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When it comes to teaching hashkafa I think there are many problems with the mehalech in place. This has been mentioned by SJSinNYC. This is one of the major problems I have with it:
Many mechanchim and even kiruv rabbis are so caught up on the Rambam’s usage of the word ‘yedia’ (knowledge) when he refers to belief in God, that they refuse to acknowledge that there is an aspect of faith that cannot be proven. Hence they get caught up in ‘proofs’ which are refuted by a capable, thinking adolescent, because certain things cannot be proven, much less by an amateur rabbi with no real background in science or philosophy, and thus lose their integrity.
I have read many books written by well-meaning ‘kiruv-professionals’ and rabbis, and unfortunately did not find a lot of them intellectually satisfying. Many present outdated arguments (by outdated I mean arguments which have known refutations), false arguments (e.g. presenting an opinion as ‘scientific’ when in fact no self-respecting scientist maintains such views), and arguments which appeal more emotionally than logically but claim to be ‘logical proofs’.
(To give credit where credit is due – Mod 80 mentioned a book by Lawerence Keleman – Permission to Believe. It’s a short book that I actually found enlightening, because he is clear that he is not coming to prove our beliefs, but rather to demonstrate that there is no proof to the contrary, and that it cannot be considered unreasonable to take the leap of faith.)
Nobody is qualified to teach this subject unless they have a solid background in today’s science, and they are intellectually honest. Otherwise their teachings are bound to be refuted, and they will make a mockery of the Torah. If only such a rule were implemented, I am sure there would be less teenagers going off.
philosopher-
There are VERY COMPELLING LOGICAL PROOFS OF THE TORAH’S DIVINE ORIGINS.
Maybe you need to learn what a proof is. A proof is something which cannot logically be denied. There is no such proof about what you’ve said. Yes, there are some very interesting arguments which may make it easier and even reasonable to make a leap of faith, but there is no absolute proof.
How is it weak?
Here is a small example. When talking about the divinity of TSBP he mentions that the Torah mentions “like I’ve told you” referencing another source. He makes a huge leap to say “well that proves TSBP is divine.”
While I agree it gives substance to the fact that there is another source given, it in no way shape or form proves that TSBP is divine.
There were plenty of examples in the book that made me think it weak.
Also, we rely on the unbroken mesorah chain to explain away a lot of potential problems. However, if you read Nechemiah, it does talk about a break in Mesorah and a new scroll being found. Yes, mefarshim explain this, but its also easy to say “well, the general population did not have 100% unbroken mesorah.”
I’ve never heard 100% proof of the Torah. I believe in the Torah and believe that it has been passed down from generation to generation and is divine. But that takes a leap of faith. I’m ok with that.
Maybe you need to learn what a proof is. A proof is something which cannot logically be denied.
Everyone logic might be different. I would assume if the Torah giving to klal Yisroel were a mere legend it wouldn’t happen to 600,000 Jews rather the Torah would be given privately to Moshe Rabbeinu and he would pass it further.
Legends can be accepted as factual occurances if not more than a couple people claim that they saw what happened with their own eyes and people believe them.
You will never find a legend that 600,000 people witnessed at once. Such a legend can’t take flight.
Philosopher- “My point was that just as you apply the halachos of dan l’kaf zchus for those who have mental disease and go OTD, let’s also apply those halachas to the girls in your story and then nobody takes the blame for anything anymore.”
Let me repeat what I wrote back then -Some people who go OTD do so because of mental illness; some of this mental illness can be classified as a person who has a din of shoitah. They don’t have to be non-functioning to be in this class. I never said you have to dan every mentally ill person l’caf zecus. If you dan these girls l’caf zecus- all you can do is make it not a Maizid, but it’s still a Shogegg!
“Obviously the younger kids are, the less they can behave in the proper manner as they are not developed enough to make proper decisions. I’m not saying it never happens when the sudents are older either, but generally, frum students are better behaved than public school students.”
We all know that children only have a Yetzer Horah, but that is the purpose of Chinuch. This was obviously a breakdown in the chinuch of these girls. Now, whom to blame for this breakdown? Let’s see -it’s either the Rebbeyim/teachers or the parents, but certainly not the girls.
Everyone says, rightly so, that ultimately th only way to help our kids is UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. I agree wholeheartedly……in theory. How many of you are parents of these children and have to go above and beyond any normal thought process or action process to find unconditional love? It is easy for everyone to come forth with their theories , but to put it into practice…………….
GITGEZUGT – what I said is – I’d love to see real studies done that can prove that there’s a higher rate of teens at risk amongst a specific group. I don’t think conversations with Chinuch professionals in the YU/Sterns Torah U Mada group would qualify as a study. It may enlighten, however that’s not what I consider real proof.
This is a very interesting topic, which I’d love to respond to, and I hope I will do so later, but it’s extremely late, and my daughter just had a baby.
yitayningwut – lemaasa when it comes down to it, if you don’t want to believe you can uproute and ask questions on every LOGICAL proof. Emuna exceeds logic. Were logic ends, emuna begins. I’m sure you’ve heard of the saying that goes something like “with emuna there are no questions, without emuna there are no answers.” (obviously there are but no answer will satisfy him)i don’t know the exact wording but you get the point.
Maybe I shouldn’t have capitalized There are VERY COMPELLING LOGICAL PROOFS OF THE TORAH’S DIVINE ORIGINS, as everyones logic is different and those who want to SEE the proof, see it. And those who don’t, don’t.
I would not want to live my life not being sure if the Torah is true.
Here are what is for me logical proofs of that the Torah is divine
1. Eisav sonei l’Yaakov. In today’s times we see it in the nations’ illogical hatred towards Israel. Why the neverending baseless hatred towards the Jews?
2. The Torah laws are applicable even in today’s time, approximately 3,000 years after it was given. We’re not talking about two, three laws, we’re talking about tens of laws applicable each day for each Jewish male, less for women per day, but still hundreds of laws dating back to when the Torah was given. Shabbos, dairy/meat, kosher, etc. This is amazing and would never work would the laws be concocted by mere mortals.
3. Frum communities, while they have their share of social problems have major differences in percentage of crimes than the outside world
suicide
murder
immorality – which include out of marriage pregnencies, cheating on spouses, teenage immorality, same gender behavior
violent crimes
I feel that while there are all sorts of abuse, being a victim myself, I’m sure I’m not the only one, but I feel that the feeling that there are tons of victims and there is a wall of silence is untrue. I feel this issue too is pretty low in addition to the others I’ve mentioned, according to the non-frum communities.
Depresion is a rising issue but I feel that that’s manmade within our communities and were we to follow the Torah’s ways, like living b’tznius, within our means, not only regarding housing, but simchos also and other self made disasters life depression would be much less rampant than it is.
Were we to live Torah way we wouldn’t have so many depressed people. My point is that because the Torah’s is of divine origin it’s ways are pleasant. Not living according to the Torah’s ideals causes us problems.
yitayningwut:
Im not sure which books you have read but many that have been written by Kiruv professionals were done after doing plenty of research into current science. A great book is Search Judaism by Rabbi Yitzchok Fingerer. He brings plenty of scientific proofs and he references everything. I think you’d like the book. I recently started it and im still in the beginning chapters but I must give credit where it is due. Its a very well researched and well written book so far.
Philosopher, there are compelling arguments for the divinity of the Torah, but there are also compelling arguments against.
If you are talking about Eisav soneih yaakov, its actually Yishmael in this day and age.
I’m not sure what your #2 means – because we still follow laws they are applicable? There are other religions that still follow their laws and customs, many years later.
The amish have even lower rates.
To be honest, those are the weakest “logical” proofs I’ve ever heard.
It is easy for everyone to come forth with their theories , but to put it into practice…………….
I’m sure you’re doing a great job. Hang in there.
Yes, the onus of responsibility for going OTD is on the “kid”. The “kid” is no “kid”; once he hits 13 he is an adult.
Max well, you think a Bar Mitzvah kid is an adult? So, you would have no problem with your 13 year old son getting married?
bar/bas mitzva kids are responsible for their actions. but there is a greater level of COMPLETE responsibility once they hit 20. (mefarshim in chaya sara, when sara imanu passed away… i’m almost sure its there)
sjsinnyc, Absolutely. I don’t consider him an adult – the TORAH does.
Max well, you think a Bar Mitzvah kid is an adult? So, you would have no problem with your 13 year old son getting married?
I have already written about that. One is responsible for his at age 13 and this does not have anything to do with getting married.
Years ago girls got married by 12-13 and boys by 16.
In fact gypsies still get married by that age too.
Today we get married later because we want more out of marriage than years ago and we need to mature before we realize what with what kind of person we want to be married to.
However even if a person is not mature enough for marriage at age 20, they are still responsible for their actions. These are two seperate things.
Philosopher, I don’t know the last time you hung out with 12 year old girls or 13 year old boys, but they are not mature (as a general rule). The situation today is different from when boys and girls married much younger. People matured faster due to life experience.
I understand that someone past Bar/Bat mitzvah is responsible for their halachic obligations, but that doesn’t mean they are mature. It also doesn’t mean they have the ability to stand up to peer pressure or get the right answers to their questions.
I think you are simplifying this.
Once a Kid hits 12 and 13 (girl and boy respectively), they have the halachic obligation to do mitzvos. That does not ensure that they are mature. In the olden days, when boys and girls actually had real farm type chores to do, they did mature a great deal faster than the children of today. We spoonfeed everything to our kids, they have a sense of entitlement such as no generation never had before. They do not truly respect their elders or generations that have gone on before them. They are neither mature enough to marry and raise their own children,nor sufficiently intelligent to know what real life is all about. Not at age 12 and 13. Not nowadays. There are exceptions to every rule, but generally speaking, adolescents are not ready to take on the world, much as they beg to differ.
GITGEZUGT, You’re wrong and I’ll correct you, with the help of other coffee drinkers. In my estimation, the frummer the crowd, the less OTD kids, and I invite everyone to contend otherwise.
Those of you who finished high-school: what percentage of your classmates went OTD? And how would you label your school (Chassidish, Yeshivish, MO)? (Let’s agree that OTD means chilul shabbos and treifus r”l. A chassidish or Yeshivish “OTD” kid who watches TV is no worse than a good MO kid.)
OK, let’s begin. I went to a chassidish school the frummest you can find. OTD rate: 0%. In fact not a single girl in the entire school(s) went OTD in my day. By now there are 2 OTD kids from that school (One from a broken home, crazy mom, the other in the process of teshuvah b”H), out of THOUSANDS of graduates! OTD rate: 0.01%?
Three of my kids finished high school in the same circles, frummest in the US (or world). OTD rates: 0%
Of course several of their classmates are a little more modern than their parents (using makeup, longer shaitel, listening to radio) but that doesn’t count. One boy in one of my sons’ elementary school came from a divorced home, custodial mother’s Yiddishkeit iffy (she had friends over who watched TV on shabbos); he left school and I don’t know how he ended up, probably not OK.
Next…
I understand that someone past Bar/Bat mitzvah is responsible for their halachic obligations, but that doesn’t mean they are mature..
That’s right. They might not be mature enough for marriage but they are still responsible to fulfill their halachic obligations. Exactly.
It also doesn’t mean they have the ability to stand up to peer pressure or get the right answers to their questions.
No one drops out from one day to the next. It’s a process. If one wants to do good Hashem helps, and the same is with the bad.
Little decisions add up to create the person who drops out or stay frum. That is precisely why 12/13 year old are esponsible for their actions.
Teens today are not given enough acknowledgement for being the people they are and basically looked upon as the mixed up, immature kids. While teens don’t automatically make heavy choices when they turn 13, like if they want to be frum or not, it is the age where they do MAKE choices that all adds up in the end to become who they are unless they make a conscious decision to change afterwards.
“Those of you who finished high-school: what percentage of your classmates went OTD?”
0%
“And how would you label your school (Chassidish, Yeshivish, MO)?”
Yeshivish
For all those of you who think 12/13 is responsible how many of you have given them your credit card???? How many of you would trust them to be home alone for a weekend? OK, a night? PLEAAAAASE. Give me a break! How many of them get up and get themselves to school on a regular basis and are not even driven when they miss the school bus? How many earn an allowance and help around the house without being asked? How many help around the house when being asked? How many do you trust to babysit for their siblings? How many do you trust to babysit for nieces and nephews? How many go to the doctor alone? How many go on the train alone?
How many have curfews? How many go clothing shopping without you? How many go food shopping without you? OK, I think I made my point, 12 and 13 year olds are halachakly responsible for their mitzvos and their sins probably because that is the time they become hormonal and their parents should no longer be responsible for the things they might do. But that doesn’t mean that they are emotionally mature or capable of handling everything that is thrown their way nor are they capable of dealing with the extreme pain that normally pushes them off the derech.
Look kids make many normal kid mistakes and can rarely explain why they do that. The answer is usually because they are kids and are supposed to make mistakes, that’s how they learn. It is a built in concept, kids do kids things, foolish and irresponsible kids things. Kal v’chomer what do you expect kids who are in severe emotional and/or psychological pain to do? You want them to be responsible for their emotional choices? We are not talking about bad behavior here because they didn’t get the red lollipop. They want to rip and tear the pain off of their bodies, out of their hearts and out of their minds. Can you even imagine such pain???? That is why the first thing a young man does is take off his kipah or tzizis. That is how he tests the waters. It is the levush he first tries to rid himself of before everything else. If that makes him feel better, that is where it ends at least for a while. If that doesn’t work, he stops putting on teffilin and stops davening. If that doesn’t work, he will break shabbos, and if that doesn’t work for him, he will go even further. Through the process he will learn to smoke, drink and then drug to ease the pain and keep from going another step and another step. Some kids have to hit rock bottom before they can turn around and come back. Some are much luckier.
If you REALLY don’t understand this and still believe that it is a logical choice, or a choice they clearly and consciously are making then you truly have no knowledge and no understanding of this parsha!
AND BTW just because someone is a Rabbi and works with kids in the parsha does not mean they have any training what-so-ever to be doing so. There are a lot of Rabbonim and Mechanchim involved with kids who have done more harm than good with their bad advice and Tough Love attitude. I have a very different perspective. I prefer to Love Tough! That doesn’t mean that I don’t guide children to make better choices for themselves and to understand that the choices they make carve out the paths and roads that lead to their futures, and can actually define their future. But I don’t hold them responsible for their past. The pain they carry within them is very real. I try to help them give it up to Hashem and let Hashem be the score keeper.
Holding them accountable for choosing to go off the derech is like holding them responsible for being hurt by other people or for feeling the pain. On the other hand, an adult who chooses to go off the derech IS responsible for that choice because an adult has the opportunity to reach out to any number of resources to help them with whatever issues they are experiencing.
One more thing. If a non-jewish baby is adopted and megayer, when they turn 12 or 13 they have to decide for themselves if they want to be megayer. However, when they are older if they feel that they were coerced in any way when they turned 12/13 to be megayer and they didn’t choose to 100% on their own then it wasn’t a kosher geyrus and they are not Jewish.
Why is that? Why should there be a question that a 12/13 year old could be coerced and is not responsible enough to make the decision 100% on their own? Why should a question even arise. Would a child worry that if they chose not to be frum at 12/13 the family would abandon them? Are they responsible enough at that age to decide for themselves if they want to be frum or not or if they want to be a part of the family or not? Why should they have an “out” when they are older to say that they weren’t sincere at a younger age and they were coerced or afraid to say otherwise. Even a ger who wants to be frum might tell his RAV I wasn’t sincere at 13, I was afraid to say “no” or I didn’t really understand the procedure or didn’t take it seriously, do I have to do it again?
aries2756:
The Toarh holds boys and girls responsible at age 12?13 because they are Hormonal. Are you serious??!!!!! Thats the most absurd thing I have heard in a very long time. The fact is that the Torah understand that at age 13 a boy should be mature enough to take on the responsibilities of the Torah and if brought up in a Torah home with a good chinuch he will be prepared to meet the challenges facing him. The Torah is not going to put a person into a lions den and say ok now find your way to safety. At 13 you are responsible for yourself. Until recently a 13 year old was mature. In pre ww2 Europe 13 year olds were already working and many of them had responsibilities that some adults today cant even handle. The world used to be very different. People didnt spoil themselves and their kids back then. Today people are lazy and dont want to work. We like a nice 9-5 day and that is too much for some of us and we need 1 hour lunch breaks and coffee breaks and stam waste time at work…Theres no more work ethic. My grandfather told me that when he was 12 or 13 he used to be at yeshivah at 5 in the morning. And sat and learned for a few hours straight. Today the Rosh hayeshivah would be arrested for child abuse…Its a different world today. So technically a 13 year old boy and 12 year old girl should be mature enough to accept the Ol Mitzvos at that age. However due to the way they were brought up many if not most are just ill equipped for the challenges that face them. Maybe we need to stop babying ourselves and our children. We have become lazy and complacent.
Not to mention that a 13 year old guy (or 12 year old woman) is subject to capital punishment if such a crime is committed. They are NOT “children”.
I’m with yitayningwut and SJSinNYC. For every compelling proof there’s a compelling counterargument. We cannot rely on these so-called proofs alone. The kiruv orgs are doing a disservice by oversimplifying it like that. It makes things easier to say that those who aren’t satisfied by these proofs don’t want to believe, but that’s not intellectually honest.
SJS I actually do find the fact that antisemitism always existed and still exists today to be compelling, since it is not logical. Of course I wouldn’t call it proof in the sense of a mathematical proof.
I was a very mature 12 year old (my mother gave me a credit card in my name at age 9 LOL). As mature as I was, I did NOT fully grasp all the long term effects of what I was doing.
All it sounds is like you are blaming kids and not understanding where they are coming from. If a kid starts going OTD at age 9, does that make it any better?
I think the reason that kids start in their teenage years is that they are beginning to learn more in depth and develop their sense of self much more than at age 8.
Does it really matter if they are halachically obligated in mitzvos or not? An 11 year old breaking halacha on purpose is tragic IMO and worse than a 15 year old. Maybe not in the technical halachic sense, but a young child that rebels often has much more problems than a 14 year old who doesn’t see the logic and beauty of Torah.
The recent sharp rightward shift in some communities is certainly not helping. Boys who are not on the “future Rosh Yeshiva” track can be made to feel that they are second class Jews. Girls who can not keep up with the latest Tznius Hidurim are pushed out. The great narrowing of acceptable Hashkafah driven by the Slifkin ban drives out those who have a rationalist way of thinking.
For these 3 situations above the hope has to be to link with a moderate Charedei or Torah U’Mada community as I have done. Best is to find a moderate mentor (aseh le-cha Rav) that you can relate to.
“The recent sharp rightward shift in some communities is certainly not helping.”
Please read the above “statistics” by Max Well and me and please add yours by answering these questions:
1. Those of you who finished high-school: what percentage of your classmates went OTD (chilul shabbos & treifus r”l)?
2. How would you label your school (Chassidish, Yeshivish, MO)?”
msseeker:
I know someone who works with OTD teenage boys specifically from 2 very Chassidish communities. So does it exist? Yes. More than you think. Why does it matter anyway what kind of background people come from? OTD kids come from all communities.
My school was MO. I’m not 100% sure about all the girls in the grade but I think one went OTD. One was never frum to begin wtih.
I know a few from my year at the local Bais Yaakov (Yeshivish) who went OTD.
My sisters year in Bais Yaakov (Yeshivish), I think 4 girls went OTD.
I attended a Chassidish high school.
Out of 30 girls only one went OTD.
I dont think we need to make major changes just for such a small minority.
We can always try to make improvements in the chinuch system, but a major overhaul we do not need.
The chinuch system is working wonderfully. I am b”H very satisfied with my kids school. There was one teacher I thought was absolutely terrible and ignored my child who bacame very withdrawn that year. I was very angry. But a one of my daughter’s classmates mother raved about how good of a teacher she was. Life is not black and white always. You can’t always win. Such situations are teachable moments too for kids. I always say that life is not exactly how we want it to run and kids need to realize that and know how to deal with such situations and not collapse when the slighest thing goes wrong. School is a breeding ground for such lessons.
All in all, I think most schools are doing a great job of educating the Yiddishe doros. Most principals and students do care about there students and try their best. Yes there are definitely some mechanchim that should absolutely not be in that field and need to find other jobs. But those are the exceptions.
My sisters year in Bais Yaakov (Yeshivish), I think 4 girls went OTD
SJS, what do you mean with my sisters year in BY 4 girls went OTD? Were the girls in her grade and how many girls were in her grade?
SJSinNYC
Do the 2 schools have the same amount of students?
WIY, I hate to tell you this, but we are no long in PREWAR EUROPE, and we are no longer living in the times of the Torah when a boy of 13 or a girl of 12 were of marriageable age or worked in the fields. Things are different today. WE have to understand the emotional, psychological and biological age of a 12 or 13 year old. What they are capable of understanding and doing versus when they are 16, 21, and even 30. Are you saying that you did not change from the time you were 13? That you didn’t do things differently when you were 16 or that your opinions and actions didn’t change and then change again when you were 21 and then 30? Are you saying that you didn’t handle things differently at the different stages in your life?
Anyone that says that there is no difference between a 12/13 year old and a 16, 21 or 30 year old is ridiculous. Choices, actions and emotions are handled differently at different maturity levels in life and at different stages because of the additional knowledge and life experience. NO, a person’s level or responsibility is different at their different stages of life and NO we cannot compare a 12/13 year old today to one of PRE WAR times or in the times of the Torah. WE can only speak of what we know today.
So I will say this again. WE are all entitled to our own opinions. Some of us have more informed opinions than others because of OUR OWN experiences working within the PARSHA and some are just speculating with an opinion peering in from outside the window WHICH IS VERY DANGEROUS because you do not fully understand and comprehend what these children have gone through or are going through and YOU should know that you are adding salt to their wounds and to the wounds of their parents who are possibly reading these threads. AGAIN I am going to say this to be very clear. THOSE of you who are playing devils advocate and are speculating with your opinions on this subject are adding salt to the wounds of parents in this parsha. BE VERY CAREFUL what you say because one never knows who Hashem will choose to test next. My mother always says “a mench zol nisht reden vi lang er hot kinder in shteeb”. A person shouldn’t “spout opinions” as long as he too is still raising children.
Philosopher, there are compelling arguments for the divinity of the Torah, but there are also compelling arguments against.
Like what?
If you are talking about Eisav soneih yaakov, its actually Yishmael in this day and age.
First of all, not all Muslims are of Arabic descedants. In any case the Torah clearly says that if we won’t follow Hashem’s will we will be at the mercy of our enemies.
We know from the Torah that that’s what golus is. Being hated and persecuted by the nations.
<e>I’m not sure what your #2 means – because we still follow laws they are applicable? There are other religions that still follow their laws and customs, many years later.
I precisly mentioned tens of laws per day not some laws and customs.
The tribes in the jungle have customs dating back to who knows when as do all major religions. But which religion would people still follow if they had to adhere every moment of there lives to numerous laws?
From when we arise to when we go to sleep, every moment of our lives in dictated by halacha dating back to har Sinai.
The amish have even lower rates
The Amish have much smaller communities than the frum, hence the lower rates.
To be honest, those are the weakest “logical” proofs I’ve ever heard.
That’s fantastic. What are the strongest logical proofs that you’ve heard?
thenurse: “I know someone who works with OTD teenage boys specifically from 2 very Chassidish communities. So does it exist? Yes. More than you think.”
I know. Yet it’s still way less than in more modern circles.
“Why does it matter anyway what kind of background people come from? OTD kids come from all communities.”
It matters when people say that frumkeit, chumras, etc. are a cause of going OTD. I’m convinced that the opposite is true and I’m out to prove it for kvod shomayim.
SJSinNYC: Thanks, but please include the number of students in each school/class so we can calculate the percentage. We want it to be as accurate as possible.
I’m sorry, but I think asking what kind of school everyone went to and calculating the percentage of students that went OTD from their grade is pure silliness, and completely pointless.
Thanks, Philosopher, that’s about 0.03%.
Reminder: OTD means chilul shabbos and treifus r”l. An infamous chassidish-girl-turned-policewoman in Monsey who brought shame on her entire family is fighting for shmiras shabbos. These are our bad kids. MO parents would’ve been proud.
msseeker-
Those of you who finished high-school: what percentage of your classmates went OTD?
0
And how would you label your school (Chassidish, Yeshivish, MO)?
Very right-wing Yeshivish.
1: Iranians are Aryan (not Arab), which is the same stock as Germans (once we are on the topic of Eisav).
2: Lower sample size does not have anything to do with rates, which are normalized for size (ask Dr. Pepper for more info).
3: The Amish also allow for their children to make a choice AFTER they try being non-Amish. It is actually built into the religion called “Rumspringa”, and its not considered OTD for the Amish. Once you are an Jewish OTD, its much harder to be reaccepted.
4: The best way to keep children on is to marry them young. Many Chassidim (not to generalize) do marry younger than other groups.
Both schools had approximately 80 girls per grade. My sisters year may have been closer to 100, but I’m pretty sure not over.
Also, I hear that boys go OTD at a higher frequency than girls, and these were all girls schools.
philosopher-
Today we get married later because we want more out of marriage than years ago and we need to mature before we realize what with what kind of person we want to be married to.
You are presenting your speculation as fact. Who says this is the reason? I think you are ignoring a very simple possibility. In the olden days, no one went to school the way we did. They were taught whatever they were taught as young children, and your average Joe was earning a living by the time he was 10. And they weren’t working in offices either. In a society where children are on the street at such a young age, of course they will develop a sense of responsibility for their actions earlier. Surely they will be prepared for marriage earlier as well. Nowadays, kids have no life experience at that age, for they are still in school and everything they need is handed to them. Therefore although the halachic status of bar and bas mitzva may not change, I think it is highly unreasonable and naive to expect the same level of responsibility from a 12/13 year old of 2010 as one from the old world.
As for your ‘proofs’, I can only echo what SJS and rebetzin said. There are arguments to the contrary as well, and refutations to every point you’ve made, which demonstrate, at the very least, that there can possibly be other explanations. I am only debating with myself whether or not it is worth playing devil’s advocate here.
sof davar hakol nishma-
I agree that there is a concept of emunah. But emunah is precisely where there isn’t perfect evidence, and therefore I think it is a big mistake when people claim that they have ‘proof’ for these things, because their proofs are refutable and when they are refuted they diminish the value of the claim being made.
Nurse, where were you when Josh31 blamed the shift towards the right? Perhaps the right is doing something right. If the numbers proved that the frummer the worse, you’d kvell, I’m sure. What’s the MO OTD rate? 10% or higher? The INTERMARRIAGE rate is 3% r”l!
SJSinNYC, this is true in all communities, I believe. In ours it’s less than 1% for boys, judging by the hundreds of families I know and thousands I hear of.
If the numbers proved that the frummer the worse, you’d kvell, I’m sure.
Sorry, but I don’t think that was necessary. I wouldn’t kvell at all.
I think what Josh31 was saying is that because as a whole frum Jews have turned to the right, if a kid does something that’s not against halacha in any way whatsoever -for example, wearing a different color shirt/pants, playing sports etc -but is scorned because it’s not ‘right’ enough, that would not motivate him to become and strive to be more ‘right.’ That, I agree with.
But in no way did I say ‘sure I’d love to hear that the more yeshivish you are, the more OTD kids you have. Please!
Where did you get the 10% stat? 10% of the MO people I know didn’t go off the derech, far from it. I personally know more right wing people who went OTD than MO, but I realize that means nothing.
My sisters year may have been closer to 100, but I’m pretty sure not over
4 girls out of one hundred is pretty consistent to what the average, unfortunately, OTD rate is.
App. 1 out of 30.
Every Jewish teen going OTD is a tragedy and I’m sure we can to try to improve the chinuch system, but let’s not bash it.
Thanks, msseeker, for this survey – there’s nothing like real numbers not speculation, that gives a picture of what’s going on.
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