OK with what I learned from my predecessors, B’H same will apply to my kids.
My only difference from my parents and grandparents is that they did not argue about the derech on internet. Maybe, I should have followed.September 16, 2022 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #2125492
> ONE OF the methods a school can demonstrate public school equivalency is by administrating the Regents exams to their students
and then you have a theory that equivalency include also music, art and more…
Would then these regulations be good for many mosdos – you pass the regents and there are no other requirements? Is regents just math & science, or do they go into inappropriate material? Even if they do, they should not be _that_ hard – just score higher on math and instruct kids not to even open inappropriate subjects.September 16, 2022 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #2125512
Good grief, ubiq. Your reading comprehension, indeed, is poor. Is that why you blame “The Yeshivas” for your subpar understanding? I’m not convinced the failing isn’t your own rather than those you blame. (Said only with the greatest brotherly love… really.)
Did you bother to read what you quoted or did you simply fail to understand the import of the words you copy and pasted? From your quotations: “allows… to choose from various pathways… through one of the following pathways…”
Regents is just one of multiple options to prove it. They can choose an option without Regents. Taking the Regents exams will prove equivalency is the subject of the Regent exam. Not in other subjects that are required. There are subjects that do not have a Regents exam.
Currently there ARE NO REGULATIONS defining how a school can prove equivalency. These new regs do that for the first time.
Giving the Regents exams will now demonstrate substantially equivalent instruction to students in the subject of the Regents. But not all subjects have a Regents exam. The law, as it has been for the last 100 plus years, requires substantially equivalent instruction to students that is given in the local public school system. That remains unchanged. They still require equivalent instruction in substantially all public school subjects. If you deny this fact, then any school can say we choose not to teach math. If you argue they must teach math, you’ll also have to concede that they must teach music and sex education, just as they do in public school. If you can say they can skip sex education even though it’s taught in public school, they’ll be able to then say in that case we can skip math too, even though it is taught in public schools.September 16, 2022 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #2125513
“So they aren’t compliannt. whats the problem. I have no problem with lack of compliance ”
If you have no objection to Yeshivas not being in compliance with the public school equivalency law, then just as you have no objection to Yeshiva Darchei Torah not teaching sex education, to avoid being hypocritical you’ll need to drop your objection to Satmar not teaching science or English up to par.September 17, 2022 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #2125590
“Good grief, ubiq. Your reading comprehension, indeed, is poor. Is that why you blame “The Yeshivas” for your subpar understanding?”
“Taking the Regents exams will prove equivalency is the subject of the Regent exam.”
you made up this interpretation.
I quoted it verbatim
No need to add words are peshatim to it. The other paths include military school, school for the deaf You dont need to form a military school for the deaf to prove equivalancy.
Lest someone womehow think thy do. It EXPLICTLY states “will be able to demonstrate their substantial equivalency of instruction through one of the following pathways”
Just need one.
You’ll have to quote the line that led you to this mistaken interpretation.
“Currently there ARE NO REGULATIONS defining how a school can prove equivalency. ”
Earlier you said the opposite, “full public school equivalency. ” including ” math, English, science, music, arts or sex education”
you were wrong.
Thank you for correcting the record
“If you argue they must teach math, you’ll also have to concede that they must teach music and sex education, just as they do in public school.”
sounds confusing. If you are right, hopefully these new regulations are accepted then
” to avoid being hypocritical you’ll need to drop your objection to Satmar not teaching science or English”
i’m not objecting to Satmar.
I dont care what they do* (perhaps I need to do teshuva for this attitude) . Some parents and former students do. I could care less.
*Except that it affects us as it almost did in 2019 but now that that is over I don’t care.September 17, 2022 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2125627
Torah im derech eretz, a mahalach based on a mishnah, has nothing to do with “Torah” umada, the unsourced ramblings of ignorami who equate, chas veshalom, Torah and algebra. Rav Hirsch called the chochmos the handmaids of Torah, not anywhere near equals, nor important in and of themselves.
Have any doubts? See rav breuer, rav shimon schwab, and other yekkishe rabbonim, heirs to Torah im derech eretz, who are more anti YU than most litvishe.September 17, 2022 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #2125629
See yeshiva education strikes againSeptember 18, 2022 8:44 am at 8:44 am #2125677
According to your verbatim quotation, you are asserting that the new regulations are basically saying that as long as the private school gives the Regents, even if 100% of the students fail the exam, the school has proven public school equivalency and they’re okay, correct? Because the regulation you quoted only says they have to give it.
“If you are right, hopefully these new regulations are accepted then”
This response of yours is saying you believe that the Yeshivas should be forced to teach sex education.
“you were wrong.
Thank you for correcting the record”
I see again that your English reading comprehension is subpar. But that’s okay since you spent more time in Yeshiva on Limudei Kodesh and, as a result, less time on secular studies. Baruch Hashem for that, I’m happy your Yeshiva dedicated more time for Torah, at the expense of non-Torah studies. No one should hold your lack of proper English against you. If you noticed over the years, I’ll almost never reprimand anyone for poor English.
But, since you misunderstood, let me again clarify. There are two things here 1) The Law and 2) The Regulations. The law requiring public school equivalency has existed in New York for over a hundred years. Until last week, there were no regulations specifying how to enforce that law. Nevertheless, the law was still technically mandatory. And it could have been enforced even without regulations. But it was never really enforced. Last week the Board of Regents created regulations describing how to enforce this 100+ year old law. But the law never changed between last year, prior to these regulations, and next year after these regulations kick in. The regulations only regulate how to enforce the law. And the law itself (forget the regulations) does not say only some school subjects are part of the public school equivalency requirement. It clearly indicates substantially everything taught in public schools is included in the law requiring equivalency in private schools. It makes no distinction between science education and sex education. It simply says whatever is taught in the local public school system that the private school is located in.
Again, a law is mandatory and enforceable even if there are no regulations. And if regulations are created, the regulations never changes the underlying law. Only the legislature can make changes to the law.
“i’m not objecting to Satmar… I couldn’t care less.” (I fixed your typo.)
Are you saying that you don’t care if the government drops this whole issue and continues to let Yeshivas give 90 minutes of math and low-level English, and nothing else? If so, what points are you trying to make in your various comments on this issue?September 18, 2022 9:22 am at 9:22 am #2125729
“According to your verbatim quotation, you are asserting that the new regulations are basically saying that as long as the private school gives the Regents, even if 100% of the students fail the exam, the school has proven public school equivalency and they’re okay, correct? Because the regulation you quoted only says they have to give it.”
you’d have to ask a lawyer .
Though i guess the oard of regents would require a certain pass rate to remain registered.
But that is just a guess
“This response of yours is saying you believe that the Yeshivas should be forced to teach sex education.”
1) wouldn’t be so bad
2) I double checked the New regulations “sex education” dos not appear anywhere. If it does and I missed it please please share where.
As you know I love learning new things
“If you noticed over the years, I’ll almost never reprimand anyone for poor English.”
good because you switched from past tense to future tense in that sentence alone .
At least I think so, but again poor education
“It clearly indicates substantially everything taught in public schools is included in the law requiring equivalency in private schools”
you keep saying this. where are you getting this from. Can you cite any line of law, interpretation even a lay source that says this
“substantially” means “to a great or significant extent.” It essentially means NOT the same.
And again. so why aren’t we celebrating the new regulations, hope they get accepted. since they remove any ambiguity. and most yeshivas are already compliant ? and they are so much less restrictive than tha which is currently “required” by law (according to you)
“Are you saying that you don’t care if the government drops this whole issue and continues to let Yeshivas give 90 minutes of math and low-level English, and nothing else? ”
I don’t love Government involvement in chinuch. It could only lead to bad things.
“If so, what points are you trying to make in your various comments on this issue?
It shifted over the course of the three pages
But in a nutshell. Pointing out that the complaints is coming from Those who were within the system who are upset that they were “shortchanged” (in their view) and that they have a point.
I initially pointed this out to Besalel who missed the main point of the story. and then to eiddeee who completely missed thsi pointSeptember 18, 2022 10:23 am at 10:23 am #2125757
“If so, what points are you trying to make in your various comments on this issue?”
your last comment got me thinking, over the past back and forths youve just been repeating the same thing more than usual. Lets regroup.
you are very fixated on arguing that Darchei and Satmar are the same. This is disingenuous at best. The law requires “substantial equivalency” Ok this isnt exactly defined, but it does have a defitnion, it doesn’t mean whatever you want. IT doesn’t mean exactly the same, nor does it mean not at all the same. As mentioned substantially means “to a great or significant extent.” What exactly is included I don’t know certainly when it comes to education the so called “3 R’s” are included. No reasonable person can argue that stopping English/Math at 4th grade and having homework assignments that look like the ones ithje NYT highlighted is “to a great or significant extent” the same as Public school. On the other hands Students that are fluent in English* can handle Regents like Darchei produces are “to a great or significant extent” similar to Public school even if they have never played an instrument .
Where exactly is the line drawn?. I grant I don’t know, but Satmar is clearly not within it (a point you haven’t really disputed). you want to argue neither is Darchei? So far you haven’t made a convincing argument to that end.
The MAIn issue at hand is what are Parent’s rights when it comes to education. This was my very first comment on the thread, and honestly I’m not sure. Should parents have the right not to teach their kids any English any Math.? I don’t know I never commented one way or the other .
reread my first comment to Besalel .
Further complicating things is that the Parents of the schools themselves disagree. Granted most, presumably, support the Satmar shita, but some don’t. They have rights too.
This was the next significant back and forth this time with Eidee, which is what led to our back/forth. He is under the mistaken notion that if you choose a school you need to accept it no matter what.
To which I replied that I completely disagree with that (both because they didn’t choose the school, they have no choice – we commented on this part a bit though I guess we agree to disagree) AND because the law is on their side.
Hope this helps clarify.
As always feel free to ask any follow up question.
* The Asterisk will leads to another post that is a side point I want to make that I dont want lost in this summarySeptember 18, 2022 10:37 am at 10:37 am #2125785
(Thsi is a side point to a pending post, it is important point I’d like to make though I dont want it to distract from that nice summary so I’m posting it here (plus to make it easier for the mods)
In my pending post I wrote “On the other hands Students that are fluent in English* can handle Regents like Darchei produces are “to a great or significant extent” similar to Public school even if they have never played an instrument .”
A point that often gets made is that so what if they are not fluent in English they are fluent in Yiddish .We don’t give a hard time to people who, say speak Spanish. Why doesnt Yiddish count .
(leaving aside the fact that to the best of my knowledge NO school and few if any parents teach kids only Spanish, and not want the kids to speak English)
It isnt really true. Kids don’t really learn yiddish. In mys chool yiddish was taught only until 2nd grade. From then on it is learnt by osmosi, and whatever comes up in learning. Now, it is not a big deal that I did not know that Yiddish like LAshon Kodesh has masculine/feminine nouns, I grant that isn’t important. The problem though is things that don;lt coem up in leanring they have zero/no knowledge about .
As you know I am a physiscan. I speak yiddish so I get a lot of Yiddish-speaking patients. Like any New York physycian I get a lot of spanish speaking patients too.
The Yiddish speakers have no idea about basic functions of the human body. I try to explain that a patient has kidney failure. Many of them don;t know what “niren” are (unless they learnt Zevachim sure in Chumash you translate “kelayos” as “niren” but what ARE they) I try explaining what diabetes is and elevated sugar which can lead to kidney failure/dialysis. but they just dont have the vocabulary for it, not in Yiddish and not in English.
with my Spanish patients, I use an interpreter line, and we can have a meaningful conversation.
I grant this is a side issue since Its a bit weird to say that you need English education in Elementary school, in case a person gets kidney failure down the line R”l . And USUALLY if I spend enough time they get it (not always). But this is but one example, and yes there are health networks and Liasons to help guide through the medical world. Presumably the lega lworld too.
So I dont expect you to find this a convincing argument, but it is a point worth makingSeptember 18, 2022 11:42 am at 11:42 am #2125804
In yiddish they call diabetes “der sukar krank.”. My grandfather, a yiddish speaking doctor from Europe, wrote a book in yiddish on it.
Ever read the yiddish magazines? They’re full of health news, and mention diabetes, heart disease, etc… Quite often.September 18, 2022 11:44 am at 11:44 am #2125803
Ubiq, ever hear of “man on the street” examples of how people don’t know who Abraham Lincoln was, or who the president is, etc… they’re often taken at college campuses. While amusing, they’re not statistically representative of the majority of people.
A few years ago, an organization posted signs everywhere in boro park with heimishe people’s faces on them, captioned “och hub genadvant a nir”. I am not fluent in yiddish, so i asked a random guy on the street what a nir was, and he said a kidney.
Chasidim know what diabetes is, and they know what kidneys are. You may have met a handful of people with serious developmental disabilities or people similar to the college kids who don’t know who the president is.
It’s simply hateful. You’re misrepresenting your own brethren and you’re full of hate.September 18, 2022 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #2125824
Avira, maybe Ubiq patients are not the readers of Yiddish magazines. They used to be mostly socialist, do we have mostly religious yiddish papers?September 18, 2022 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #2125833
Not my main point,m so need to get too bogged down
“My grandfather, a yiddish speaking doctor from Europe, wrote a book in yiddish on it.”
Great! Have them teach it in schools Everybody wins. not sure on the point of this
“Ever read the yiddish magazines? They’re full of health news, and mention diabetes, heart disease, etc… Quite often.”
Yes indeed. This may surprise you though, not every person reads every article. So a system where such major gaps are meant to be filled in by hopefully them stumbling across your grandfather’s book or them reading every article in a newspaper. ISnt a great one.
Again, not terrible. Just a flaw I pointed out.
“While amusing, they’re not statistically representative of the majority of people.”
Agreed, which is part of why I mentioned this wasn’t a particularly convincing argument. Its not like chasidim have a higher incidence of diabetes, dialysis etc (as far as I can tell), so it isnt the biggest deal. And there are wonderful chesed oprganizations to help guide through the medcial maze (maybe even providing a net benefit?) Though I’m not sure Id characterize telling a patient that if he didn’t start taking insulin he’d end up on dialysis and it was if I was explaining physiology to a child “amusing” (I bristle at you describing regular Chasidim as Developmentally disabled, if it never came up it never came up)
“It’s simply hateful. You’re misrepresenting your own brethren and you’re full of hate.”
If that makes you feel better. Sure why not. Pure hate .
To be clear though; you dont seem to be disputing my main point. Namely that they don’t really learn Yiddish, they just pick up what they need as they go on. Correct?
(not that this is bad per se)September 18, 2022 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #2125867
They learn yiddish no differently than public school kids learn English. Literature helps to develop a polished speech and writing ability, but that’s not the focus of chasidishe chinuch. They know yiddish because it’s their mother tongue.September 18, 2022 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2125874
You seem to argue vehemently with me in the issue of chinuch, but not in other issues of middos and politics. Maybe, just maybe, if you are generally OK with what I learned from my predecessors, B’H same will apply to my kids.
I argue your middos regularly. I have complained that your lack of respect toward Torah and Torah authorities is unacceptable. I have argued the way you talk about chazal as if they were buddies of your. I have argued about how racist and ant semetic your comments are about kollel people in areas that you are clueless about because you don’t like them.
I don’t argue your politics because I don’t care. And if your racism and lack of respect was directed toward non religious figures/issues I wouldn’t comment on those either regardless of my agreement. I only bother because your comments are stated so subtly yet are so distructive in the way of subliminal messaging and it needs to be countered.September 18, 2022 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2125877
I work in an Illinois Public school district in a heavily hispanic area. There are many classes taught in spanish, curriculum delivered in spanish and others that are dual language, meaning they seitch off so that english and spanish speakers can each learn the other language. It floors me that nobody else in this country has such accomodations. We even have many spanish speaking staff who can barely communicate in english. I am often one of two non spanish speakers at IEP meetings and the translators are actually there for MY benefit, not the parents. The level of education in this school is way below others in the districts and it is not because it is being taught lower or because the teachers are giving less. It is an immigrant community with transient residents who move in and move out and move back. Most of their parents are illiterate in english and cannot help with homework. Many work night shifts and the kids are alone with relatives on tablets all day. I do know much of this damage is the result of covid restrictions but I don’t know how much.
The private frum schools are teaching at a much higher level than this school and every one of these kids will be allowed to receive a diploma. Nobody will hold them to how much English they have acquired. And the students are loved and respected and the parents are grateful their children are receiving more than they received.
There is an element of acceptence here that doesn’t exist in NY.September 18, 2022 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #2125884
“They learn yiddish no differently than public school kids learn English.”
Please don’t lie.
Satmar doesnt have Yiddish grammar/vocabulary classes ( I wasn’t referring to literature) . definitely not past kitah beis. Public schools do (English not Yiddish).
You maintain they don’t need to, and they are doing just fine. “that’s not the focus of chasidishe chinuch.”
B’seder that’s fair .
In fact I essentially said that in the last paragraph (“It’s a bit weird…”) .September 18, 2022 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #2125885MarxistParticipant
There is a huge difference between teaching math, science, and social studies but in Spanish to not teaching them that at all in any language.September 18, 2022 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #2125895
agreed. but they are coming out of school without knowing any of it. nor knowing english. the yiddish speaking community knows more math than they do and they also know yiddish as fluently as these kids know spanish.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.