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Enough, back to the subject please. I am personally getting a headache.
If anyone wants to start a thread (I hope not) on the subject of trying to bring proofs to Matan Torah (It causes me great pain to even write that) go ahead.
I will be sure to not even look at any posts there. Another moderator can.
What is this: “willing to bet”?
“Willing to bet” means that, if I had to gamble on it with money, I would. It means that I’m pretty confident that I’m correct, even if not absolutely 100%.
I’ll give an example.
A few years ago, Eeees and I took a vacation to St. Thomas. While we were there, we stopped off at the supermarket to pick up some staple foods. Imagine my surprise when we found the Coca-Cola and it did NOT have a hechsher.
In reality, I’m almost 100% certain that it was, in fact, kosher — after all, Coca-Cola’s formula is the same world wide. The lack of a hechsher was probably only because that particular bottling plant wasn’t under the OU.
I didn’t end up buying the Coke because I didn’t *need* it (there were other things to drink) and why take the small chance? However, if I had to gamble money on whether or not it was kosher, I would’ve said “Kosher” in a heartbeat.
“Willing to bet” means that I’m reasonably sure of something — enough that if forced to put money down, I’d go with that option without too much of a second thought.
The Wolf
FWIW, I think proofs are a fool’s errand*. I follow the Torah because I want to and I believe that God gave us the mitzvos — not because of some formal proof.
The Wolf
* No, I’m not calling anyone here a fool.
*sigh again* sorry for that
Yes wolf but in your example you had a considerable amount of knowledge you were basing your bet on. As I asked before what is your knowledge base of what the cultures you mentioned did or did not think about Matan Torah?
Don’t answer that, this discussion is over. Start another thread if you wish
You mean we can’t start discussing the intricacies of Coca-Cola bottling? 🙂
The Wolf
How Eurocentric of you. You missed Hinduism, practiced by about a billion inhabitants. It’s been around for thousands of years. I don’t want to get into an advanced discussion on the Hindu religion (I don’t think this is the place for it) but they too have daily rituals and a highly complex religious system.
The fact is that while the IDEA of worshipping objects did not change for thousands of years, the Hindu religion in itself WAS constantly undergoing changes. Look at their “gods”. They have some “gods” that are barely tens of years old, they have some hundreds of years old and some thousands of years old. While They do not have a very basic set of laws that cannot be changed throughout the centuries. Rather they believe in the gods, which as I mentioned above can be old and new and various customs and rituals that have changed throughout the centuries to suit there needs.
That’s not proof. Hindus, as I mentioned, have a complex religious system
The Hindu religion is NOT based upon every aspect of their lives. While their lives revolve around their religion, they have no laws for every aspect of their lives like Jews do. And again these rituals and their gods HAVE undergone changes throughout the centuries.
The Puritans lived pretty restricted lives
The Puritans LIVED pretty restricted lives. As far as I know their offspring do not.
The bottom line is that all it proves is that people *believed them to be* incumbent or divine and had a good system for transmitting those values to their progeny. It does not actually prove that those laws and values actually are divine.
People can believe anything if you repeat it enough. The point is that were the Hindus to be forced to change religions or they would be put to death, they would change religions, just like any other people who under death threat changed their religions.
The point is not whether people will believe anything that remotely makes sense. People do. Ithink it was Geobbels y”s who said that if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth.
The point is that at the start of each and every relgion the only version you that could be sold was that some individuals witnessed a miraculas event. None of the religions other than Judaism could claim at the start of there religion that theres were 600,000 witnesses to witness such an event.
The Jews who accepted the Torah would never do so had the fact that they themselves, 600,000 strong, stood and witnessed the event at har Sinai. How would they accept such an open and brazen posek would it have been a lie?
It’s funny that you mention R, C and Recon, because they actually disprove your point. The fact that these groups define Jewish law in such a radically different way disproves the point you’re trying to make. Unless, of course, you’re defining “Jews” as those who keep halacha (however you choose to define it), at which point your argument becomes circular (because your defining those who keep Jewish law according to your definition of the same.)
Some Conservatives believe (some don’t) in the divine origin of the Torah. The Reform and Reconstructionists definitely do not. And that precisely proves my point that even though they decided that the Torah is not divine, when they want to prove a point they turn to the that same Torah, because regardless what they say – THE TORAH IS DIVINE.
This post as well as wolfs last post on this subject were sent in (but not approved) before I made the request. No more in this thread please
SJSinNYC:
Max well, you think a Bar Mitzvah kid is an adult? So, you would have no problem with your 13 year old son getting married?
Max well:
sjsinnyc, Absolutely. I don’t consider him an adult – the TORAH does.
Says the one who obviously doesn’t have a thirteen year old son. 🙂
In any event, even the Torah agrees that at 13 one is not *fully* responsible for one’s actions. Consider the fact that a person is not liable for certain Divine punishments until 20.
Clearly what this says to me is that there is a maturation process. At thirteen we expect a youth to be able to handle certain responsibilities. As he progresses and matures towards twenty, he becomes more and more responsible for his actions, thoughts and ideas.
The Wolf
Clearly what this says to me is that there is a maturation process. At thirteen we expect a youth to be able to handle certain responsibilities. As he progresses and matures towards twenty, he becomes more and more responsible for his actions, thoughts and ideas.
I agree. But whatever the Torah deems a a 12/13 year old to be responsible for, they have the ability to handle that resposibility.
wolf – exactly. i didn’t understand what everyone was so busy arguing about.
Yet a 13 year old IS subject to the most serious punishment available to man — the death penalty.
sofdavar, the argument is about if the those going OTD have bechira or not.
max well, you are right as well, because whatever mitzvos Hashem obligated these 13 year olds to keep, they have the ability as well as the obligation to do so.
its seems like everyone talks about boys only, regarding OTD. what about the girls?
Philosopher:
I’m not sure if this was mentioned, but Rav Dessler discusses Behirah in depth and he develops a concept called the Behira point. Meaning anything above it is too difficult and anything below is too easy so the only place a person is challenged is at that Behira point. If the choice the person makes is not at their Behira point its not a Behira decision. If I chose chocolate ice cream over vanilla that is NOT Behira. If someone from a normal background chose not to kill someone that’s below his behira point so its NOT Behira. If someone chose to speak Avak Loshon Hara most likely its above ones Behira point so that’s NOT Behira. For some of these OTD kids it is certainly possible that going off was above their Behira point. I’m not saying always or even most of the time but there is ample room for such a possibility. I would say that certain extreme factors remove a persons Behira or severely impact the Behira point. If a child is physically, sexually or even emotionally abused by his Rebbi, teacher, parent, relative…how can he take the religion seriously? He figures of authority especially religious authority such as Rabbeim making a mockery of Judaism by abusing him. He(or she) can’t possibly take the religion seriously when it is so undermined by one in authority. Additionally, the child will associate the hurt with Rabbi meaning Judaism means abuse. The only logical and safe thing for him to do is run away from the religion. So technically leaving Yiddishkeit is not Behira for them. They had no choice.
WIY, I’m not going to argue with Rav Dessler, but I just want to understand something.
If we are going to say that people’s that there may be a chance that people’s bad choices were above their Bahira point, then we can excuse all the molesters, abusers, murderers who themselves were probably abused, people with negative character traits especially traits that that hurt others, in fact -we can excuse any behavour!
So we can all excuse everyones bad behavior. Those who have hurt me and those who have hurt these OTD kids and frum OTD kids, and those who continue to hurt kids. And those who hurt other innocent human beings. No one is responsible for there actions. Most of those who hurt others is because they have had similar things done to them or were born with character traits that push them to hurt others.
In fact we too are potur from any sins like loshen hora and anger that are caused by our genetic makeup as it might simply be IMPOSSIBLE for us to change. Yay, I’m taking a vacation from trying to work on my negative traits, after all there is no way I can change what is part of my genetic makeup. That is above my Behira!
I hardly think this is what Rabbi Dessler had in mind.
WIY, you don’t really have to answer my last post.
The point that I’m trying yo make is that we are here in this world to overcome our challenges and become better people. There is a din and a Dayan, there’s Gehenim and Gan Eden, and there’s a choice to do good or evil.
How Hashem will judge us and others, while we may discuss behira and bechira, we cannot know.
But for us, sinning b’mezed cannot become acceptable.
Philosopher:
Ill try to be Bekitzur. Without Behira one couldn’t grow but at the same time Behira is not the same for everyone. Its all about where you are holding in your personal avodas Hashem. So technically for some people Molesting “may” be beyond their Behira. Its very important to understand that Behira is something between us and Hashem. Meaning, we have no idea what Behira a person is holding at. That is part of the reason we can’t judge people. You don’t know where they were holding yesterday or a month ago. People are always changing. Either growing or chas veshalom moving backwards in their avodas Hashem. So with this in mind its fully possible for someone to be mechallel shabbos and its beyond their current Behira. Maybe last month the person was eating ham for lunch every day and now they stopped but they still have a hard time with Shabbos and may not be ready for Shabbos. Its beyond their current Behira.
The point is if its beyond their behira its not bemezid. Besides, Bmezid means that the person is doing it on purpose to anger Hashem. Meaning, they understand what it means to not sin against Hashem and they know the consequences and are doing it anyways. Meaning, having a strong Emunah and STILL sinning with the intention of angering Hashem. That’s Bemayzid.
Most OTD kids are clueless in their yiddishkeit and never had a strong foundation in Emunah and what Yiddishkeit is all about. You see we have read Rabbi Kaplans works and all that. They have not. Understanding this it should be clear that hey act out from a place of pain and hurt they have no real clue what they are doing. You can’t act out against Hashem when you don’t really know who what He is…That’s NOT Bemayzid at all.
Someone who knows their are 613 mitzvos and flouts them, is a b’meizid.
Maxwell its not so simple at all.
Maxwell the Torah is not black and white. There is actually a lot of gray areas and room for “safek.” One has to be well familiar with all the gedarim of mezid as well as the exact nature mindframe understanding and circumstances of the person acting before one can brand “mezid” and the like.
The rule is if someone knows the mitzvos/aveiros (i.e. he was brought up frum), then he is a b’meizid if he flouts them.
Are their exceptions to the rule? As with every rule.
WIY, As I mentioned, behira is certainly a valid point and as I always repeated in the threads – I am not God (b”H for that -that would not be a very good situation) and I don’t know how Hashem will judge anybody. I have repeatedly also said that there is the concept of teshuva.
So while you cleared up for me the fact that a person might be confused at a certain point of time in their life and therefore cannot make conscious decisions at a particualr point in their life, those who do not do teshuva cannot be explained away.
If we are to respect and accept sinful choices of the OTD’s and explain them all away with the concept of behira,then we can nicely shelve the concept that a person is here in this world with the tafkid to better themselves, we can shelve the concept of teshuva, we can shelve the concept of bechira – the choice of each individual to make their spitiual choices, we need to ignore that there will be punishment for sinners and we the concept of gehenim can be shelved as well. We need to ignore as well the fact that Hashem Himself COMMANDED us to follow his Torah.
These concepts are the basis of Yiddishkeit. There is no way we can minimize this.
In any case, I’m realizing that while I thought the cause of teens at risk should be analyzed, I’m starting to see that it makes no actual diffence as to what the cause is.
We cannot help it that there are abusive parents and that someone an treated OTD kid in a manner that caused them to go OTD. Hashem runs this world and whether the causes are behira or bechira for those who go OTD, the fact is that we cannot change the world.
What can be done in chinuch institutions, making sure that there are mentors kids can confide in, whatching out for signs that indicate internal turmoil i.e. slipping grades, being warm to the students etc., these are things that should be done to ALL students in our mosdos, all children of the Aibishter who need a little warmth and the feeling that someone cares for them, irrespective if they have ideas of going OTD or not.
no there are no exceptions, once you can clarify exactly what hte rule is, in all its detail. the torah is not black and white…..torah lo bashamayim hee… torah was given to humans not malachim…
Yet a 13 year old IS subject to the most serious punishment available to man — the death penalty.
In theory, yes. In practice, not very likely.
The Wolf
Wolfish: Its more than theory; its practice. Even a Ben Sorer — who is UNDER 13, is said (according to one) to have happened. THAT was rare. A 13 year old receiving the maximum penalty of Beis Din, there is no basis to say it was any rarer than a 50 year old. If a 13 or 50 year old was Mechallel Shabbos (with the requisite attachments — i.e. warning, witnesses, etc.) both of them were just as culpable to the death penalty — and Beis Din would NOT provide any consideration to the 13 year olds age more than the 50 year olds age.
I admit, I haven’t read this whole thread…
Philosopher –
“If we are to respect and accept sinful choices of the OTD’s”
I don’t think it is about respecting and accepting sinful choices.
Working with OTD kids is about understanding where they may be holding mentally and emotionally in order to be able to communicate with them, and possibly reach them.
I don’t think it is about respecting and accepting sinful choices.
Some people do.
Wolfish: Its more than theory; its practice. Even a Ben Sorer — who is UNDER 13, is said (according to one) to have happened. THAT was rare. A 13 year old receiving the maximum penalty of Beis Din, there is no basis to say it was any rarer than a 50 year old. If a 13 or 50 year old was Mechallel Shabbos (with the requisite attachments — i.e. warning, witnesses, etc.) both of them were just as culpable to the death penalty — and Beis Din would NOT provide any consideration to the 13 year olds age more than the 50 year olds age.
I encourage you to learn the seventh perek of Gemara Sanhedrin — Arba Misos. You will see that very often almost any possible loophole was taken to avoid giving a death penalty — to the extent that a Beis Din that executed a person every seventy years was known as a bloodthirsty court. Some Tana’im publicly took the position that if they sat on a court, there would NEVER be a death penalty.
All that being said, I have to believe that, if at all possible, a court would have bent over backwards to excuse a 13 year old due to immaturity.
So, in practice, the death penalty was rarely carried out, even when technically deserved.
The Wolf
Philosopher:
Many parents damage a kid because they mean well and have NO CLUE how to “parent” a child. Todays kids grow up in so different a world than their parents did and most parents have no clue how to relate. I think it should be a requirement that all parents go to parenting classes. Or at least read a few chinuch books but stay current. I lknow many parents that have no clue. Including my own. They thought they were doing the right thing but generally, good parenting advice is very counterintuitive. Usually whatever your instinct or reflex response to a situation is, its wrong. I wish something can be done. Parents are destroying kids left and right while acting out of “love.”
Wolf: Other than your own conjecture, which I believe is wrong, there is no reason to believe a 13 year old is treated differently by Beis Din than a 43 year old who committed the same crime/circumstances.
Wolf: Other than your own conjecture, which I believe is wrong, there is no reason to believe a 13 year old is treated differently than a 43 year old who committed the same crime/circumstances.
Considering the extent to which courts went to avoid executions and to look for reasons not to execute at all whenever possible, I believe my conjecture is based on solid reasoning.
The Wolf
I strongly beg to differ. And you have offered no evidence other than conjecture. The extents the Beis Din went to avoid implementing a death sentence, were technical ones. They did so for a 13 year old and for a 43 year old. Being 13 is no more an excuse for avoiding the death penalty, al pi din, than being 43 years old.
I strongly beg to differ. And you have offered no evidence other than conjecture. The extents the Beis Din went to avoid implementing a death sentence, were technical ones. They did so for a 13 year old and for a 43 year old. Being 13 is no more an excuse for avoiding the death penalty, al pi din, than being 43 years old.
I beg to differ. If the only reasons to avoid a conviction were technical ones, how could any Tanna definitively state that they would NEVER apply the death penalty?
The Wolf
Because there are enough technicalities out there perhaps. Age (over 13) isn’t one of them.
Because there are enough technicalities out there perhaps. Age (over 13) isn’t one of them.
Are you saying that EVERY case that came before a Beis Din had a technical fault? I hardly think that to be the case. If so, then NO Bais Din could ever convict.
The Wolf
You’re forgetting murder is hardly a Jewish crime. There were so few cases to begin with.
Murder was hardly the only crime for which the death penalty applied.
The Wolf
There were few and far between cases of a death penalty nature of any kind. We are a holy nation. That’s why we are the chosen nation.
See the Gemorah. At some point adultery became so common that they stopped using the Mai Marah to test women. I’m fairly certain that there were times when murder was fairly common as well (I’ll have to actually look up the source to be sure). Likewise, Avoda Zara was a continual problem in Biblical times.
The Wolf
EDITED
WIY – I think it was the Alter from Slabodka who said that a person should put aside half an hour each day to think about how they are being mechanech their children.
WIY, Parents were not better 100 years ago. Or two years ago for that matter.
Parents are destroying kids left and right while acting out of “love.”
I don’t agree with you. I think there are a lot of loving and caring parents.
I think it should be a requirement that all parents go to parenting classes.
Abusive parents don’t see themselves as such.
And unless you want to do what Judge Levy did in Israel and force parents to do something against their will, (which won’t work in any case), I don’t think most parents will listen to your advice.
Philosopher:
I don’t know if parents were better in the past but I do know that it is much more challenging today because kids are worse. Kids are way different because the world is way different. Chutzpah is out of hand…I often see teenage kids publicly act chutzpahdik…its much harder to bring up a kid today. If you don’t believe me ask your parents and grandparents.
I’m not talking about purposely abusing their kids. However, how many parents push their kids too hard or hold them to unrealistic expectations, or are very negative because they think the kid will try harder from criticism or fail to compliment their kids accomplishments…? These all lead to an emotionally unhealthy child and eventually unhealthy adult.
If you haven’t read chinuch books or heard shiurim on Chinuch its highly likely you are making big mistakes not even realizing it.
I personally feel that many people are too pressured and are overwelmed. They don’t enjoy their heritage because they are just told rules but are not shown the beauty. Plus, some are not prepared to fight outside ideas from college.
To prevent them from falling, they need to be given what they need emotionally and intellectually. Show them the beauty and joy of practicing. Also, let them be aware that while they might encounter other ideas elsewhere, ours is truth because…..
Kind of like how Rabbi Mechanic explains things.
We should let kids know, “It’s not up to you to complete the task, but you are not free to withdraw from it.” (Pirkei Avos) We don’t have to be perfect, we should just try to do our best.
Philosopher
There was a story that circulated recently about Reb Ahron Leib Shteinman. A menahel from a local prestigious cheder whose chinuch was known to be solid and steeped in the traditions of the fathers and grandfathers approached Reb Aharon Leib. It seems that a week or so beforehand, he was walking to his car and saw some OTD boys who approached him and started beating him. Baruch Hashem he was basically ok after some convalescing. He had recognized them, though, as boys that had been to his cheder, and recalled that they weren’t good boys, but not bad boys then either, and had handled them in the way that he was accustomed to, which was with “physical force”. He never thought twice about his approach, until after this incident. His question to Reb Aharon Leib was whether or not he was right in his derech, which WAS the derech of the generations.
Reb Aharon Leib shlita answered him that today the generation is weak. One can not be mechanech today’s children the way that previous generations had been raised, because today’s children can not hold up to it.
Perhaps that is the problem, as you say, the parents are the same. Today’s generation requires a different approach.
Yanky R. and Wolf and everybody else-
The same place where it says the stopped the mei hamarim says that murder became so common that they moved out of the lishkas hagazis so they wouldn’t be capable of meeting out the death penalty. The argument that the Jews are a holy people and commited no crimes is very naive and misinformed, one only has to skim through the navi to know that the Jewish people weren’t exactly perfect.
Ironically, this is one of the arguments that the Torah and the words of the Prophets were, at the very least, divinely mandated, for, as R’ Yaakov Weinberg says, if that wasn’t the case it would have had to have been a vicious anti-semite who wrote it. Take a look, from the moment the Jews leave Egypt and throughout the entire navi you rarely find a good word said about the Jewish people. Why would a Jew make this up?
Back to the topic though, it is clear that there was a lot of murder, adultery, cheating, lying etc. among the Jews as well.
I definitely agree with you that chinuch cannot be applied in the same manner as we did even only 50 years ago.
Perhaps that is the problem, as you say, the parents are the same. Today’s generation requires a different approach.
I do believe though that most parents approach chinuch differently than their parents.
However there is still a lot to be desired. I don’t agree with doing the correct things as parents, only because the kids shouldn’t go OTD. Although the goal is that kids should live a life Bderech Hachaim as adults, it is definitely of paramount importance, but we cannot go through life doing things, being scared of disiplining them or whatever choices we make, just so they should’nt go OTD.
What I find totaly missing today is that parents DON’T TALK ABOUT HASHEM! Yes, we say burach Hashem and that’s where it stays. But a lot of parents never talk about Hashem with their kids, or what a gift Yiddishkiet is.
MOST parents do NOT KNOW their kids and do not understand them.
A lot of parents don’t have time for them between their jobs and, dare I say it, a bunch of kids, they have no kesher to, because not everyone has the emotional kochos to have a kesher with 10 kids.
I do think that most parents are not controling, are nice, albeit frustrated by the pressures of life in the 21 century, but they do want to do and be the best parents they could.
Back to the topic though, it is clear that there was a lot of murder, adultery, cheating, lying etc. among the Jews as well.
Nu, we are in golus for a reason.
I read a story about a teacher who was meeting with parents after the second week of school. There was two kids with the same name and the teacher gave the compliment by mistake to the parents who’s kid is not so great. The next day, the kid comes to the teacher and says thanks for the compliment, nobody’s has done that for me before. – And he promised to do his best and did.
The article was about how compliments have a positive impact. Of course IF a child does something wrong, we need to advise them about the right way.
We should also notice though when they do something good like if the youth helps someone OR is studying hard, compliment that in order to encourage them to keep doing good.
Also, when a person thinks person E Won’t do well and person B Will, that’s what happens. But if you put faith in both of them to do well, then the first one will also do well.
Philosopher -“What can be done in chinuch institutions, making sure that there are mentors kids can confide in, whatching out for signs that indicate internal turmoil i.e. slipping grades, being warm to the students etc., these are things that should be done to ALL students in our mosdos, all children of the Aibishter who need a little warmth and the feeling that someone cares for them, irrespective if they have ideas of going OTD or not.”
I agree; so how come they don’t do it? They didn’t do it in the story that I posted and they don’t do it in most frum schools.
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