June 7, 2020 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1868620emetsealofhashemParticipant
Please do do you research, (Zohar במדבר קיז עייב)
Counting Am Israel brings magefa and the beracha leaves am Israël. Do not follow the call of Agudath Israel, unless you really want another magefa R’LJune 7, 2020 1:16 am at 1:16 am #1868636lowerourtuition11210Participant
Who is doing a census o fklal yisroel?June 7, 2020 8:31 am at 8:31 am #1868651MilhouseParticipant
Also, nobody is counting people, they’re entering the information from forms and calculating a total from that. How’s that different from counting the shekels and multiplying by two?June 7, 2020 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1868655shomershabbatParticipant
Interesting. I was recently thinking that this mageifa happened right after the grand crowds at various Siyum Hashas venues, where the exact amount of people were counted and displayed in the local frum papers. I closed my eyes and held my breath when the numbers were stated, hoping that nothing bad would come of it. But alas the events right afterwards proved otherwise. I’m left wondering why this was never brought up in conversations about the virus. In the days of Dovid Hemelech, he too wanted to count Bnei Yisroel and a terrible mageifa erupted until he realized why it happened. Never put a number on Klal Yisroel. We are numerous like the starts in the sky and the sand.June 7, 2020 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1868657shomershabbatParticipant
Siyum HashasJune 7, 2020 9:30 am at 9:30 am #1868692The little I knowParticipant
Here we go again, second guessing HKB”H. There is no one among us who knows exactly what the reason for COVID was, and trying to make one up, even if logical, is a futile effort at claiming to be greater than one truly is.
The census is aimed at counting all people, and nothing to do specifically with Jews. So, stop it.
There is no exact count of how many people attended the Siyum Hashas. All we really have is a collection of estimates, with input of some numbers, and the people from both law enforcement and media who claim to have expertise in estimating crowd sizes. So these numbers do not matter at all. I have no way to know what caused the mageifa, and I do not think it is respectful or Torah consistent to claim that one does know. All we should be doing is to cope with the situation, and to self-examine to see where we can better ourselves.June 7, 2020 9:53 am at 9:53 am #1868701n0mesorahParticipant
1) Jews are not being counted separately in the census. No problem here.
2) The siyum hashas was an estimation. No problem there.
3) What part of coronavirus was right after the siyum hashas?
4) This kind of thinking just for the purpose of defying Agudah (or the government) is a problem.June 7, 2020 9:54 am at 9:54 am #1868698☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Interesting. I was recently thinking that this mageifa happened right after the grand crowds at various Siyum Hashas venues, where the exact amount of people were counted and displayed in the local frum papers.
That’s not counting klal Yisroel, that’s counting (probably imprecisely) the number of people in a particular building at a particular time.June 7, 2020 10:21 am at 10:21 am #1868713
The U.S. Census brings brocho ($$$) and representation to states in direct proportion to the population calculated (indirectly as Milhouse pointed out). Anyone who doesn’t cooperate, especially if you refuse when the census bureau follows up with your household directly, causes a Chilul Hashem of the highest magnitude.June 7, 2020 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1868723
Not cooperating with the Census Bureau is like chasing away the mailman and then wondering, “How come there’s no mail in my box?”June 7, 2020 11:36 am at 11:36 am #1868747catch yourselfParticipant
Old Crown Heights –
I agree with your main points. I just think that the “highest magnitude” is excessive hyperbole, and Halachically incorrect. The Chillul Hashem would have to be of a higher magnitude when it involves deliberately violating a Mitzvah in public.
It’s silly (at best) to impute our own logic to HKBH. One reason people might do so is to comfort themselves.
Not participating in the census is, for some people, validation of what they were doing anyway.
If the reason for our current suffering were something else, that might affect their lives dramatically. Imagine if, for example, they would have to start actually keeping Hilchos Lashon Hara. This would represent a huge change for many people, one which they may not feel ready to undertake.
It’s easier if the problem is simple, like the census.
It’s exactly the same thing as blaming people who aren’t Torah observant. If it’s their fault, I don’t have to do anything to fix it, I just have to make it clear how terrible they are.June 7, 2020 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1868783charliehallParticipant
The US Census has *never* counted Jews. There is no issue of concern here.June 7, 2020 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1868802
The number one reason for not participating in the census is ignorance. Number two absence (which is no problem so we’ll leave that out.) Number three extreme selfishness/inconsideration such as when people say they don’t have the “time.” Which is as about as selfish as opposing Hatzalah because it adds traffic to the road when you want to drive somewhere. Number four is probably anti-government sentiment. People are angry at the government for an unrelated reason so they take it out on the census (which is really a subsection of #1) and then there is illness. Some people are too sick to respond and maybe they have no one to help them. Since the census uses translators (including Yiddish an Hebrew) lack of English is no reason. I guess there are people can claim laziness or something. When a census enumerator is (illegally) thrown out by a frum Yid the chilul Hashem is of the highest magnitude. Not hyperbole at all. It reveals (or confirms) a level of ignorance (and their lack of that person’s education and / or civility) that’s hard to overestimate. The 10-year census of every person is required by the constitution. That’s the only obligation for every person in the United States. You can’t name a single other one. Because there isn’t any. When someone refuses the census (even though we no longer prosecute) it’s a very poor showing in the eyes of the employees of the census bureau. And when a Yid foolishly behaves that way, it’s also a massive, needless chilul Hashem.June 7, 2020 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1868813
The decennial census doesn’t count Jews, but the U.S. Census Bureau also conducts a sample survey called NCVS (Natl Crime Victimization Survey) which among many crimes measures hate crimes, including anti-Semitic hate crimes. If there is a lack of cooperation in a “Jewish area” these uncooperative people are not causing, but certainly hampering the Federal government from combating [the rising magefa of] Antisemitism.June 7, 2020 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1868821
I forgot to include drunk on my list. Maybe the person is too shikker to answer a few questions.June 7, 2020 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1868965GadolhadorahParticipant
Perhaps those posters who blame “the magafah” on the census should share their revelations with the Trumpkpopf. Since his rants and tweets blaming the (Wuhand) Magafah on China have not gotten much traction,, he can float some trial balloons blaming the pandemic on the “deep state” operatives at the U.S. Census Bureau.June 8, 2020 6:21 am at 6:21 am #1868984MilhouseParticipant
Never put a number on Klal Yisroel.
That’s a funny thing to say when we’re reading in the Torah about multiple times that Hashem commanded Moshe to make exact counts of people and reports the exact numbers. The Torah also says how to do it — indirectly, by using half-shkolim. Using forms is even more indirect.
But I refuse to cooperate with the census, because I want my state and my neighborhood to lose representation. Since there is no prospect of that representation going to anyone but Democrats, I want it to be as small as possible, and removing one person from the count gets me an infinitesimal step closer to that goal.
And what a bizarre thing it is co call it a chilul haShem! You seem to think that is a word you can just toss around to mean whatever you don’t like.
Oh, and the constitution requires the government to prepare a count of the population. It does not require me to cooperate.June 8, 2020 10:17 am at 10:17 am #1869086
It does not require me to cooperate. Ok. Per the census bureau website participation is mandatory, as described in Title 13 of the U.S. Code. (So organizing a census is from the Constitution and the obligation for people to participate is from the U.S. Code.) So at a minimum you have issues with dina d’malchusa, no?
A big fan of your posts over the years, your reason for not cooperating is very “Milhouse” and honestly you crack me up.
As for the chilul Hashem part, you might reconsider. I didn’t use that term loosely. If you don’t send in the form no one knows who lives there. But if an enumerator comes out to your residence and you refuse them in person and you look like a frum Jew (added to the others who refuse for less unique reasons) the benefit you gain from minutely advancing your political agenda is seemingly outweighed by the negative perception you likely cause. If for no other reason how much it costs the taxpayers for follow up. Maybe if you’re really friendly and spend time explaining your reason for not participating you can make a Kiddush Hashem, as they’ll think this guy isn’t ignorant/apathetic/nasty he’s just off his rocker and it will help individuate the community.June 8, 2020 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1869109n0mesorahParticipant
Representation may have been the reason for the census, but it is not so reliant on it anymore. (The process has become corrupted.) The census is used to determine State budgets and Federal projects. It affects your community’s education and transportation dollars. And so on.June 8, 2020 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1869127
I should add that in 2000 I initially refused (for no good reason) and ended up in a long conversation with a census bureau employee who came to my house.June 8, 2020 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #1869145HBSParticipant
Al tifrosh min hatzibbur.
Every yachid comes with his own ‘chachma’ why not to participate.June 8, 2020 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1869151GadolhadorahParticipant
Milhouse’s strategy is correct. By refusing to participate, he and his like-minded chevrah can honestly claim that ANY census-based reapportionment plan, resource allocation plan etc. is RIGGED and Flawed because certain demographic groups (e.g. right-wing, cynical, Trumpkopf loving yidden) were not counted.June 8, 2020 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1869184The little I knowParticipant
Your comment is pediatric. You should certainly voice your opinion on a thread about the census to address the subject matter. But you have no mature basis for bringing in your sentiments about Trump. Regardless of whether I disagree or not, it’s a diversion that speaks poorly of the intellect you purport to possess. Grow up and address the subject.
Having noted this, it is apparent in so many ways, both in the CR and even in the MSM, that the anti-Trump position is highly emotional, and is inserted anywhere one believes it may be influential. Trump support or opposition has zero to do with the census, and i assume you do know this. Perhaps you would serve yourself better by keeping those sentiments alive in your comments on that subject, not here.June 8, 2020 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #1869416
Please do do you research, (Zohar במדבר קיז עייב)
Counting Am Israel brings magefa and the beracha leaves am Israël. Do not follow the call of Agudath Israel, unless you really want another magefa R’L
Of course, if this were true, we’d see a pattern of plagues every ten years. I don’t believe the data supports this.
The WolfJune 9, 2020 12:47 am at 12:47 am #1869423
Reb Wolf: As you haven’t responded to our Erev Shavuos conversation whereupon I referred you to a specific date of our communications via electronic mail, describing the nature of that eight year old conversation, based upon the principle of Shtika K’hodaah I believe we have mutually resolved our difference of memory in my favor.June 9, 2020 8:34 am at 8:34 am #1869509
Reb Wolf: As you haven’t responded to our Erev Shavuos conversation whereupon I referred you to a specific date of our communications via electronic mail, describing the nature of that eight year old conversation, based upon the principle of Shtika K’hodaah I believe we have mutually resolved our difference of memory in my favor.
Or, I simply forgot about it in the week or so since I was last on these boards. I’ll look into the matter and get back to you on that thread.
The WolfJune 9, 2020 10:13 am at 10:13 am #1869520
Baruch Hashem you’ve finally accepted the title Reb without protest.June 9, 2020 11:12 am at 11:12 am #1869596
Baruch Hashem you’ve finally accepted the title Reb without protest.
The WolfJune 9, 2020 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1869607catch yourselfParticipant
“As you haven’t responded… based upon the principle of Shtika K’hodaah…”
Shtika in Beis Din is one thing. Shtika in the CR is something else. Often, one may choose not to reply because the salient points have already been made, and there is little value in spinning the wheels.June 9, 2020 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #1869693
OK, can we stop the side conversation and get back to the actual purpose of this thread.
If a Census truly brought a plague, we’d be able to see a very clear pattern of it in not only the US (with the decennial census), but also in other countries that have censuses on a regular basis. Since we don’t see that pattern, it’s safe to say that the national censuses do not cause plague.
The WolfJune 9, 2020 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1869759yehudayonaParticipant
Milhouse, I’m guessing from your comment that you live in a solidly blue state. Why don’t you move to a red state where your tiny contribution to the census will swing apportionment in the direction you want? Or better yet, move to a purple state where your presidential vote will actually count?June 9, 2020 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1869773
YY: It’s too late. The census counts based on where you lived on April 1, 2020. Milhouse will have to wait another 10 years to implement your suggestion regarding apportionment.
Regarding voting, you can have dual residences and choose which one you wish to register to vote from. Even if it isn’t your primary residence, according to court precedent.June 9, 2020 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1869872yehudayonaParticipant
True, Joseph, that it’s too late for the census, but he can still move to a purple state for the election.
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