June 11, 2020 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #18707981Participant
it’s obvious that the cancel culture has taken over the Democrat party. First it’s statues, who’s next?June 12, 2020 12:30 am at 12:30 am #1870869DovidBTParticipant
This isn’t new. Anything that doesn’t align with their agenda (whatever that is) is a target.June 12, 2020 2:53 am at 2:53 am #1870886
People are emotional now. Wait a few weeks until things blow over.June 12, 2020 8:25 am at 8:25 am #1870930
I don’t understand how anyone can oppose removing confederate statues. and spare me absurd arguments about “erasing history” We don’t need a statue to rememebr people, A statue glorifies people. nobody suggests Renaming a military installation fort John Wilkes Booth so he isnt forgotten, or building a statue of Mohamad Attah.
Kneeling in protest before a US flag is wrong, but taking up arms against the US and firing upon that flag deserves a statue?
(I dont disagree with the opposing cancel culture and shutting down free speech that is taking hold of the left, and don’t get me started on the gleeful public excutions of people who do or tweet something, that may be offensive (and often isnt), but the statue example is one that I don’t get the support for.)June 12, 2020 8:27 am at 8:27 am #1870940
Some culture needs to be cancelled, permanently. Nazi culture. Racist culture. Anti-Semite culture. And treason culture.
How the US military can name military bases for those who committed treason against this country is beyond me. We might as well rename West Point for Benedict Arnold!June 12, 2020 8:28 am at 8:28 am #1870934Someone in MonseyParticipant
HBO temporarily banned ‘Gone with the Wind’ after being called out, so I would say say popular culture is next, either movies or books.June 12, 2020 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1871099jackkParticipant
The republican party and Trump are openly and unabashed racists. White Supremacy is their party platform.
They would love that all minorities should be slaves again. The minorities are sub-humans compared to the white master race.
The South and confederacy lost the civil war but the ideal that the whites are the supreme race has never disappeared.
They honor the confederate generals and leaders because they pine for the time when they had slaves and whites were supreme.
By taking down the statues and renaming the military locations, the USA of 2020 is repudiating their entire belief system.
It is surprising that Jews would disagree with this repudiation.June 12, 2020 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1871135Avi KParticipant
Charlie, I seriously doubt if anyone other than the confrontation seekers know for whom they were named. In fact, Army officals did not even know. A base was built and the locals decided on the names. Google “The history behind the naming of Fort Bragg as Pentagon considers renaming base”. It goes far beyond that though. Any historical figure who did anything wrong is out. In fact, they are even calling out Trump for holding a rally in Tulsa (scene of one of the worst racial massacres in American history) on June 19 (Abolition Day). The inmates have taken over the asylum.June 12, 2020 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1871136
1. What about statues of John Brown? Geronimo?
2. Stop comparing Benedict Arnold to Robert Lee. Arnold was a despicable human being who was about to turn in his country because he didn’t get the promotion he wanted. Lee on the other hand was offered a major promotion to entice him to stay but he felt like it was wrong.
3. Read Wikipedia’s page on Robert Lee and tell me if you still think he was a “traitor” and not a hero.June 12, 2020 11:57 am at 11:57 am #1871106
1. From 1865 to 2017, America didn’t consider the South treasonous.
2. There is a monument to John Andre in Tappan, NY
3. The South had a right to leave an evolved system which they never signed up to.
4. Read Jefferson Davis’ Rise and Fall of the Confederacy.
5. Lincoln was a war mongering President who had no right attacking the Southern states and killing millions of Americans to “preserve the Union”. (Fort Sumter was a Northern provocation. They had no right being in that area.)
6. Some of the statues may have been a protest of desegregation in the 20th century. If that’s true knock those down.
7. Certain statues such as of Forrest (began the KKK in postbellum South) may actually be representing the evil of White Supremacism. If this is true knock them down.
8. Robert E Lee was always and still is considered at worst a great american personality and at best an American Hero. Some people don’t like the deification of the general, but there is no doubt that he represents more than just a slave owber fighting for his rights to own slaves. It would do well for us to remember that we had people like him in our history. (And sinve were on Yeshova World, based on the documents that we have, he was MUCH more tolerant to his Jewish soldiers than Union General Grant was. Making sure that they were able to take a break on Yom Tov if I remember correctly. Getting Matzah.)
9.and tgat is the point of these “protesters”. They want you to think that every remembrance of someone in history is trying to represent evil since naturally every single person living 100 years ago is in some way ot another less liberal than today. Does FDR represent anti Asian oppression?June 12, 2020 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1871166
Another point: the people who memorialize the Confederacy and the producers of Gone with the Wind are romanticizing the Confederacy and what they fought for. You can argue that it was all rooted in evil. But they claim otherwise. Or, in otger words, there is a healthy freedom of thought and debate that’s going on. By destroying the Confederate monuments and Gone with yhe Wind, they’re attempting to control thr narrative, forcefully end the debate, and end freedom of thought in the United States.June 12, 2020 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1871174
1. What about them?
2. No they werent exactly the same
3. Yes he was a traitor
1. Of course we did. It was just felt that it was better for the sake of peace to come together than to dwell on the past
2. so take it down
3. The supreme court ruled in Texas vs white that this is not so.
4. Why? (im not opposed reading it but is there a point or are you just reccomnding good bucks I liked the invisible gorrilla)
5. See number 3. ( And even if that were so, clearly yo uare operatign in a different framework of “right and wrong” Most of thsoe includign Trump who support keeping the confederate statues view Lincoln as a great president )
6. Its a lot of them see timelines of when they were put up
7. One correct point
8.- 9 Of course every individual is multi -faceted. But statues of Robert E LEe are not put up to commemorate how great he was that he gave Matza n or or Statues of FDR put uop to commeorate how well he dealt with Asian-Americans during WW2. the bottom line is Statues of Confederate generals are put up SOLELY to commemorate/glorify their role in a revolt against the US. A revolt that was largely fueled by racisim.June 12, 2020 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1871192jackkParticipant
1) Blacks have always had a disgust for the confederate flag and its leaders. On the other side, many southern whites have always idolized the confederate flag and their leaders for what they represent.
2-5) Do we really want to fight the civil war again ?
6-7) That is a praiseworthy position.
The ones who wants the monuments taken down compare them to having monuments for leaders of the Axis powers. They lost and the losers do not get the right to decide on how to remember them. How do you respond?June 12, 2020 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1871208
1. They were also treasonous yet there are statues of them all over the US.
2. One correct point.
3. He was not a traitor to the Commonwealth of Virginia.
1. That’s an opinion. I think it was more complex then that. Lincoln when visiting Richmond after the war asked the band to play Dixie because already then he said the Confederacy was inherently an American thing.
2. You have to be insane to be so unmagnaminious.
3. Texas v White was in 1869. Nice try.
4. Because then you will find out how and why the Southerners seceded, from their own POV. Of course, in a Cancel Culture society they would ban the book so that their POV is never heard. (Invisible Gorilla looks like an interesting read Ill try to get it).
5. See number 3 (its actually an interesting phenomena that Lincoln wasn’t considered such a bad guy in postbellum South. You can read Rav Ilowy’s hesped of him despite the fact that Rav Ilowy was very pro-South (he ran away from Baltimore to New Orleans). I think it had to do with the way Lincoln was killed. People tend to romanticize assassinated individuals (read Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar)).
6. Alternatively statues were put up in the 30s brcaus thats when the veterans began dying out and in the 60s because of the centennial. But in Cancel Culture we dont allow that kind of thought ch”v.
7. Thank you
8-9. Thats your point of view. According to the 1619 project everything is rooted in racism.June 12, 2020 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1871287akupermaParticipant
Just wait untijl the Democrats sweep the next election. To see whose next to get cancelled, just look in a mirror.June 12, 2020 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1871295
@frumtd i dont think you have the correct definition of cancel culture. We all agree that not every viewpoint should be promoted. But are you suggesting that the Chinese Culture Revolution was also legitimate?June 12, 2020 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1871301
“I don’t understand how anyone can oppose removing confederate statues. and spare me absurd arguments about “erasing history” ”
i appose it for the same reason i appose people who want to destroy Auschwitz, because if we erase history we are likely to repeat it!!June 12, 2020 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1871304
if biden sweeps the next election, america turns into VenezuelaJune 12, 2020 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1871306
These thugs are already tearing down statues of Winston Churchill and Christopher Columbus.June 12, 2020 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #1871322
Cancel Culture would be the equivalent of Mishna Brurah followers banning the Arukh HashulhanJune 12, 2020 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #1871303
jackk: you are a racistJune 12, 2020 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1871324
“i appose it for the same reason i appose people who want to destroy Auschwitz, because if we erase history we are likely to repeat it!!”
this poitn was already addressed:
should we rename Newark airport Mohamad Atah International Airport. you woudlnt want his name erased now would you?
And lets not forget a statue of John Wlkes booth
This isn’t comparable to Auschwiz. A comparison would be to a statue of Hitler in time Square (or Berlin) .June 12, 2020 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1871328
“1. From 1865 to 2017, America didn’t consider the South treasonous.”
What’s your basis for this assetion. I dispute it.
3. The South had a right to leave an evolved system which they never signed up to.
What’s your basis for this? If Kiryas Yoel wants to secede from the US and take a democratic vote to secede from both NY and the US, you’d agree that the Republic of Kiryas Yoel legally exists? Of course not. It is illegal to secede from the US. Whether it is Virginia that did it then or if California or Kityas Yoel tried and declared independence now.
5. Lincoln was a war mongering President who had no right attacking the Southern states and killing millions of Americans to “preserve the Union”. (Fort Sumter was a Northern provocation. They had no right being in that area.)
False. If a country has a rebellion, the leaders of the country have both the right and obligation to suppress it with arms if necessary.
“8. Robert E Lee was always and still is considered at worst a great american personality and at best an American Hero. Some people don’t like the deification of the general, but there is no doubt that he represents more than just a slave owber fighting for his rights to own slaves.”
The Confederacy was treason against the United States.
And the primary motivation for the Confederacy to secede from the United States was to preserve slavery.June 12, 2020 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1871329
@ ubiquitin I agree. This Condoleezza Rice reason to keep monuments makes no sense and is obviously an excuse to keep monuments that they cant explain intellectually why they have a problem with it coming down. Another absurd reason is that it will be a slippery slope.June 12, 2020 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1871335
1 the problem isn’t treasonous per se, it is that they stood for racism. That said, if you want to remove other statues glorifying any traitor. go for it The problem with Lee is not just that he took up arms against the US, its that he took up arms
3. At best that would be an argument to allow his statue to remain in Virgina.,.
1. proves nothing
2. You brought up the comparison, I’m not sure why I am the insane one
3. “Texas v White was in 1869. Nice try.”
Very good. And they ruled that there is no right to secede in direct opposition to your assertion”The South had a right to leave an evolved system which they never signed up to.” ( in fact they ruled that the South never seceded since it was basically impossible)
4. ” Because then you will find out how and why ”
Oh I know why. The articles of secession are still around .They say exactly why the states seceded starting with SC the first state that seceded due to “increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the Institution of Slavery”” We have first hand sources. Dont fall back on lamentings of a failed leader tryign to whitewash history (Again, I havent read it but if he downplays slavery;s role then this is a fair description)
“Alternatively statues were put up in the 30s brcaus thats when the veterans began dying out and in the 60s because of the centennial.”
I see you looked up the dates and didnt like what you found
“According to the 1619 project everything is rooted in racism.”
so they are wrong. plain and simple.June 12, 2020 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1871357
the difference is Hitler specifically stands for Nazism, George Washington and Robert E LEE don’t specifically stand for slavery, in fact Robert E Lee was against slaves, he fought for the south because he felt patriotic to them.June 12, 2020 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1871440
I think we basically covered all bases in our debate, so we don’t have to turn this into an endless Ubiqituin loop. If I have the time to do it, I will try to delve deeper in the “myth” of the Lost Cause, intent of the statue builders etc. Regardless, my main point was that the people who built the statues and especially those who want to maintain them are not doing so out of white supremacy or any evil intentions. For them it represents something good.
Interestingly, there were many people in history whos day job was to be great personalities and on the side perswcuted the Jews. I dont think their statues should be removed either for the same reason. This includes henry ford, that pilot in the 20s, president grant (jk) Pompeii etc. The anti communists in the Ukraine. I’m waiting for Ubiqition to suport me and som1 to suport me.June 13, 2020 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1871749
No need for a loop
But we dont seem to have covered all bases, since oyu are repeating the same mistake.
“I will try to delve deeper in the “myth” of the Lost Cause, ”
Sure start with the beginning : namely the articles of secession of the various states
“Interestingly, there were many people in history whos day job was to be great personalities and on the side perswcuted the Jews.”
You nailed the distinction! but seem to have trouble following through.
People’s whose day job was “to be a great personality” are not comparable to the subject at hand. When you see a statue of FDR, and your kid asks “who was he” the reply isnt “Oh he’s the guiy who interned the Japanese” or “Hes the guy who didnt due enough to save the Jews” Although both of those are true. That isnt what he statue is commemorating. Ditto for the ohers
On the other hand Mussolini may have gotten the trains to run on time (as the saying goes) . nonethless it would be weird to erect a monument for him even claiming “its not about that other stuff, we are ocusing on his train orginizing skillls”
Similarly a statue of Lee, Why is it there? is it becasue of his leadership role in the confederacy? or becasue of some noble quality that he undoubtedly had eg “Making sure that they were able to take a break on Yom Tov if I remember correctly. Getting Matzah” Why is the statue there? what are they glorifying?
if the former – well as mentioned look no further than the articles of secession declaring WHY the confederacy (that he represents) existedJune 14, 2020 10:06 am at 10:06 am #1871953jdf007Participant
This is a good Democrat party thread. Let’s argue, and maybe revise 19th century history (and 15th century) while we have a plague in the 21st century that we ignore……until the “peaceful” “protestors” succumb. Then we can blame racism for that in a few weeks too.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen such ridiculously misplaced priorities before.June 14, 2020 10:07 am at 10:07 am #1871954
I would want to look at Virginia’s articles more than what a deepnsouth state would write. But regardless, what really happened isn’t so important. They’re not necessarily memorializing the truth. Even if they made up their myths on the spot to whitewash what they really fought for, I don’t think you have a right to control their thoughts. We also believe in things which social scientists think are rooted in illiberalism.
Back to the important stuff, you’re leaving a wide range between FDR and Mussolini but I get the idea.
Would you support knocking down the Arch of Titus? (And dont say History I dont care for History and I didnt care for History when ISIS destroyed the Roman temples at Palmyra/Tadmur.)June 14, 2020 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1871959
” I seriously doubt if anyone other than the confrontation seekers know for whom they were named.”
You obviously have not known very many US military officers. They typically have extraordinary knowledge of military history and know very well who Lee, Hood, Pickett, Beauregard, Bragg, and the other Confederate Generals were, and the fatal errors that each made.June 14, 2020 10:42 am at 10:42 am #1871971
“if biden sweeps the next election, america turns into Venezuela”
Biden is the only think that will prevent Trump from turning into Venezuela. We need to permanently defeat the venal corruption and racism that Trump represents.
Trump went to Dallas last week to speak on policing. He refused to meet with the Dallas Police Chief, the Dallas County Sheriff, or the Dallas District Attorney. All three are African Americans. The message is clear.June 14, 2020 10:42 am at 10:42 am #1871969
“You can argue that it was all rooted in evil. But they claim otherwise. ”
As I said in another comment, I have direct ancestors who fought for the Confederacy. They were supporting evil. And if you don’t get that, you really missed something in your yeshiva education. Woe to those who tried to teach you Torah!
If the racism that create the Confederate States is acceptable, so is the anti-Semitism that created Nazi Germany.June 14, 2020 10:43 am at 10:43 am #1871966
Comments like this give ammunition to anti-Semites. You just defended Lee’s being able to own other human beings. You are to black people what Nazis are to Jews.June 14, 2020 10:44 am at 10:44 am #1871963
Some of my direct ancestors fought for the South under General Lee’s command. I grew up listening to the stories about the Civil War. It is my family mesorah. I have other direct ancestors who fought for the North.
Gen. Lee waged war against the United States. That makes him guilty of treason. He had previously taken an oath to support the United States. That makes him a traitor. The only difference between Robert E. Lee and Benedict Arnold is that Arnold was a better general.
All disagreements with the previous paragraph are attempts to rewrite history.June 14, 2020 10:44 am at 10:44 am #1871965
Shnitzel: Do you carry your argument over to skinheads who whitewashed the Holocaust and believe their denials about its occurrence?
Are you sorry that ISIS destroyed the Avoda Zora temples from 2500 years ago in Iraq? You shouldn’t be.June 14, 2020 10:45 am at 10:45 am #1871975
“I don’t think you have a right to control their thoughts.”
No question about that. and certainly an individual should be allowed to dispose any symbol or statue on his property. But the state paying for and glorifying a symbol that represents hate (in the view of many) is a different story.
The arch of titus is a good question. no I dont think it should be knocked down.
I’m not sure if I’m being inconsistent. (I dont think so – please tell me if you disagree ) for the followign reasons (some of these may be linked and arent necessarily distinct reasons) :
1) The historical aspect the arch is almost a 1000 years old the confederate staues are less than a century old and arent historically significant
2) The arch no longer serves as a “glorification” it is a tourist and historical cite. I don’t think its existence today shows the Italian government glorifying its predecessor’s triumph over Judea
3) It doesn’t bother me. in fact it provides a form of nechama here we still are a thousand years later while the once mighty Roman empire is a sophistical tourist sight. netzach yisroel Lo yishaker. (“Titus Titus vi bizt du” )
that one I find easy.
A harder one for me to answer is statues like Calvary on the Charles Bridge in Prague* which I find very painful, and to a lesser extent representations of “Ecclesia and Synagoga,” On the one hand they arent nice, but on the other hand we are in golus so perhaps that pained feeling is appropriate . On the other (third?) hand it is a chilul Hashem I just dont know.
If I had to vote I’d vote to remove them, but I wouldn’t organize a moment to remove them I guess as some sort of peshara, but I feel torn about this
(*when I was there in 2005 the legs of the heh’s in the Shem Havaya had been removed so that it was yud-daled-yud -daled which was a partial nechama, it was said that this was done by a “vandal” but that the Governent acquiesced However I see on more recent pictures that was “repaired” and is now fully written again)June 14, 2020 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1872176
First we get defenses of racist slavery and now we get defenses of Islamic State.
Good thing this site doesn’t get many non-Jewish readers.June 14, 2020 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1872194
” should be allowed to dispose any symbol or statue on his property”
should read “display any symbol…”
“once mighty Roman empire is a sophistical tourist sight. ”
should read: “historical tourist site”June 14, 2020 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1872159
Here are some Southerners who deserve to have US military bases named after them:
Lt. Gen. Winfield Scott, from Virginia. He had served in the War of 1812 and the Mexican-American War. He is the longest serving US general officer in history, and was the commanding officer at the beginning of the Civil War. He clashed with Lincoln on many issues but it was his “Anaconda” plan that ended up winning the war for the US and defeating the rebellion. He also tried to talk then Col. Robert E. Lee out of committing treason.
Rear Admiral Samuel Phillips Lee, also from Virginia. He was third cousin to Robert E. Lee and also tried to talk Col. Lee out of committing treason. He led blockades of the South during the Civil War. His father in law, Francis Preston Blair, was a major advisor to President Lincoln. His son Blair Lee would be the first person elected to the US Senate by popular vote after the 17th Amendment, his grandson E. Brooke Lee would be Speaker of the Maryland House of Delegates, and his great grandson Blair Lee III would serve as Lt. Governor of Maryland.
Major General Montgomery C. Meigs, from Georgia. He was Quartermaster General for the entire Civil War and his ability to supply and to transport the huge Union Army huge distances via rail, water, and land was essential to the successful victory of the Union. It is an accomplishment that has gone unnoticed by too many supposed Civil War buffs but not by people who understand war. As the saying goes, amateur generals talk strategy while real generals talk logistics.
Major General George H. Thomas, from Virginia. As a child, he and his family had survived Nat Turner’s famous unsuccessful slave revolt and he became an opponent of slavery for the rest of his life. He was one of the Union’s best generals, winning the Battle of Nashville which totally destroyed what remained of the Confederate Army in the West. He never got a major command because he refused to play politics and he died a few years after the war before getting a chance to write memoirs.
Admiral David Farragut, born in Tennessee and grew up in Louisiana. One of the few loyal southerners to receive some recognition, including a now closed naval facility and a postage stamp. The town closest to his place of birth is now named for him; that part of eastern Tennessee remained loyal to the Union. He had served in the War of 1812 and the Mexican-American War. He played a major role in the Union capture of New Orleans, Port Hudson, and led the Union forces at Mobile Bay, famously shouting “Damn the torpedoes.” He was the foster brother of Admiral David Dixon Porter.
Major General Robert Anderson, from Kentucky. He had served in the Black Hawk War, where one of the people he mustered into militia service as Abraham Lincoln, and in the Mexican-American War. He is best known for having been the leader of the Union garrison at Fort Sumter when it was attacked. There had been little sentiment in favor of fighting a war against the South until the South attacked Fort Sumter without provocation; then Major Anderson’s refusal to surrender at the point of a gun made him a national hero and electrified support for fighting to preserve the Union by force. While he was promoted to be a general officer he played little further role in the Civil War because of poor health, although he did return to Charleston to raise the US flag over Fort Sumter in April 1865.
Brigadier General William Terrill, from Virginia. He was killed at the Battle of Perryville. He had two brothers who fought for the Confederacy and were killed in action.
Rear Admiral John Ancrum Winslow, from North Carolina. However, he was from an old New England family and had ancestors on the Mayflower. He is most famous for having been the Captain of the USS Kearsarge when it sank the “commerce raider” CSS Alabama off the coast of France as both French and British vessels stood by. The wreck of the Alabama was discovered in 1984. There have been several USS Winslow ships in the US Navy named in his honor.
Finally, as we are about to read Parshat Shelach this coming week, one Southern Spy deserves mention: Elizabeth Van Lew, who despite being from Richmond VA was an abolitionist prior to secession. She cared for Union POWs and helped them escape, and she had contacts in the Confederate government that fed her information about the confederate military that she conveyed, partly through escaped prisoners, to the Union leaders. She was rewarded by President Grant by being named Postmaster of Richmond for eight years and she lived to the age of 81, dying in 1900, just before Virginia took voting rights away from blacks and poor whites.June 14, 2020 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #1872209
1. Did your ancestors fight because they owned slaves that they didn’t want to give up? I doubt it. Most soldiers that fought for the Confederacy had little or nothing to do with the slavery industry (and they definitely didn’t have black house slaves)
2. I am not offended by your ad hominem attacks on me; it’s a bit upsetting though to see people that are so narcissistic about their grandparents. But I guess your schooling taught you those values; another reason why liberal education is so damaging.
3. I already went through why the treason line doesn’t make any sense. You can try to counter argue my reasons but repeating the same line over and over again won’t help you.
I specifically wrote that I do not hold it against ISIS for destroying the Roman temples at Tadmura. I wasn’t clear enough?
If they had a bust of Mussolini in the Museum of On Time Train Running i wouldnt have a problem with it.
Regarding the Arch of Titus
1. I dont think History is a reason to keep something which shouldn’t be there. Its almost as if you are saying that there is a statute of limitations to memorializing evil.
2. True. You can apply this to Confederate statues as well (to an extent). But I don’t want to go back there.
3. I agree.June 14, 2020 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1872220👑RebYidd23Participant
All statues should be taken down. If they can keep renaming bridges (which they do), why not keep putting up new statues? New people to make statues of are born faster than new pedestals are made.June 14, 2020 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1872219
@Joseph since according to halacha there is no need to destroy avodah zarah which was battul so i do feel a sense of nostalgia to a building of architectural importance. And I was upset. I just don’t think using History is a good argument against a religious reason to destroy it.June 14, 2020 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1872215
Charlie cries over the destruction of the Avoda Zora temples in Iraq while calling for the destruction of statues of white Americans.June 14, 2020 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1872235
” I dont think History is a reason to keep something”
I agree completely
I guess I ddint mean it as an independent reason, it is linked to the 2nd reason. Namely that at this point, today it no longer serves (or at least is not meant) as an “arc of triumph” over judea.
It reminds me of a question I once asked R’ Belsky Ztl about reading Greek Mythology. He said it was muttar since “nobody worships them” in other words they were no longer Avoda zara, today it is just history. Similarly there is no problem to say the names of planets like Jupiter, Saturn, days of the week Wednesday Thursday Or even Tammuz even though these WERE all once names of avoda Zara they are no longer avoda zara (becasue they arent worshiped)
While not exactly analogous, that is what I meant by the “historical” aspect. Although built to commeorate victory over Judea. I dont think its existence today is for that reason.
There certainly is room for disagreement ( both in R’ Belsky’s Psak, and the comparison to here) I just wanted to clarify that it wanst just the fact that it was old that makes me ok with it.
“If they had a bust of Mussolini in the Museum of On Time Train Running i wouldnt have a problem with it.”
Fair enough. nor would I have a problem of a bust of Lee in a museum of the Civil war.June 14, 2020 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1872257
What would be the point of putting up statues of new people if they would only last twenty years when they will be knocked down to make way for the next generation’s statues?June 14, 2020 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1872244
Rebyidd23 is actually pointing to something onteresting that the reason why so many people are calling for the destruction of staturss is because statues are nit a thin anymoreJune 14, 2020 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1872281
Shnitzel: You haven’t addressed my response to you in Post #1871328.June 14, 2020 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1872273June 14, 2020 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1872304
“Rav belsky allowed reading the Odyssey too?”
I didn’t ask specifically, his answer didn’t address arayos, just the Avoda Zarah aspect
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