August 29, 2011 4:46 am at 4:46 am #598972CheinMember
If my posek paskened that an Eruv in invalid and may not be used (and that carrying in it is pure Chillul Shabbos), I may not even take action that will cause another Yid to carry in that Eruv, even if his posek allows it. That much is a given and not the subject of the following discussion. My question relates to action that may possibly, but not certainly, cause someone else to carry.
If my neighbor in the building, who uses the eruv, asks to borrow diapers on Shabbos night (Friday night), and I know that they are planning to go eat by their parents for the Shabbos afternoon seuda, may I loan them the diapers knowing that they may possibly carry it with them to their parents home?August 29, 2011 5:47 am at 5:47 am #802903Bob SquappstienParticipant
sounds like a question for your posek!
🙂August 29, 2011 5:57 am at 5:57 am #802904ObaminatorMember
Apparently the posek said he can’t cause someone else to carry. The only outstanding question is whether loaning him the diapers will or won’t cause him to carry.August 29, 2011 7:24 am at 7:24 am #802906Bob SquappstienParticipant
to which my response was: “sounds like a question for your posek!
🙂 “August 29, 2011 9:54 am at 9:54 am #802907mommamia22Participant
How do you know they are planning to take THOSE exact diapers that you are giving them to their parents. You’re not machshil unless you know for certain they are planning to do it (in my opinion). Again, I am not a rav, so don’t go by me, but it may be important to include that in your shaila.August 29, 2011 10:12 am at 10:12 am #802908
bdin lifnei eiver reb moshe holds that if the other erson is relying in a man d’amar that that is chashuv and his psak is worth something and you just follow the opposing opinion than there is no din lifnei eiver. Thus, one who does not open bottles on shabbos can ask somebody who does open them to open a bottle for him.August 29, 2011 10:14 am at 10:14 am #802909ImaofthreeParticipant
I don’t understand, won’t the neighbor be carrying anyway by pushing a stroller and carrying a diaper bag?August 29, 2011 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #802910YatzmichMember
I don’t understand the question. The guy needs the diaper, um, are you lending him the diapers or not?
As far as Hilchos Shabbos goes, what does that have to do with the poor kid who needs a diaper change? Don’t mix into your neighbor’s business, he has a posek.
What exactly is your question?August 29, 2011 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #802911Sam2Participant
Chein: Your “given” is wrong. As long as the other person has a valid opinion to rely on you can cause them to carry. R’ Shlomo Zalman used to give his famous example that someone who does not hold of the Heter Mechirah can give H”M food to someone who holds like it because they have a valid Posek to rely on. If the Eruv is actually Passul L’Chol Hadei’os then you may still be allowed to lend someone something as long as that thing has a permitted action that does not require carrying (see the Mishnayos in the end of Shevi’is; ask your Rav Lema’aseh).August 29, 2011 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #802912cherrybimParticipant
Will it cause a rift in the friendship? Will they borrow from someone else and take it anyway, if they take it at all? Seems like a s’fek s’feka.
What would happen if he asked to borrow a bottle of Coke or a can of corn and his posek held that it was mutter to open them l’chatchila, while your posek said it was assur gamur. What would you do?
Would you invite your neighbor over for Shabbos knowing that he is carrying a tissue in his pocket? Or would you give him shalom in the street knowing that he may take off his glove to shake your hand?
There is no end to this and I don’t think you are responsible for his keeping the Shabbos the way your posek determines it versus his posek.August 29, 2011 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #802913
cherrybim- there is a chiluk of eiver lnahar by lifnei eiverAugust 29, 2011 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #802914rescue37Participant
I went to boro park for shabbos to somebody who uses the eruv and we knew in advance would want to take our baby to shul on shabbos. We asked a posek and were told you don’t say anything to her and you don’t stop her.August 29, 2011 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #802915HaLeiViParticipant
You know that that person won’t have an Aveira, so there is no Lifnei Iver. What your Posek probably told you was that you shouldn’t ask someone to carry for you. Even that is not that simple, since it isn’t Amira Le’akum. By a Yid there is a concept of Ein Shliach Lidvar Aveira. However, if you hold that the problem of Amira Le’akum is Vedabru Davar, then you would have a problem saying it straight out.August 30, 2011 12:05 am at 12:05 am #802916
halevi- what about lifnei eiver?
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