Cantorial Music

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  • #667818
    cantoresq
    Member

    cherrybim- that’s how I understand it, at least in terms of the “frumkeit” issue. there might be other reasons, i.e. chazaka or “Ein mesalkin. . .” to favor you hypothetical outvoted chazzan.

    #667819
    cherrybim
    Participant

    cantoresq – Care to cite where the Chazon Ish and Rema paskin that one may davin in a place that hires a chazar fresser chazzan as a shaliach tzibur because he/she has a terrific inspiring voice?

    #667820
    cantoresq
    Member

    cherrybim, that’s not what I said. I said that if the chazar fresser, to use your words, is merutze l’hehal, he is kasher to serve as the shaliach tzibur. This used to be a big issue. Schuls would engage chazzanim who becuase of their fame and ability increased ticket sales over the holidays, the rabbis found objectionable, but there was nothing to do about it. I was hired once by a schul and a small group of members objected as I was, at the time, under thirty years old and unmarried. The rabbi paskened that since the majority of the congregation wants me to daven. . . I don’t have the exact cites for either here, but both being it down in Hilchot Rosh Hashana.

    #667821
    davy
    Member

    it’s a pretty unsettling feeling when the baal tefilah is lacking in shmiras hamitzvos and he’s getting all hartzig at the amud. unless the chazzan is an ehrliche yid, such as chaim adler, i’d rather hear him on tape or in concert…

    #667822
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “I was, at the time, under thirty years old and unmarried. The rabbi paskened that since the majority of the congregation wants me to daven…”

    So cantoresq, you’re saying that hiring a chazzan that’s less than thirty years old and unmarried is the same as hiring a chazzan chazar fresser? That’s what the Chazon Ish and Rema paskins?

    #667823
    cantoresq
    Member

    Cherrybim I simply reported my recollection of the Halacha, the accuracy of which no one disputes, and added a personal anecdote. The nterpretation is your own.

    #667824
    charliehall
    Participant

    Do we really require a shliach tzibbur to be of sound levels of observance and morality? I’ve been in many, many minyanim in which someone they’ve never seen before walks in and asks to daven from the amud because of a yahretzeit. I’ve never seen the request refused on an ordinary weekday unless someone else was celebrating a yahretzeit. How did they even know the guy is Jewish at all, much less shomer Shabat?

    #667825
    cherrybim
    Participant

    charliehall – Correct, except that the ordinary fellow has a chezkas kashrus. The chezkas kashrus goes out the window when the chazzan is a known non- observant.

    #667826
    davy
    Member

    it’s one thing if he approaches the amud humbly. here we’re talking about a grandiose performance at the amud, for someone who’s not shomer mitzvos it’s making a mockery of tefilah.

    #667828
    cherrybim
    Participant

    cantoresq – What do you think of a Rabbi who is not “fully observant”; same thing? By the way, nice choice of words to make your point of the frei chazzan; I prefer “chazar fresser”.

    #667829
    cantoresq
    Member

    EDITED

    cherrybim, there are myriad responsa on the issue of rabbis who are not fully observant of Halacha. The ones that sticks out in my mind are from the Chatham Sofer; one concerning a certain R. Ploni1, the other about Ploni2. Ploni1 comitted various ritual breaches. He talked while putting on tefillin, did not wash neigel vasser, spoke between netilat yadaiim and hamotzi and wrote gittin without the permission of the regional chief rabbi, R. Mordechai Benet. The Chatham sofer ruled that there is no basis to unfrock a rabbi based upon his personal conduct, no matter how offensive that conduct may be (it seems that these lapses, innocuous though they seem to us were a big deal to the community in question). The C.S. recomended that such a rabbi take a leave of absence and carefully think about his life and what he wants to do with it. But writing gittin without proper authorization was worthy of defrocking as such a mutinous act undermined the rabbinic hierarchy and rabbininc authority. The responsa dealing with Chorin deals more with his insiduous influence on Judaism and does not address his persoanl observances with any Halachik consequence.

    I’m not advocating that non-religious people be hired as chazzanim. I think all clergy should strive to the highest level of Halachik observance. But the fact that some cantors may have fallen short of the mark during a brief period of our history should not serve as the basis to derisively dismiss the entire field of chazzanut as devoid of religious significance. To do so, unfairly paints the entire cantorate and its history with far too broad a brush.

    #667830
    davy
    Member

    can we keep this thread on the topic it was started as, and not get pulled down into the old, typical,stale debate of chazzanim that weren’t frum? let’s keep it fresh.

    anyone have a favorite chazzan or shtickel………ANYONE?

    #667831

    can we keep this thread on the topic it was started as

    Unfortunately not. Threads here are open to whatever the posters wish to make of them, up to a point. If the posters wish to limit a thread to only answer the specific request of the OP, that’s fine also.

    #667832

    Besides the fact that in this particular instance the posts have been EXACTLY to the point of the original post!

    Here’s a quote: “I would like to know why no one is interested in chazzunes?”

    #667833
    cherrybim
    Participant

    “The Chatham sofer ruled that there is no basis to unfrock a rabbi based upon his personal conduct, no matter how offensive that conduct may be”

    cantoresq – Do you think infrequent distractions that may cause someone to talk while putting on tefillin or not to wash neigel vasser or to speak between netilas yadayim and hamotzi is the same as being a 24/7 chazzer fresser? Are you saying that the Chasam Sofer would paskin that there is no basis to unfrock a chazer fresser Rabbi?

    #667834
    davy
    Member

    mod, do you think people are not interested in chazzanus because the davening takes too long and the chazzanim weren’t frum?

    if anything it’s oppisite, since they don’t like chazzanus, they think it takes too long. i’ve been able to sit through hours of davening listening to stern, adler, miller, herstik, motzen and others….

    the frumkiet issue is an indipendent one and does not affect it someone likes chazzanus in general.

    #667835

    Since you asked me in particular:

    I am not interested in being entertained during the time of Tefillah. If I hear the Sliach Tzibbur begin chassanes I walk out. My impression usually, is that the “chazzan” is a big baal gaiva who wishes to impress everyone one with his great skill, and hasn’t the least thoughts of HaKodeshBorchu while he is performing, and hasn’t the least care about tircha d’tzibur.

    I could be wrong, but that has always been my impression, and although I generally try to work on my Yetzer when I am in a situation of anger, in this case I’d rather skip the nosoyan.

    #667836
    haifagirl
    Participant

    My impression usually, is that the “chazzan” is a big baal gaiva who wishes to impress everyone one with his great skill

    I’ve heard those chazzanim daven. And I’ve heard chazzanim with just as much skill, but with kavanah. That is a beautiful davening. And you can tell the difference.

    #667837

    Ive never heard the second kind. I’ve heard beautifully melodic Davening. People don’t generally call that “chazzanus” chazzanus to me generally implies a certain imitation operatic like tone with a huge increase in the number of syllables, drawn out words, and general extreme slowness.

    Perhaps we are all talking about different understandings of what “chazzanus” is.

    But what I call chazzanus…belongs in concert halls, auditoriums, and synagogues, not in a Shul, not in a Beis Ha Knesses.

    #667838
    davy
    Member

    my point is, if you enjoyed the art you would be more tolerant to them. i’m not saying you’re wrong in your appraisal of them, i’m just saying you would still enjoy it.

    halfagirl, i agree, you can tell the difference

    #667839

    If I appreciated the finer points of musical theory, perhaps I might enjoy the very skilled Chazzan, yes.

    In concert, in the concert hall.

    #667840
    cantoresq
    Member

    cherrybim, you asked me my view on the fitness of rabbis who transgress the Torah. I provided some source material based on which I would be guided in forming my views. You now want me to extrapolate that information to cantors who might transgress the Torah, despite my unequivocal statement that I believe cantors should be Torah observant. What exactly is your point? I’ve stated in the past that my understanding of the relevant Halacha is the “merutzeh l’kehal” overrides all other considerations. I’ve provided both history to that statement as well as a personal anecdote. I also recognize that the standard can go the other way. Communities are free to set standards of religious conduct they will not accept in a cantor. One who violates those standards is by definition not merutze l’kehal. I was once denied the amud in the Desewffy ut. schul in Budapest the shabbos I had yahrzeit for my father because I shaved during the three weeks. Upset though I was, there was nothing for me to do about it, (except to daven in the Vasvari Pal ut. schul, where they were a bit more appreciative of my cantorial arts and forgiving of my shave.)If you do not want to listen to a cantor who falls short of your religious standards, feel free not to. But do not conflate your religious practices into a basis to dismiss a musical heritage that is nearly 2000 years old.

    #667843
    cherrybim
    Participant

    Since the Mod deleted my last response to cantoresq, I’ll change course.

    There’s a great on-line internet site for chazzonis called: The Charlie Bernhaut Show. The program comes on at 9PM every Monday evening. The first hour is a mixture of all kinds of Jewish music and the second hour is exclusively for chazzonis.

    #667844
    cantoresq
    Member

    Again, cherrybim, precisely what is your point? If you are suggesting that frum Jews not listen to non-Orthodox cantors, feel free to limit yourself in that fashion. But that point of view has nothing to offer the discussion of the place of chazzanut in the Orthodox synagogue.

    Your post however does raise something of a related issue. Many people deride chazzanut as not being truly Orthodox. The evidence for that assertion is that Orthodox schuls don’t, by and large, have chazzanim, and as such chazzanim are part of non-Orthodox movements. But the truth is that Orthodoxy in post WWII, the Young Israel movement and the newly emergin yeshiva movement in particular, eschewed chazzanut in their schuls; thus creating the notion that chazzanut is foreign to Orthodoxy. As such, people put the cart before the horse as it were. Traditional synagogue organization includes a chazzan. For various reasons, some good some bad, America abandoned that tradition.

    #667845
    Bemused
    Participant

    Hey, just wanted to put in my less than 2 cents here, because I referenced this thread-topic in another thread recently:

    Although cantorial music is not my cup of tea, I have family members who do appreciate it in some way, so I appreciate the fact that it can be appreciated!

    #667846
    cherrybim
    Participant

    Cantoresq – Interesting.

    And where I grew up (45,000 Jewish Population), of the two large Orthodox shuls, one always had a renowned chazzan and the other one had a chazzan for the Yomim Norayim and Tovim. The large Conservative one had a renowned Orthodox chazzan and in the winter months, after the Friday night meal, many of us Orthodox would go to the Conservative synagogue to hear the chazzan.

    I also remember years back that at Temple Emmanuel in Boro Park, the balcony would be full on Shabbos mornings with frum men including many chassidim who wanted to hear Dovid Koussevitzky.

    .

    #667847
    cantoresq
    Member

    cherrybim, I envy your childhood. Who were the chazzanim of your youth? I well remember walking with my father on Yom Kippur during the break to hear the chazzan in the Conservative schul for a few minutes. It was rather amusing when we arrived, my father unshaven, in his big tallis and kittel. He looked rather out of place. But the ushers never gave us too hard a time. Indeed chassidim would fill up the balcony of Emmanuel in Boro Park wen Dovid Koussevitzky was there.

    Regarding b’shita non-Orhthodox chazanim, where do you draw the line? You once made reference to Orthodox chazzanim who work in non-Orthodox schuls. How do you diffrentiate between the two?

    #667848
    cherrybim
    Participant

    The chazzanim were Lefkowitz, Shulhoff, Taube. Let’s not reveal the community, ok?

    #667849
    cantoresq
    Member

    They were/are great chazzanim; especially Taube. What do you do though with someone who grew up non-Orthodox and becomes a cantor out a real desire to do something Jewish with his life? He knows no better. It’s true, under certain circumstances, R. Yosef Dov Soleveitchik together with Rabbi Belkin did allow certain YU musmakhim to take non-Mechitza pulpits on the belief that the rabbi might be able to turn the schul around, or at least stem the tide. Generally these dispensations were for one year subject to reevaluation, and other conditions were often applied as well. The most famous example of a success of this notion is Lincoln Square Synagogue in NYC. When he was frst hired, R. Riskin did not daven in the schul. He davened at a hashkama minyan and then went there to give his sermon but functioned as the congregation’s rabbi in every other way. Eventually he created a vibrant and very important Orthodox schul; albeit one with a controversial mechitza. The heterim had varied success. Some schuls did become Orthodox, others made more limited changes, but did not take the “big jump” and the rabbis in question acted in kind. Some followed the drectives of the Rav and maintained a place in the Orthodox rabbinate, and others didn’t. Eventually such arrnagements became untenable as the chasm between Orthodoxy and Conservatism became too wide.

    #667850
    Jothar
    Member

    Like Cantoresq said, chazzanus is usually found in more modern shuls and the Conservative ones. Clearly it can’t be that inspirational.

    #667853
    cherrybim
    Participant

    Jothar – Funny how the Agudah have Chazzonim at their large functions.

    Go to any Chazzonis concert, with and without t’fila, and you’ll see a vast majority of chassidim; hardly what you would call modern Orthodox.

    All the great shuls, including the Safardeshe Shul in Boro Park had Chazzanim, hardly what you would call modern Orthodox.

    If chazzanis was inspirational then, it is inspirational now.

    EDITED

    #667854
    Jothar
    Member

    Chazzanim werwe a bigger deal when nobody has a siddur and needed the chazzan to be motzi them for shemoa esrei. the printing of siddurim changed all that. Chazzanus is enjoyable to some the way opera is to some and petcha is to others. Where some see petcha I see jellied calf’s foot. Where some hear chazzanus I hear “Pavarotti wannabe”. To each his own.

    #667855
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Like Cantoresq said, chazzanus is usually found in more modern shuls and the Conservative ones. Clearly it can’t be that inspirational.

    That’s one interpretation.

    Perhaps the people in non-chazzanus shuls are already inspired by the tefillah and don’t need the extra inspiration that comes from chazzanus, whereas the people in more modern and Conservative shuls do.

    #667856
    cantoresq
    Member

    Or perhaps chareidim are incapable of appreciating great synagogue music.

    #667857
    Jothar
    Member

    Or perhaps chareidim are aware that “great synagogue music” has nothing to do with praying to Hashem, which is what davening is supposed to be about. I go to a concert for music. I go to a synagogue to daven to Hashem.

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