February 4, 2013 6:18 am at 6:18 am #608071CuriosityParticipant
I was reading one of the latest YWN articles about a community in Yerushalayim whose non-frum residents are objecting to yeshivas opening in their community because they fear of extremism in their midst. These unnamed residents mentioned an incident in which stones were thrown at a driving car on Shabbos. Unfortunately, we hear about such incidents so often that we aren’t even phased by it anymore. I, personally, would like to make a machaah against the terrible chilul shabbos.
Rocks are muktzeh, and no matter how long your payeus are, it is absolutely assue to throw a rock on Shabbos. Also, by throwing rocks at a moving car, these people inevitably cause the driver to speed up and be mechalel shabbos even more. As Chazal teach, one can do tshuvah for his own cheit, but for one who is machti acheirim it is not so poshut. This is besides the classical argument that nobody ever became frum because of having been spat upon or having rocks thrown at them.
Ok… enough joking… in all seriousness, why are there so many crazy and misled Jews out there in Israel that have totally lost sight of halacha and Daas Torah? It almost seems like there are entire communities of them, and it simply boggles my mind how our kiruv organisations have not stepped up to address their needs. These people THIRST FOR TORAH!!! Hashem is sitting in Shamayim and is desperately waiting for his children to come back to Him and do tshuvah, but they are set in their wicked ways because of the misguided societies in which they live!! We must save our brothers and sisters and teach them Hashem’s Torah! Teach them that it is wrong to be mechalel shabbos and yom tov by throwing rocks; that it is assur to destroy another Jew’s property (whether it be his car or his cell phone); teach them that it is assur to spit and curse and pour paint or bleach on other Jews; we must teach them to be kind to their fellow man – show them the second half of the luchos habris – the bein adam lechaveiro half; we must teach them the words of Hillel Hazaken and other sages: ma lecha sne, lechavrecha lo taavid; veahavta lereacha kamocha; btzelem Elokim bara et haadam. Only when we are mekarev our dear brothers and sisters, only then will we be zoche to see mashiyach tzidkeinu… amen.February 4, 2013 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #926227RBS.JewMember
Amen v’amen Curiosity!February 4, 2013 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #926228
The number of people throwing rocks at cars on Shabbos are in the single digits. They are a non-entity and represent no one. (Besides, there is nothing you can do about every bored soul who has no rabbi and listens to no one, which is exactly who and what they are.)February 4, 2013 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #926229
Be more concerned about the anti-semites in Yerushalayim who don’t want frum people in their neighborhood.February 4, 2013 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #926230rcParticipant
Bechavod Gadol Confucious, when these “frum” people start acting like Bnei Torah, the secular israeli wont mind them as neighbors.February 4, 2013 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #926231yichusdikParticipant
Confucious, maybe they don’t want frum people in their neighborhood because they don’t want rocks thrown at them… And considering that they are Jews, and that they send their sons to risk their lives to defend Jews, you have some nerve calling them anti Semites.
I remember my first visit to Israel as a teenager. I was staying at a family friend’s apartment on Rechov Hillel in Yerushalayim. After a very busy few days, an exhilarating first Shabbos experience at the Kotel, and a long walk all I wanted to do was sleep. I lay down in my bed that Friday night, a frum Jew in awe of where he was, and all I could hear for the next four hours was cries of “Shabbes, Shabbes” and “Shaigetz, Shaigetz” from a crowd of at least 20-30 chareidi men on the street below, yelling at cars. This was in the mid eighties; this was not in or near geula or meah shearim, or any other chareidi neighborhood, it was on Hillel a block from Hamelech George.
Never mind the stones, the chilul hashem, the lack of sense in being mekarev instead of merachek; that was pure gezel sheina by any definition, for anyone in a two block radius, it was a ruinous way to start a shabbos and a visit to eretz Yisroel.
150 years ago, in Galicia, at least, if someone went out of the geder of the kehila, went to work on shabbes, sent his kids to a gymnasia instead of cheder, they may have been ignored or shunned, but no one attacked them violently. No one threw stones at them. No one spat at them in public. No one was mechallel shabbes to prove a point…about shabbes. So, COnfucious, where is your mesorah that this is OK behaviour?February 4, 2013 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #926232zahavasdadParticipant
It only takes one rock throwing, Cell Phone breaker , Ramat Beth Shemesh loudmouth to ruin it for everyone.February 4, 2013 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #926233danielaParticipant
These people ARE antisemites who don’t want frum people in their neighbourhood. They may be born in frum families, but more often, they are grand-grandchildren of frum people forced into Israel by pogroms, grand-children of people who grew up in the virulently antireligious society of the 50s, and children of fools. Rabbis and neighbours know them well, but what can be done? They are off the derech, to use a polite expression, but they often dress like haredim. Their yichus, don’t ask me, but I am told they have valid ID cards from the Medinat and they are recorded as jewish. I was attacked by a pack of them in Yerushalayim back 10 years or so, yes, while driving on Shabbat, which let me remind, one may have a very valid reason to do, such as going to the hospital or accompanying someone to the hospital. They are obviously people to stay away from, but if you think they thirst for Torah, please go and teach them.February 4, 2013 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #926234
The anti-semites hate the frum out of jeoulosy. They see what we lack materially we more than make up with happiness and spirituality. Something these anti-religious are sorely lacking.
That they latch on to the 3 or so people (out of hundreds of thousands of frum yidden) throwing stuff, is nothing more than a pretext for their hatred.February 4, 2013 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #926235The little I knowParticipant
I know that I am inciting some zealots, many who obeyed instructions from dayanim and batei din, but I frown upon the use of violence and similar forms of protest. Firstly, they accomplish nothing beyond capturing the attention of the anti-Jewish or anti-frum media. Secondly, I have not succeeded in finding sources of such behavior as consistent with Torah values. We must all follow the edict of ????? ???? ????, mandating that we use such means to achieve our goals. Can someone please convince me that getting hit with stones will make a chiloni become shomer Shabbos? The mitzvah of ????? ????? is specific to the accomplishment of the goal – otherwise it is the mitzvah to not say or do anything (???? ????? ??? ?).
Since the subject of gezel shinah was raised, I must divert a bit to highlight something common to many frum neighborhoods. I don’t go to bed all that early, but I often hear long, incessant honking of car horns late into the night. While I can always enhance my situation with a drop of caffeine the next day, I find the waking of sleeping babies and children on the block inconsiderate, even abusive. Are our pressures at the level of pikuach nefesh that the disturbance to countless others is meaningless?February 4, 2013 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #926236agittayidParticipant
Definitely a need to educate those who cause a chillul hashem, and their apologists.February 4, 2013 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #926237zahavasdadParticipant
You cannot expect a non-relgious public to take your message when you cannot control people who (at least in their eyes) are you kin-folk.February 4, 2013 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #926238yichusdikParticipant
TLIK, having grown up in an Agudah neighborhood next to a freeway, I know exactly what you mean. I agree that especially in Israel, it is just as insensitive for drivers to make noise in residential areas, frum or not, as it is for protesters to wake everyone with their protests. But I do expect those who purport to live a torah lifestyle to actually follow such strictures as against gezel sheinah more than I do those who are ignorant of the halocho and have only their (apparently lacking) common sense to go by as they drive and honk.February 4, 2013 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #926239nfgo3Member
To Confucious, re your second comment: I think the opening poster’s point is that people in Jerusalem who object to Charedim in their neighborhoods are not anti-Semites, they are anti-rock-throwers. And of course the opening poster’s second point is that rock-throwers, especially on Shabbos, are not Charedim in a meaningful sense.February 4, 2013 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #926240CuriosityParticipant
nfgo3- that is exactly what I mean.February 4, 2013 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #926241
Being “anti-rock throwers” is akin to being “anti-graffiti vandalism”. Who isn’t that? EVERYONE is anti these things. Do you go around yelling what terrible people blacks are due to the graffiti vandalism they commit? Of course not! Their youth engaged in such vandalism are a small minority of their community and do not represent the community one iota. No one would dare criticize the black community due to the graffiti vandalism!
Yet, regarding the frum yidden — for some folks here — it is perfectly acceptable in their twisted thinking to criticize “chareidim” for what a very very small number of fellows do. Despite the fact that rabbonim where they live have repeatedly and severely critcized their misguided action. These small number of fellows — who represent no one and are an even smaller element of the frum community than the graffiti vandals are an element of their minority community — do not listen to any rabbis.
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