October 11, 2011 12:27 am at 12:27 am #599897amusedParticipant
What should a Yid involved c’v in a car accident, minor with no injuries only property damage, late Erev Shabbos with the police taking their pretty time (as they generally do) to show up to write up the police accident report? Especially if the other party is not amenable to simply exchanging information. Obviously the law requires remaining at the scene until the police show up, but the Zman Shabbos won’t accomodate the police (and there is no where to stay in the area).October 11, 2011 1:31 am at 1:31 am #817069yitayningwutParticipant
It’s a good question. I do know that the Lakewood Police Department is supposedly prepared for such situations.October 11, 2011 1:40 am at 1:40 am #817070
If you leave, you could be liable for hit and run and go to Jail which is considered a Sakana.
I am assuming the other party was either not jewish or not religious and not in the mood to accomodate you.
The police need to be there to help determine faultOctober 11, 2011 2:49 am at 2:49 am #817071
The first and best Segulah is not to drive Erev Shabbos close to the z’man. When I was walking to Shul this past Erev Yom Kippur, I told my walking partner to stay wayy away from any car driven by Jewish drivers. You could see, even without looking at the driver, any car driven by Yidden, was going verry fast, and not even slowing down at a stop sign.October 11, 2011 5:15 am at 5:15 am #817072
I’m not sure what the question is. Obviously you cannot be Mechallel Shabbos. You must do whatever will avoid being Mechallel Shabbos.October 11, 2011 7:21 am at 7:21 am #8170732qwertyParticipant
Offer the other driver some money.October 11, 2011 10:19 am at 10:19 am #817074on the ballParticipant
In some places the law says it’s enough just to provide full details to the other party to avoid hit and run charges without having to wait for the police. So check out the law in your state.October 11, 2011 11:53 am at 11:53 am #817075amusedParticipant
It could happen with someone needing to drive over to the supermarket shortly before Shabbos for a needed food item or utensils for Shabbos (unexpected guests, etc).October 11, 2011 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #817076
Perfect question for your LOR.October 11, 2011 1:00 pm at 1:00 pm #817077mewhoParticipant
2q, i hope you are kidding. if someone is involved in a car accident the smartest and corect thing to do is call 911 and have a report filled out.otherwise someday the other driver can claim things that did not exist, most importantly that the person left the scene.
feel like gettting arrested for that? i would not want to.
follow the law…i’m pretty sure that your rabbi would feel that it is better than making a chilul Hashem by leaving the scene and then being arrested (perhaps in the middle of your Shabbos meal) when the cops run your plates and find you.October 11, 2011 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #817078yungerman1Participant
amused- I second ayc. This is not a question that you should be getting a “psak” from us bored souls in the CR. Ask your LOR.October 11, 2011 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #817079
I read about a case in Brooklyn recently. A man broke some minor offense (Like Jaywalking or something) on Shabbos and the cop insisted on giving him a ticket
As it was Shabbos he had no ID and the cop followed him home where his drivers license was. The cop gave him the ticket and made him sign it (You have to sign tickets to acknowlege receving them)October 11, 2011 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #817080
No Orthodox Rabbi would allow you to be Mechallel Shabbos.October 11, 2011 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #817081A Heimishe MomParticipant
I never considered the accident question, but I have considered the stuck in traffic situation. In addition to leaving as early as possible on Friday afternoon, I drive through more Jewish, populated, areas rather than the back roads so that in the event of traffic I can park and walk to the nearest shul.
As to a last minute errand – stick close enough to home that you could walk back if you have to!October 11, 2011 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #817082
That cop was reprimanded subsequently, IIRCOctober 11, 2011 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #817083yungerman1Participant
Dr. Seuss- Not necessarily true. Its possible he may allow to be oiver an issur d’Rabonon in certain situtations and locations. Which is why you need to always ask your LOR.October 11, 2011 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #817084
The OP’s case is of a minor accident with only property damage. While it is technically illegal to leave, the cops do not arrest people who left a fender-bender. At worst, it will cause the insurance companies to find him at fault for the accident (even if he wasn’t really at fault.) That is certainly not a reason you can C”V be Mechallel Shabbos for. And even IF it were a case where he could theoretically get arrested for leaving, that is still not a reason you can be Mechallel Shabbos C”V.
What I would suggest is that he leave, and on Motzei Shabbos go to the police precinct to explain and report the incident and why he had to leave for religious Sabbath observance.October 11, 2011 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #817085
Zahavasdad: You would have to refuse to sign. That is not a case of Sakanas Nefashos. Maybe if the cop threatened you with resisting arrest for refusing to sign then you could sign with a Shinui.October 11, 2011 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #817086
Sam: In that Shabbos jaywalking case, the cop threatened to arrest him if he didn’t sign. (It was actually on the street – he didn’t follow him home.) The Yid told the cop he couldn’t sign for religious reasons. (Eventually he unfortunately did under pressure.) It turned out the cop was a plain ‘ole anti-semite, as there hadn’t even been a jaywalking *ticket* issued in the entire precinct in at least over two years, let alone an arrest. (You don’t get arrested for jaywalking.) What was the cop suddenly making a federal case of a Yid crossing in middle of an empty street in a heavily Jewish neighborhood with no cars in sight? The cop got transferred out of the precinct he was working in, against his desires, as a penalty for what he did. Nevertheless, I still don’t see any justification for signing. Even if the cop put him in the car, he wouldn’t have been doing that (getting into the car) himself. The signing he is doing himself.October 11, 2011 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #817087
Dr. Seuss: There is decent reason to assume that being placed in prison constitutes a Sakanah. It certainly did in an unenlightened Europe. That was probably a real Sakanas Nefashos to be Oveir a D’Oraisa to avoid. Being put in prison in America probably isn’t. So that’s why I said “maybe” with a Shinui.October 11, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #817088
Sam: When you say “sakanah”, you are limiting it to a situation of “sakanos nefoshos”, correct?October 11, 2011 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #817089
Sakanah means “Afilu Safek Sakanas Nefashos”.October 11, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #817090
I think most could agree that spending Shabbos at Rikers Island is a Sakana Nefashos.October 11, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #817091
Sam: Hard to apply that to being taken to a Brooklyn police precinct or Central Booking.
ZD: Even an afternoon or day or two (way longer than needed to be bailed out), or even longer, at Rikers isn’t safek sakanas nefoshos.October 11, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #817092
Dr Seuess what would you do if you were OP and the other driver was dressed straight out of “Northern Manhattan” with a vehicle straight out of “Northern Manhattan” and didnt look like he was too happy.October 11, 2011 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #817093
I wouldn’t C”V be Mechallel Shabbos.October 11, 2011 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #817094
Wrong answer. You would (hopefully) call your Rov and ask what to do.October 11, 2011 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #817095
In a clear a case of no sofek sakanas nefoshos. And in the jaywalking incident, there was no opportunity to ask a Rov. The cop didn’t offer to let him go ask a shaila.October 11, 2011 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #817096
Well then I would hope that you would use your Seichel when a clearly anti-Semitic person with a gun wants you to do anything.October 11, 2011 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #817097
A NYC Police Officer (with a gun) threatening to arrest you unless you are Mechallel Shabbos? My choice is clear: Hashem first.October 11, 2011 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #817098
If you are in a situation where Hashem wants you to be Mechalel Shabbos then you are not putting Hashem first at all. Ask your Rov this (theoretical) case and then you can say “Hashem first” for listening to whatever he says.October 11, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #817099
There is no issue here that Hashem wants you to be Mechallel Shabbos for. There is no safek sakanos nefoshos. And often there is no opportunity to ask a rov on the spot.October 11, 2011 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #817100
“And often there is no opportunity to ask a rov on the spot.”
That’s why we’re preparing this question in advance and our LORs should be receiving a number of calls on the topic right about now.
It would be interesting to compare notes and see if they are in agreement paskening on this one…October 11, 2011 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #817101minyan galMember
You should give the name of the LOR you have phoned, so that some of them don’t get several calls on the same topic. I am sure that they are very busy preparing for Sukkot.October 11, 2011 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #817102
It does amaze me how many people drive to Shul Friday afternoon, park there car there, Walk home and drive back after Shabbos
If you can walk to and from shul Shabbos, you can walk there Friday nightOctober 12, 2011 12:06 am at 12:06 am #817103
Zahavasdad; Just for the record. (For the sake of accuracy, factuality and punctuality.) In NYC, you don’t have to sign a traffic violation ticket. And I’ve gotten some in my time. I remember the case that you’re referring to. There was a different chain of events than a mere traffic violation. The cop in question was one of the dumb ones. (And I have the utmost respect for the officers of the NYPD). He, stupidly and wrongfully was throwing his weight around. Our local assemblyman. The indefatigable Dov Hikind raised a big S—- about it with the Police Commissioner, the Hon. John Kelly and the beat walker (or, radio car traveler) was reprimanded.October 12, 2011 12:18 am at 12:18 am #817104
Dr. Seuss; There is one angle in this entire discussion that you haven’t explored. If the Yiddishe “Jaywalker” wouldn’t sign (due to a lack of having ID on him, according to that stupid, dumb anti-Semitic cop.) he was threatened to be arrested, where he would be committing more Chillul Shabbos. Plus. (This is a serious debate with the Poskim.) Anything other than “Ksav Ashuris” ??? ?????? is not a foregone conclusion that it is considered “Writing” on Shabbos.October 12, 2011 12:24 am at 12:24 am #817105
amused; I happen to live one half block away from a 24 hour supermarket and if I need something in an emergency, like with last minute guests for Shabbos. (As has happened during the last Hurricane, this past summer.) I can get it without driving, But there is another problem. There are tremendously long lines. And you would have to ask a “Shaila” if you’re allowed to finish your purchase before “Shkia”.October 12, 2011 2:21 am at 2:21 am #817106
metrodriver: In fact I did address that angle above. If he was put into the car after advising the cop he was religiously prohibited from entering the car, he would not be Mechallel Shabbos by a goy putting him and taking him out of the car. He wouldn’t have to resist getting in or out, but advise the cop he was religiously prohibited from getting inside through his own volition and power.
Also, the cop would almost certainly not have arrested for refusing to sign. There haven’t been any jaywalking arrests in years, and his commander would have him in deep water if he brought a Jewish Sabbath observer to the precinct on his Sabbath because he was trying to observe his Sabbath — as the first jaywalking arrest in years. That would have gotten the police department in political hot water.October 12, 2011 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #817107
Metrodriver: No one holds like that (only Ashuris and Yevanis count as K’sav), even though the Rama brings it down.October 12, 2011 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #817108
Dr. Seuss; Informing the police officer that he is not willingly going in the car or traveling on Shabbos, does not change the situation. He is not a sack of potatoes. He still participated in chillul Shabbos. But the facts in this particular situation were such that the (farshtunkene, anti-Semitic, dumb) cop refused to follow the Yid to his house, where he would have presented ID. Instead, he threatened to arrest him if he didn’t sign the ticket on the spot. But, normally, in NYC you don’t have to ( nor are you asked to) sign a ticket.October 12, 2011 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #817109
Sam2; I don’t have a Shulchan Aruch in front of me for reference. But I vaguely remember the Gemara in Masechet Shabbos and the Mechaber In Shulchan Aruch Hilchos Shabbos states; ?????? ?????? ???????. That you are allowed to record a house or property on Shabbos, due to the Mitzva of “Yishuv Eretz Israel”. One of the commentators explains because any language other than “Ashuris” is not considered “Kesivah” M’Dooraysa. L’Halacha, of course we don’t hold like that. But in a pinch, it might be enough to go with it.October 12, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #817110
Metro: We hold of that Gemara but we don’t hold like the Ashuris opinion even to the other extreme. I have to look it up again, but I believe we hold that Mishum Yishuv Eretz Yisrael even a Melacha D’Oraisa is Muttar. There are certainly stories of R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach telling people they can work the land on Shabbos in cases where the land was for all intents and purposes Hefker and whoever did stuff with it first could claim it. So he let Jews plow it and stuff even on Shabbos so they could get to it before the Arabs.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.