Can't Eat By In-Laws Who Eat Gebrochts on Pesach

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  • #1149924
    yehudayona
    Participant

    ZD, why are the poor single mothers buying factory-made cookies and cakes? They’re way overpriced whether they’re made with potato starch or matzo meal. They can make their own cookies and cakes much more cheaply. The potato starch recipes are probably actually cheaper than the matzo meal ones.

    #1149925

    Maybe they should buy the quinoa sushi, which is cheaper than the cookies.

    #1149926
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Not everyone knows how to bake. Most people probably dont

    #1149927
    mw13
    Participant

    …which, of course, is why it is necessary for absolutely everyone to purchase only non-gebrokts food. Otherwise, they will be much, much too expensive for all of those poor widows and orphans who can’t bake to afford. They will literally starve.

    So in a nutshell, anybody who buys gebrokts is a murderer.

    #1149928
    Mammele
    Participant

    I really can’t stop laughing over this thread…

    And for the record, I think ziploc bags are probably more expensive than matzah bags. IIRC they’re differently marketed off-brand food storage bags with an off-brand price. No need for any closure.

    And it’s not so hard to eat matzo out of a plastic bag. It does take a little getting used to, so maybe the first time it’s awkward. But we humans can be very adaptive, especially a young bochur.

    #1149929

    gosh mw, what funny jokes. I think your point has been made, you are all allowed to use zd for target practice because you understand all these comments to be attacks on Judaism instead of on what he perceives to be misplaced priorities some people put on chumras. got it. And since you know for a fact you aren’t mistaken its almost an obligation. I think Hashem gives extra points for that.

    #1149930

    mammaleh – it may be possible to be adaptive but I ate by people who gave me matzo in a bag and i found it to be not only uncomfortable, but i felt it was an inappropriate way to perform the mitzvah. It is not my mesorah and i don’t feel it was bkovodik. I may be able to adapt, but i wouldnt want to. Its not comfortable for everyone just because its comfortable for some.

    In the same way that my husband would not possibly feel comfortable staying by a chassidish friend and venturing to shacharis at 9:45.

    It isn’t just different, it wouldn’t feel appropriate.

    and on the funny side – i thought the matzo bags were for putting your matzo sandwhich in since a sandwhich bag is too small!

    #1149931

    Someone whose mihhag is to not eat gebrokts doesn’t have misplaced priorities if he won’t eat gebrokts.

    It wouldn’t even matter to me if it was an optional chumra, but for them it isn’t.

    It’s not about misplaced priorities; it’s about respecting others’ minhagim instead of making up bogus reasons why people minding their own business keeping their family minhagim are somehow hurting others.

    As I’ve said, I eat gebrokts, and I see no reason to stop, but those who don’t, don’t. I simply can’t fathom being so obsessed with others’ minhagim which are stricter than my own as to figure out how I can possibly turn their minhag into a selfish thing.

    #1149932

    Nobody views it as a real chashash otherwise you wouldtn eat it the last day.

    What do you mean “real”? Assur meikar hadin? Of course not. A chashash worthy of being machmir on? Perhaps, and the last day being d’rabbonon, is not an arbitrary chilluk.

    As for keilim a year later the bleios of gebrokts/ “chashah cometz” dont magically disapear

    That’s not so pashut; obviously for most issurim we don’t assume 12 months helps, but for some cases we do, so some are meikil for gebrokts which is merely a chashash.

    #1149933
    Avi K
    Participant

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    #1149934
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its one thing of someone has a personal minhag that doesnt affect anyone else Its quite another if your minhag or chumra does affect others especially if it might have negative consequences on others.

    I will repeat the following story. There was a woman on line at the grocery store for pesach and she had a bunch of items. She clearly wasnt well off. One of the items was bounty paper towels (or similar non jewish brand, I forgot) SHe then remembered that the Blumenkrantz book said not to use these towels because the glue on the cardboard roll was kitniyot. She then proceeded to return the bounty paper towels and get a Kasher L-Pesach paper towels and because it was more money had to put back some food all to keep a chumra.

    #1149935
    Avi K
    Participant

    Zahavasdad, there is one about a fish store that advertised that its fish never ate chametz. A woman phoned and asked what they ate. The owner replied that they ate smaller fish. She asked if they ate them in the water. When he said “Of course” she told him that she was sorry but she was makpid on gebruchts.

    I myself once saw a package of freezer bags that was labelled “glatt”. They were very smooth bags.

    #1149936

    She probably put back Oberlander’s non gebrokts cookies.

    #1149937
    mw13
    Participant

    SL, my point here was not to try to defend Judaism from what you perceive as my perception that zdad is attacking it. Truth is, I don’t think anybody else here believes that the keeping gebrokts is affecting anybody else in any discernible way.

    My point was that even zdad himself doesn’t honestly believe the point that he was making. If he did, the argument would cut both ways. The fact that he continues to spout this argument as a reason to discontinue the minhag of gebrokts, while completely burying his head in the sand about the fact that this argument can just as easily obligate everyone to eat only non-gebrokts, shows that he himself doesn’t really believe this argument to be true.

    Btw, this was for (or at least, inspired by) you

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/cant-eat-by-in-laws-who-eat-gebrochts-on-pesach/page/2#post-608494

    #1149938
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Truth is, I don’t think anybody else here believes that the keeping gebrokts is affecting anybody else in any discernible way.

    And that is really sad. That people think they dont live in a vaccuum and that their actions do not affect other people

    #1149939
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    “hat do you mean “real”? Assur meikar hadin?”

    No I mean that it really might be chametz. Namely that there is s possible issur of achila, baal yireh etc.

    “and the last day being d’rabbonon, is not an arbitrary chilluk.”

    What are you saying? I have a cake in my freezer that may be chametz. Can I eat this chasahash Chametz on Achron shel pesach? Thwere are few distictions we make between the first and second day. To the best of my knolwedge allowing “chasaah chometz” isnt one of them.

    As for keilim a year later the bleios of gebrokts/ “chashah cometz” dont magically disapear

    That’s not so pashut; obviously for most issurim we don’t assume 12 months helps, but for some cases we do, so some are meikil for gebrokts which is merely a chashash.

    “That’s not so pashut; obviously for most issurim we don’t assume 12 months helps, but for some cases we do, so some are meikil for gebrokts which is merely a chashash.”

    Again, If I had keleim that might be chametz can I use them after 12 months?

    #1149940

    It all depends on what constitutes “might be chometz”. There are different degrees of possibility, and you can’t lump them together.

    At this point, it’s considered more of a minhag than a chumra, but based on a time when there was a possibility, which meikar hadin we don’t need to be concerned about, which nevertheless some were machmir on. Some never took the chumra to the full extent, and relied on certain lenient factors which would not be acceptable for axreal issur.

    Now, some have the minhag to be machmir even though we grind the wheat better and have thinner matzah, and they keep the minhag as their ancestors kept it when there was a (remote and not halachically binding but real) possility of chometz.

    #1149941

    And that is really sad. That people think they dont live in a vaccuum and that their actions do not affect other people

    That’s not what is going on here.

    You even gave an example of a woman who hurt nobody but herself in your famous (and difficult to understand) paper towel story.

    You have not convinced anyone that keeping gebrokts imposes a hardship on anyone else (because it doesn’t).

    Simple question: do you want people whose minhag is not to eat gebrokts to abandon their minhag and eat gebrokts?

    #1149942
    mw13
    Participant

    zdad:

    Another simple question: Do you concede that somebody buying exclusively gebrokts products drives the prices of non-gebrokts products up the same (beyond negligible) amount that buying only non-gebrokts drives up the prices of gebrokts? It’s a simple yes or no question that you have consistently evaded.

    And if the answer is yes (which I see no reason to doubt), then aren’t we all equally of “causing people to purchase more expensive non-gebrachs you are taking food away from poor single mothers with kids money for food to support your shitta. Shittos arent in a vaccuum, Kol Bnei Yisroel Arevim Zeh Lo Zeh and you are causing these people to starve“?

    As Avi K put, the witness will answer the question…

    #1149943
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “You have not convinced anyone that keeping gebrokts imposes a hardship on anyone else (because it doesn’t).”

    Hardship is a loose term here. For some people bending just a little bit is very difficult, and for others twisting themselves like a pretzel is no big deal.

    #1149944
    yehudayona
    Participant

    Could somebody explain why it’s OK to use keilim for gebrokts on the eighth day and then use them the next year on erev Pesach? It’s not a full 12 months. Is it miktzas hachodesh k’kulo?

    #1149945

    I haven’t gotten an answer I like.

    I was thinking either along your lines (12 months isn’t precise anyway, so since here we have a set amount of time which is close, it’s good enough), or that this is the way the minhag developed because you’ll never have keilim which are b’nei yoman (used for gebrokts within 24 hours).

    #1149946
    Mammele
    Participant

    ZDad: per your logic we should all be buying only Empire/OU chicken, or maybe Nathan’s or whatever because all our chumros regarding hidurim in Kashrus for chicken are driving up the cost for other’s that can’t afford it –as the Kosher market isn’t all that big. And if we all patronized the cheaper brands they would have a larger market share and could presumably lower their prices even further.

    #1149947

    Apushatayid, under any definition, he hasn’t demonstrated it.

    #1149948
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Mammele: Be careful what you wish for. ZD might actually agree with your counter about buying OU chicken.

    I have to agree with what mw said, as haughty as it may come across: everyone, including ZD himself, knows that it’s a baseless argument, but we aren’t ones to admit defeat easily here on the CR.

    If companies were losing money on non-gebrokts items, they would either raise the prices of THOSE items (not everything else) or just stop selling them. Contrary to what seems to be the belief, the companies that make these foods are still for-profit. They aren’t holy organizations set out to make sure there are affordable non-gebrokts foods for machmirim at the expense of everyone else. That theory makes no economic or common sense.

    #1149949
    benignuman
    Participant

    The halachic psak I received on this question was that Gebrochts is not more chamur than tarfus. Therefore, if the keilim have not been used for hot Gebrochts within 24 hours, it is mutar.

    So you just need to be careful to track the use of the pots from day to day.

    #1149950

    My family has the minhag of eating gebrokts the last day. The way the minhag was explained to me when I was younger is that it’s to show that gebrokts is really muttar, we just don’t eat it. Since it’s muttar it can’t possibly make the keilim chametzdig. I did hear about some families that only eat gebrokts on the last day if the next year is a leap year. I wonder what their logic is. If it really is chametz from their perspective, how can they eat it on pesach?

    #1149951
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    “At this point, it’s considered more of a minhag than a chumra, but based on a time when there was a possibility, which meikar hadin we don’t need to be concerned about, which nevertheless some were machmir on”

    Very well said!

    Thus the notion that there is an actual “chasash chometz” with gebrokts today is silly both because of the metzius and becasue of the inconsitency in how we treat this chasash chometz (though I dont blame you for not being willing to outright say that)

    “Now, some have the minhag to be machmir even though we grind the wheat better and have thinner matzah, and they keep the minhag as their ancestors kept it when there was a (remote and not halachically binding but real) possility of chometz.”

    yep. I have this minhag!

    Yehudonya

    “Could somebody explain why it’s OK to use keilim for gebrokts on the eighth day and then use them the next year on erev Pesach?”

    i can! becasue that is the minhag!!! The very same minhag that assers gebrokts allows the kelim the following year!

    ” It’s not a full 12 months. Is it miktzas hachodesh k’kulo?”

    Interestingly some only eat Gebrokts on acharon shel Pesach when the following year is a ibbur yahr so that there are (at least)12 full months until the next PEsach. Nitei Gavriel is a great source for minhagim in general particularly among various chasisdish groups (I dont have it in front of me, but If youd like Id be happy to provide details)

    #1149953

    thank you neville for being the only person who seems to know the difference between disregarding information without disregarding the person giving it (in a way that turns my stomach. and the “who me?” that goes along with it is depressing).

    Maybe when pesach is over and the yetzer hora lessens his grip on pushing us away from the potential kedusha of the yom, the atmosphere here will change. til then, I will find somewhere else to be.

    #1149954
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    we should all be buying only Empire/OU chicken, or maybe Nathan’s or whatever because all our chumros regarding hidurim in Kashrus for chicken are driving up the cost for other’s that can’t afford it –as the Kosher market isn’t all that big. And if we all patronized the cheaper brands they would have a larger market share and could presumably lower their prices even further.

    I couldnt have said it better myself. Cheaper prices mean more people will be able to keep the halachas.

    #1149955

    Gebrochts is not more chamur than tarfus. Therefore, if the keilim have not been used for hot Gebrochts within 24 hours, it is mutar.

    You’re not allowed to cook in treif pots.

    #1149956

    Ubiquitin, so you’re saying that keeping minhag is silly? I don’t get it.

    #1149957

    Gamanit, the point I’ve been making is that the minhag isn’t to treat it as chometz, the minhag is to treat it as a chashash chometz, and therefore to rely on factors which are shittos brought in poskim which we otherwise (on real issur) don’t pasken like.

    #1149958
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    SY

    I am aware this is the internet and trolling each other is part of the game. It actually doesnt bother me

    #1149959

    you have said that before, but as i tell my children and students when they display these same behaviors we have an obligation to treat people respectfully because that’s what Hashem wants from us for the sake of our own neshama and development regardless of how it is received.

    #1149960

    I don’t think anyone disregarded the person, just the baseless argument. I feel bad if someone can’t see that.

    #1149961
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It also helps this website is moderated, as there is one individual who i would have a very differnet reaction to if it was un-moderated or would simply block if there was an option here to do that

    #1149962
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    “Ubiquitin, so you’re saying that keeping minhag is sily? I don’t get it.”

    no chas veshalom! As Ive said before in this thread (and others) keeping minhagim is very important.

    What I said (or meant) is the minhag is silly. However, I believe even silly minhagim should be kept, especially when it come to Pesach.

    another (less controversial?) example si putting aside keleim that fall on floor. It makes absolutely no sense halachicly. And is a textbook example of silliness yet those who have this minhag (I dont) should keep on doing it.

    #1149963

    That’s how minhagim develop – people take on a valid chumra, and when the underlying reason becomes null, the minhag remains. There’s nothing silly about it.

    (I’ve seen the hakpadah on keilim which fell in the floor and can only guess at the origin, and don’t know if it has the status of a minhag.)

    #1149964
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Rav Pam put it best. Do as you want, take care not to shtech anyone else. And that goes both ways. If my chumros or kulos do not affect anyone else, there’s no problem. If the sole problem is that I’m more Machmir and I’m not “in-your-face” there should be no problem.

    #1149965

    Isn’t it wonderful, though, that there’s such a wide selection of treats that are gluten free for those who can’t tolerate gluten?

    #1149966
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “we should all be buying only Empire/OU chicken”

    I was told that the OU brought in the Nirbater Rav Shlita to be in charge of the kashrus on poultry.

    #1149967
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Mw13- “the problem” isn’t that people don’t bruk. The problem per the op is that there are people using an important albeit silly minhag as an excuse or reason to hurt people. Hataras nedarim works, solves the problem, and unlike the options, is muttar (no pun intended).

    #1149968

    Who’s using their minhag as an excuse to hurt others? They’re just trying to keep their minhag.

    Honestly, I don’t know if hataras nedarim is the solution to the gebrokts issue or not, but if in-laws are so selfish that they won’t accommodate their children’s minhag, there’s a much deeper issue than gebrokts.

    #1149969
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    but if in-laws are so selfish that they won’t accommodate their children’s minhag

    Why do you assume the in-laws are the ones who must do the accomodation. Maybe the children are the ones who should do the accomodating

    #1149970

    Because someone who eats gebrokts is allowed to eat non-gebrokts, but someone who doesn’t eat gebrokts doesn’t eat gebrokts.

    #1149971

    It should also be noted that the eitzah of being mattir neder is not at all poshut.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&st=&pgnum=367&hilite=

    #1149972
    mw13
    Participant

    SL:

    The funny thing is, your comments about me have been far more personal than my comments about zahavasdad. You have accused me of using zdad “as target practice”, of “disregarding” him personally, and insinuated that I am motivated by “the yetzer hara”. (All of which I categorically deny, btw.) I accused zdad only of advancing an argument that he himself does not believe in (which I stand by).

    Now, I must admit, I am somewhat tempted to throw your accusations right back at you. Perhaps I should accuse you of “using me as target practice because you understand all these comments to be attacks on people , and since you know for a fact you aren’t mistaken its almost an obligation; I think Hashem gives extra points for that”. Of being unable “to know the difference between disregarding information and disregarding the person giving it, in a way that turns my stomach”. To insinuate that you are not living up to what “i tell my children and students when they display these same behaviors; that we have an obligation to treat people respectfully because that’s what Hashem wants from us”. And of suggesting that “when pesach is over and the yetzer hora lessens his grip” on you then maybe, just maybe, you can be reasonable.

    But I won’t.

    Because even though I by no means appreciate you casting aspersions on my intentions, I am still able to recognize that you were not attempting to attack me personally. That you have a right to disagree with everything I say, and not have your comments misconstrued as “disregarding people”.

    But I’d appreciate if that same favor was extended to me.

    zahavasdad:

    there is one individual who i would have a very differnet reaction to if it was un-moderated

    I, for one, am glad that this site’s mods do indeed enforce some basic civility; it enables us (at least theoretically) to actually discuss issues instead of just calling each other names.

    frumnotyeshivish:

    Mw13- “the problem” isn’t that people don’t bruk. The problem per the op is that there are people using an important albeit silly minhag as an excuse or reason to hurt people.

    No, that’s your spin on the OP. What the OP was actually dealing with was the possible inability of a person to eat by his in-laws due to differences in minhagim. Nobody is using any minhag to hurt anybody else, unless you buy zdad’s theory.

    DY:

    but if in-laws are so selfish that they won’t accommodate their children’s minhag, there’s a much deeper issue than gebrokts.

    +1. I hope that most people consider having their children by them for yomtov is a higher priority than having matazah meal.

    #1149973

    But I won’t.

    sure you did. and if i ever choose to speak condescendingly and mockingly to someone based on his opinions, faulty or otherwise, then I would respect the fact that you are defending him. and I’d appreciate if that same favor was extended to me.

    you seem to be confused about the difference between instigating and defending. But don’t worry, you are in good company. This is waht seems to be confusing – If you are sitting on a bench and i spit at you and then your friend spits at me, your friend and I are not both guilty of the same behaviors.

    and btw, thanks for that dvar Torah, it was great.

    #1149974
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    OK well Pesach is over. We have our beer; we don’t have to be cranky anymore, or “motivated by the yetzer harah.”

    I have been reading the CR for years (well before I started posting), and I know that Syag Lchochma is one of the kindest and most reasonable posters here. His/her last comment was a bit ambiguous; I’m not entirely sure if I’m being criticized sarcastically or actually lauded. If it’s the former, then I’m honestly sorry if I offended anyone (especially Zahavasdad who seems to be the center of this discussion now). If it was actual praise, then I don’t see how my comment was much nicer than any of mw’s. I really hope no argument persists between mw and Syag because I feel like we’re all really on the same side.

    Mw and DY’s posts are perfectly reasonable and understandable given the vitriol that’s been thrown out against a respectable minhag on this thread. I think it’s really admirable to see posters putting significant time into defending a custom that isn’t even their own.

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