May 1, 2016 5:00 am at 5:00 am #1149975kapustaParticipant
Mw, I didnt quite get the beginning of that post but I just wanted to thank you for the tones of shalom.
I was very upset by the feel of certain posts (not mentioning names) and as a spectator, the holier than thou becomes very unpleasant sometimes “in the name of Halacha”. A personal request to please read and reread to see how some posts look to everyone else.
Ok, back to cleanupMay 1, 2016 5:16 am at 5:16 am #1149976
Thank you, NC.May 1, 2016 5:24 am at 5:24 am #1149977benignumanParticipant
Mikar hadin, bliyos from an aino ben yomo pot are mutar. We don’t do it l’chatchila but the food is not treif. If the people doing the cooking don’t have any issue with gebrochts, the person who is makpid can eat because after the fact the food would be mutar.May 1, 2016 5:44 am at 5:44 am #1149978
If you are sitting on a bench and i spit at you and then your friend spits at me, your friend and I are not both guilty of the same behaviors.
Agreed (although two wrongs still don’t make a right). But here’s the thing – nowhere did I spit at zdad. Sure, I vehemently disagreed with his opinion, but I did not insult him, I did not “target” him personally, and I did not cast aspersions as to what his motives are.
Here in the CR, sometimes the the more “left-wing” posters can be a bit quick to assume that the “right-wingers” are attacking somebody personally when that’s not necessarily the case. (And the RWers are indeed sometimes a bit quick to assume the LWers are attacking articles of faith or practices which they hold dear.) And while neither of these generalizations have no basis in reality, I strongly believe that each post and each poster should be evaluated and responded to based on their own merits.
I enjoy an intellectual back and forth as much (if not more) than the next CRer; especially when we’re discussing things that actually matter. I am passionate about what I believe in, and I will defend it accordingly. But nowhere did I mean for this conversation, or any other, to turn into personal mud-slinging. I thought I had made that clear till now, in this topic and in every other; but if not, then let this clear the water.
I really hope no argument persists between mw and Syag
+1May 1, 2016 5:47 am at 5:47 am #1149979
Thank you for the undeserved but kind words.
or “motivated by the yetzer harah.”
I can’t think this was something to make light of, sorry
or actually lauded.
no argument persists between mw and Syag because I feel like we’re all really on the same side.
no argument persists unless one of us persists arguing. so i guess the answer is no. but i dont know what side you think we are both on, im not on any side
given the vitriol that’s been thrown out against a respectable minhag
yes, unfortunately the one who threw out the vitriol was dropped for sport shooting. But that will be disagreed with and start a whole nother mess so i wasnt bothering with it. im only saying it because you sound sincere and it really bothers me when we lose our perspective of how to respond in the name of defending Torah.
I don’t believe anyone is defending Torah unless they are clear that that is what they are doing. Sarcastic jokes and remarks toward a PERSON who made a heretical remark is not the same as defending Torah. But i have said this a million times and its invisible. then i get falsely accused of siding with the person im defending because its so hard for some people to see the difference. and in ten minutes ill probably be sorry i said it again because if people cant ‘hear’ what you are saying, i probably am wrong for trying.May 1, 2016 5:49 am at 5:49 am #1149980
Benignuman, yes. I thought you meant muttar to cook.May 1, 2016 5:50 am at 5:50 am #1149981
(although two wrongs still don’t make a right)
i know, and i try to remind myself when i forget. but i was really just trying to make a point
sometimes the the more “left-wing” posters can be a bit quick to assume that the “right-wingers” are attacking somebody personally
yes, this is a true statement. how does that apply to us?May 1, 2016 5:56 am at 5:56 am #1149982
Putting aside LW/RW, there were certainly posters too quick to assume that there were personal attacks.May 1, 2016 6:05 am at 6:05 am #1149983kapustaParticipant
I don’t believe anyone is defending Torah unless they are clear that that is what they are doing. Sarcastic jokes and remarks toward a PERSON who made a heretical remark is not the same as defending Torah
*applause* (and perhaps a chillul Hashem as well)May 1, 2016 6:10 am at 6:10 am #1149984JosephParticipant
Sarcastic jokes and remarks toward a PERSON who made a heretical remark is not the same as defending Torah.
“???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ?’ – ????: “???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????”.
(I hadn’t followed the back and forth sufficiently to know who is being referred to, so my comment is limited to only the quote in its own context.)May 1, 2016 6:10 am at 6:10 am #1149985
thanks kapusta! coming from you that means a lot.
Neville – so is this prophetic or a mere coincidence?
then i get falsely accused of siding with the person im defending
sometimes the the more “left-wing” posters can be a bit quick to assume that the “right-wingers” are attacking somebody personally when that’s not necessarily the case.May 1, 2016 6:12 am at 6:12 am #1149986Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
If an anti-Semite writes an essay arguing why Jews are wrong in every way, we would probably feel personally offended even if not mentioned by name.
If someone wrote an essay arguing why all Ashkenazi or Sephardi Minhagim are wrong, those of that minhag would probably feel personally offended even if not mentioned by name.
If (like what seems to be happening here) some Ashkenazim who eat gebrokts argue that all those who avoid gebrokts are categorically wrong, those who are machmir will feel personally offended. I 100% sympathize with those who took personal offense here.
Just observe, there have been several posters here attacking the overall custom of not eating gebrokts. Yet, NOBODY here has made a blanket criticism of those who eat gebrokts; it has only been the criticism of those maligning others’ minhagim.May 1, 2016 6:20 am at 6:20 am #1149987
yes neville, i agree that if that happened than those would be the responses. i also disagree about what was attacked. but thats my personal take. And right now im just waiting for mw to lamely tell me that really he wasnt calling me left wing at all he was just bringing in that example arbitrarily. cuz im tired of being accused of having left wing hashkofos every time i insist people should be treated respectfully. is there some reason why the self proclaimed”right wingers” think that insisting on respect is something only “left wingers” do?
At this point i am highly offended.May 1, 2016 6:24 am at 6:24 am #1149988
SL, I don’t think you’re siding with zdad. I think it’s pretty clear you have not voiced an opinion on the discussion vis-a-vis gebrokts.
But I do think you assumed me to be attacking zdad personally (and therefore responded, to some extent, in kind) mistakenly. Sure, I vehemently opposed his arguments; but that it not the same as attacking somebody personally.May 1, 2016 6:28 am at 6:28 am #1149989
mw – yes, you have clarified that, im talking about your ‘left wing’ reference. care to explain that?May 1, 2016 6:31 am at 6:31 am #1149990
right now im just waiting for mw to tell me that really he wasnt calling me left wing at all he was just bringing in that example arbitrarily
Arbitrarily is a bit strong; I was pointing out that posters who are more RW are sometimes assumed to be attacking people, and posters who are more LW are sometimes assumed to be attacking beliefs/practices. Now, that assuming is usually done by whoever it is that they’re arguing with – which is usually members of the other camp.
But rest assured, neither the RW nor the LW have a monopoly on mistaken assumptions.
At this point i am highly offended
You take offense rather easily, don’t you? Both for yourself, and for others…May 1, 2016 6:33 am at 6:33 am #1149991
you havent really answered. was your point that my assumptions that you were jumping come from being left wing?May 1, 2016 6:35 am at 6:35 am #1149992
When you put it like that, no.May 1, 2016 6:35 am at 6:35 am #1149993
how about if im NOT left wing and i just dont like seeing people jump on people?
You take offense rather easily, don’t you? Both for yourself, and for others…
aaah, back to the “mud slinging”, got it.May 1, 2016 6:42 am at 6:42 am #1149994
how about if im NOT left wing and i just dont like seeing people jump on people?
Then you should still make sure somebody is actually jumping on somebody else before you rush in and tackle the perceived offender.
I resent the reference
Suffice to say (I hope) that it was not an integral part of my point, and I was not trying to “explain” anything with it.May 1, 2016 6:42 am at 6:42 am #1149995
if you think that getting offended by someone calling you left-wing is being oversensitive than we are pages apart. maybe even chapters.
you are welcome to say you did not attack anyone. you are wrong to say that i did not make sure someone was being jumped on before i supposedly rushed in to tackle (I guess your not getting personal rule is wearing off)
The fact that you dont see something, does not make it not there. and there are quite a few of us “over here” who see it differently than you do. which is fine. the only thing you can speak on is what you meant, and i accept that. your perception of other’s posts is no more or less valid than mine.May 1, 2016 6:45 am at 6:45 am #1149996
…than we are pages apart. maybe even chapters.
Yes, that is quite probable.
(BTW, I never intended to call you LW; that phrase was you incidentally, as I have explained. I do not know you or your positions, so I’m not going to be pigeonholing them.)
Have a good night.May 1, 2016 6:52 am at 6:52 am #1149997🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
Daas Yachid- if it were even a chashash of true chametz chassidim wouldn’t eat it on the last day. As far as dishes that fall on the floor, the reason people don’t reuse that is because people can possibly track in chometz with their shoes and make the floor chametzdig. How can you wash a spoon that fell on a possibly chametzdige floor in a pesachdige sink? My family’s solution is to wash it in a sink not typically used for food items (like the laundry sink) being careful not to let it touch the sink while washing it with cold water.May 1, 2016 6:59 am at 6:59 am #1149998
except for this one common thread:
I am passionate about what I believe in, and I will defend it accordingly.
🙂May 1, 2016 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1149999
that phrase was you incidentally,
I do not know you or your positions, so I’m not going to be pigeonholing them.
i really appreciate that, and think others should take a lesson from it
and honestly, i am who i am regardless of what i am called online, but here in the CR that term is never meant as a compliment….May 1, 2016 7:29 am at 7:29 am #1150000
if it were even a chashash of true chametz chassidim wouldn’t eat it on the last day.
If it weren’t a chashash, they would be allowed to eat it even on the first seven. It is a slight chashash, so they don’t eat it on the first seven, which are d’Oraisa, but the eighth day is d’rabbanon.
The teshuvah I linked from R’ Moshe Feinstein makes the point that if there were no legitimacy whatsoever to the minhag, it wouldn’t be binding (he is referring to what the questioner seems to say was a minhag to not eat gebrokts even AFTER Pesach), but if there’s even a very slight chashash (which there is), the minhag is binding.
The relevant quotes:
????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???”? ????? ?”? ??”? ??”? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????
???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????, ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ???”? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ????? ?????May 1, 2016 9:32 am at 9:32 am #1150001frumnotyeshivishParticipant
@dy and here I thought that R Moshe’s last paragraph was most relevant. Ha!May 1, 2016 10:25 am at 10:25 am #1150002
I have never given up on my opiinon, however there comes a time where arguments go in circles and its pointless to continue any further. Nobody is going to change their mindsMay 1, 2016 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #1150003
FNY, the part where he says that under typical circumstances, hataras nedarim doesn’t work? (It only works if he has permanently moved to a place where the minhag is to btok, or if it wasn’t a minhag in his family for generations.)May 1, 2016 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #1150004
Zdad, why do you still hold of your opinion when you’ve been demonstrated to be wrong?
I’ll note that you haven’t yet answered my simple question: do you think the people who have a minhag to eat gebrokts should abandon their minhag?May 1, 2016 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1150005CTLAWYERParticipant
The grandchildren are up and I asked them what they wanted for breakfast today. I expected they’d want pancakes, toast, bagels, cereal.
NO, the overwhelming request was for matzo meal pancakes, and matzo brei made with egg matzo.
A long Pesach at the grandparents and they were missing those foods they consider a Pesach treat. I grew up in a home where these items were served. We eat gebrokhts, but somehow each year serve less and less as new members join the family and come from homes that don’t eat them.
Just because it’s fallen out of favor, or those who don’t eat gebrokts are growing to be a larger part of the community doesn’t mean I’ll abandon our family minhag.May 1, 2016 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1150006
You proved nothing, You just proved you had a differnt opinion than me and saw a differnt outcome and that you saw things differentlyMay 1, 2016 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #1150007
I’ll note that you haven’t yet answered my simple question: do you think the people who have a minhag to eat gebrokts should abandon their minhag?
If a minhag is done without affecting other, Gezen De-Heh eat all the non-gebroachs you want. However if you are affecting others, maybe you should re-think
And just an added fact, many people took upon themselves the minhag/chumra of not eating Gebrachs very recently (After WW II). Many people became more frum than their parents etc and took this upon themselves so its not like other minhagimMay 1, 2016 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1150008
Most people have the minhag from before the war. It’s not a chumra that I’ve seen individuals take upon themselves. I’m sure there are some, but it’s a small minority. So, they are not allowed to change, in most cases.
Besides, your assertion that it affects anyone else is baseless. You even reported that you found the cheaper gebrokts cookies in your store! The companies which I’ve seen make them, Streit’s and Manischewitz, make them in huge quantities, so the price isn’t affected upwards by the competition.
Mw13 ably demonstrated that your logic (which is wrong anyhow) could precisely be used to show that there should only be non-gebrokts sold, which again, you never rebutted.May 1, 2016 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1150009oomisParticipant
I think none of us is qualified to answer this question. It is very personal and nogeya to that person and should be discussed with one’s Rov.
On a brighter note, I just wanted to wish everyone a gut voch. I had a fabulous Pesach with my house filled non-stop with my noisy, delicious grandkids all yom tov. It was hectic and exhausting, and I loved every moment. Especially when my kinehora adorable three year old grandson asked me, “Bubby can I come live here all the time?” When I said that mommy and daddy might be sad if he did that he earnestly asked me to move in with THEM. Now, there is NO better feeling than that. I am truly sad that Pesach is over. (I know I do not speak for the majority of women…)May 1, 2016 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1150010
” I am truly sad that Pesach is over. (I know I do not speak for the majority of women…) “
I’m with you 🙁May 1, 2016 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1150011
” I am truly sad that Pesach is over.
We rushed to get Dunkin Donuts last night.May 1, 2016 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1150012
We rushed to get Dunkin Donuts last night.
The inyan of getting chometz on Motzaei Pesach is actually to show the chavivus of Pesach, that we refrain from chometz only because it’s Hashem’s will, despite the fact that we like chometz. Some have the minhag of making havdalah on beer.
We got pizza last night (popa never showed up, so I had to go out on my own), but we didn’t rush – it was a good motivation to turn back over quickly.May 1, 2016 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1150013
“We rushed to get Dunkin Donuts last night.”
you and about a million other people 🙂May 1, 2016 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1150014
I heard people were running to the Pizza stores too. Alas the ones here were not open and you have to wait until today to get the Pizza.
Only a few pizza stores were open last night I think mostly in ManhattanMay 1, 2016 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1150015
i dont know if any of our pizza stores were open. i think one was but that you had to order before pesach. but that may be a rumor. it does not take us more than an hour or so to put everything away and then my kids usually go to the grocery store to buy something to eat. One of my kids called me close to 2 am that he was waiting for the sushi to be brought out. Don’t know if it ever was….
since i dont eat chamets anyway it is all somewhat anti climactic for me… but i am mildly grateful that my kids are no longer “hungry”.May 1, 2016 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1150016
Alas the ones here were not open and you have to wait until today to get the Pizza.
Unfortunately, that had to be instituted in some places because it was too hard for the hechsher to police the management from cheating on the zmanim.May 1, 2016 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1150017
yeah, well we’ll just leave that comment to speak for itselfMay 1, 2016 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1150018
What do you mean?May 1, 2016 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1150019JosephParticipant
Perhaps this explains why, when in shidduchim, many people look for a shidduch with a family that overall shares their minhagim.May 1, 2016 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1150020Little FroggieParticipant
Oomis, same here, we’re all sad it want to quickly. I mean, after all the preparations and cleaning… y’know, we’d like a chance to savor it a bit more…
As far as the lines of the utterly famished craving masses.. it doesn’t sit well with me.. I’m not to judge anyone, but.. so many of us.. with such a CRAVING.. to wait on line.. out the doors?!? That’s what our fathers did years ago, when they were craving life itself!! Isn’t that a bit too much?!?!? It’s certainly no mitzvah to eat matzah after Pesach.. but a bit of longing.. contemplating.. lingering echoes of this most beautiful Yom Tov. To dash out for a mouthful of chamezt? Isn’t it a bit like the ones who are going to run out of their Sukkah and kick it down?May 1, 2016 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1150021
im not sure thats completely fair. kicking down a sukka? there are people who don’t eat eggs or yogurt or leben or cheese and they are legitimately hungry on Pesach. Once Pesach is over, and they have helped clean up and shlepped boxes, it s fair for them to want something to eat. It isnt a stira on Pesach. no more than eating after a fast negates the reflection done during the fast. Much of the pesach food is very expensive and very limited. unless you want to eat salami and leftover chicken 24/4 there isnt always something to eat for everyone.
In my personal experiences with people who “run out” for food,(tho I am not myself one of them) i dont hear a negative word about pesach or the yontiff or the process. its about food. hunger (in the first world sense) and wanting something to eat.May 1, 2016 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1150022Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
The Rema advocated making Havdallah on beer after Pesach; needless to say, I don’t think he was the “kicking the sukkah down” type.
Syag, I personally didn’t see mw’s left wing comment as an attack on you. I think we all get that you’re defending ZD the person, not the stance. But, like I said in my above post, one doesn’t have to call someone else out by name to offend them. People on this thread have been calling a minhag silly and stupid. Frankly, if we didn’t have halacha and YWN mods to stop us, my responses to the vitriol against a minhag expressed here would probably be a lot less cordial than mw’s.May 1, 2016 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1150023
BTW, ZD, pizza shops not opening on Motzaei Yom Tov was discussed here:May 1, 2016 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1150024
Neville – there really was no other way to read it. he said that i was reading into the comment as an attack, and the NEXT sentence was that left wingers can be quick to assume that right wingers are attacking. But i would rather drop it because its a no win. I hate nitpicking conversations and he has already stated he didnt mean it.
As for the rest of your post, we are really talking about two different things. Firstly, and i really wasnt interested in opening this can of worms you say “People on this thread have been calling a minhag silly”. well guess what? Zdad wasn’t the one who did that. it was frumnotyeshivish. zdad was off on some crazy tangent about prices and imposing costs.
and lastly, you are wrong that we all get i am defending zdad the person not the stance. and really, its not about defending him as much as being sick of the way people who claim to be(or possibly are) more learned can treat other people (not just him) who were raised with less information or don’t understand the things you spent decades learning about. even on things that are benign, the assumptions are there and the behavior is really unbecoming of people who seem to be learned (although i have my own theories about people who seem to be learned spending time online).
This behavior turns people away and gives the very false impression that this is how all of US right wingers believe and behave. And it’s wrong. but because it is so ingrained there are a handful of posters who are oblivious to their inappropriate attitude and behavior and are willing to deny it purely on the premise that they themselves don’t see it.
THAT is the problem. And the fact that it misrepresents Torah life and makes a sort of chilul Hashem in a way is why I can’t let it go. But it is a literal blind spot for them so now i will get comments about how Hashem really wants them to make annonymous people feel like dirt because their interpretation of the persons intent is the right one.
If the comments were REALLY and sincerely to the vitriol, then flatbusher would have been the target, not some stupid conversation about pesach food that legitimately isn’t anti religion as it is just silly.
Im really tired. i really didn’t want to bother with any of this because blindspots are blindspots. I have mine too but that’s why i work very hard to listen to the responses i get and when i hear responses that dont match my comments i run them past other people (not like minded people) for perspective.
i don’t care who agrees, i just want us to be more of what Hashem wants of us. And if you find apikorsus, and KNOW itis apikorsus and not lack of exposure, understanding, opportunity etc, then go for it. But if you are in an online forum, then explain yourself. Throw in a comment that says, “I cannot sit back and let Hashem’s Torah/minhagim/leaders be spoken about that way.”
Do you honestly think that when you stab someone for a reason that is only obvious to a smaller group of people that you aren’t causing collateral damage?
P.S. If the response to the vitriol was to defend minhagim, it would probably have gone thru even if it wasn’t cordial.
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