Chabad hate on YWN?

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  • #1721860

    Defend Chabad
    Participant

    Over the past few years, I’ve noticed a disturbing trend in Yeshiva World’s CR forum, one that perhaps isn’t significant enough to fuss over or get hysterical about but, nevertheless, I feel is worth broaching in order to get an idea of its gravity, if not to be convinced of its unimportance.

    The subject that I speak of refers to the recent uptick on insensitive or disrespectful comments directed at the Chabad – Lubavitch movement as a whole or, ch”v, at The Rebbe himself, comments which I don’t think need to be put on the map, being that I’m sure anyone who has frequented this forum in the last couple of months – at least – knows exactly what I’m referring to.

    What I find equally as disturbing is the fact that the moderators of CR, whose job it is to censor and fact check opinions that are submitted, don’t seem to be doing anything to prevent these comments from being posted, indicating that they agreed, at least partially with what the participants were posting.. Being that CR itself wasn’t doing anything about it, decided to go to the higher – ups and contact YWN itself, and lo and behold, not one of my Emails – out of the many that I sent – received a response! Additionally, whenever I form a response to one of the participants, defending Chabad’s position, my replies are never approved, even though they are much more respectfully written than the others.

    The reason why I think this topic deserves attention is because out of all the time periods that existed so far, in the times we live in now where hate and animosity is ever so prevalent, as can be seen from the recent Anti – Semitic attacks that have plagued our nation in the recent months, the only way to combat darkness is by spreading light – light in this context meaning peace and love – not by disparaging and hate-filled comments, designed to disparage and belittle others. I sincerely hope that this disturbing practice will come to a stop with time, as is well known, the main impediment to Moshiach’s arrival is strife and controversy which serve only to separate and distance one yid from another. May we merit his coming speedily in our days Amen.

    #1722191

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    I wouldn’t call it hate as all Jews are loved, even the mistaken Jews. But part of veahavta is helping Jews go on the correct derech. Chabad believes in this, and so does the litvish, who view violations of the 13 ikkarim as serious. It’s no different than the “snag bashing” on Lubavitch sites which is just pointing out how the snags are wrong for rejecting your moshiach like we do with Yeshu hanotzri.

    #1722193

    DovidBT
    Participant

    the moderators of CR, whose job it is to censor and fact check opinions that are submitted

    Is that really their job?

    I hope not

    #1722263

    Lit
    Participant

    This seems to be an attempt to squelch important discussion about Lubavitch because some Lubavitcher allegedly got offended by it.

    Well, when you have Lubavitchers here, like “Rebbitzen” attacking others, and her posts are let through, if some people want to respond to them, it is only fair to allow refutations through as well.

    #1722270

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Defend Chabad,

    Do you go on Chabad forums and say the same thing when Rav shachs name is mentioned

    Additionally,moderators aren’t fact checkers

    #1722272

    jdf007
    Participant

    …and those attacking threads like to make it up as they go along.

    If I wanted to hear fairy tales, I’d like to one of these questionable democratic candidates speak at their fake Mueller hearings.

    #1722265

    Lit
    Participant

    This (first of the thread) post is like the left wingers on liberal college campuses trying to ban conservative speakers and conservative speech there. Freedom of speech for them is one sided, for liberals. Those who (gasp) disagree with them are labeled as haters. Similarly here, posters such as this one are trying to label those who disagree with Lubavitch as “haters”. But that is not the Jewish way. Disagreeing with something is not the same as being a “hater”. If you disagree with your brother or cousin, does that mean that you hate them? The two should not be confused.

    Freedom to post here is not for Lubavitchers only. Lubavitchers have plenty of their own websites online. Those that want a pure diet of Lubavitcher PR and propaganda, with no back and forth or dialogue, can go to such places.

    #1722312

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Let me put it to you this way: Let’s say this forum was full of Open “Orthodox” Jews who look and sound like regular frum Jews, but honestly believe in things such as intermarriage, toevah marriage, and shechita as a tzar ba’alei chayim issue, there would be no end of posts of Torah Jews arguing that they are mistaken and their beliefs are not what frum Yiddishkeit is about, in fact quite the opposite. We wouldn’t hate them. We would just be upset that they were raised to believe in things that are contrary to the Torah and believe that following those things still makes them frum’eh Yidden.

    That’s how the overwhelming vast majority of the frum oilom views Chabad-Lubavitch.

    #1722487

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Thank you yserbius for your explanation. I hope those who can benefit from it will refrain from latching onto the oo reference and missing your point completely.
    Well done.

    #1722505

    ModernMisnaged
    Participant

    @Defend Chabad:”whose job it is to censor and fact check opinions that are submitted.” So know we’re going to start “Fact Checking Opinions”?! That’s a new one….

    #1722518

    Psalm 97:10

    #1722538

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    ” Let’s say this forum was full of Open “Orthodox” Jews who look and sound like regular frum Jews, but honestly believe in things such as intermarriage, toevah marriage, and shechita as a tzar ba’alei chayim issue, there would be no end of posts of Torah Jews arguing that they are mistaken and their beliefs are not what frum Yiddishkeit is about”

    Funny, the CR actually did used to sort of be that way. They’re all gone now. I assume we were mekarev them and now they’re all too frum for the internet 😉

    #1722729

    LA boy
    Participant

    @lit while I disagree with @defendchabad that the moderators job is to fact check everything posted I do think that if they’re going to let through all the nasty comments bashing chabad (and I mean specifically the comments bashing chabad not the nicely worded ones that simply disagree with chabad) they should also let through all the nasty comments bashing litvish (or at least the nicely worded ones for that matter that they don’t let through for some reason)
    In short it should go both ways if you let people argue against chabad then let people defend them also and if you let people bash chabad then let people bash litvish also

    no matter how “nicely” you word it we do not post  denigrating comments on gedolim or deifying comments directed towards humans 

    #1725781

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    i wanted to say this for so long its ok to bash chabad but noone else?
    dont bash anyone at all . chas visholom to bash anyone else but its ok to bash us? No!

    #1725921

    Over the years countless gedolim, Rosh Yeshiva, Admorim, Rabbonim, poskim have come to farbrengen of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, yechidus, dollar line, kos shel bracha. They attended lubavitcher functions and learned the seforim of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

    Is it possible that they were being c”v “mechazek yedei reshoim” – after all, some posted that Sichos have “kefira” in them? Some posted Lubavitcher don’t keep basic halacha (like sleeping in sukka), yet how do these gedolim, including Reb Moshe Feinstein ztzl seek counsel by visiting for yechidus?

    Are we all smarter them all the Admorim? Do we stand more for halacha than the poskim like Rav Menasha Klein ztzl?

    The posters here bash, while gedolim, Rosh Yeshiva, Admorim and poskim express honor and utmost respect. Their actions speak louder then any posting.

    #1725951

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Visits, learning, yes. Honor and utmost respect? Not so certain that was the case. Respect for Torah knowledge, absolutely. Your words derived from their actions may make you feel good but I have heard otherwise from some family members of those you mention.

    #1725969

    RebbetzinG, etc.
    We do emphasize .
    it is painful to reassess how You & yours have been indoctrinated .Cognitive dissonance

    #1725973

    empathize typo

    #1726077

    Lit
    Participant

    “Rebbetzin”:

    “Over the years countless gedolim, Rosh Yeshiva, Admorim, Rabbonim, poskim have come to farbrengen of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, yechidus, dollar line, kos shel bracha…”

    Many of them were Hasidic, of Hasidic background, or roots, like Reb Menashe Klein.

    Yes, there were some non-Hasidic who at times had some contact, but it was limited. Some of them didn’t fully realize how much Lubavitch had changed under the last Rebbe, and how times had changed in general. When they thought of Lubavitch, they thought of a different Lubavitch of the past, before his reign. One such personality, a renowned Rosh Yeshiva, a great man, was considered like a ‘Chofetz Chaim’, so perhaps he was not aware or didn’t give credence to reports of changes due to his pietistic way of life, and went to be menachem aveil after Rebbetzin C.M. passed away. Nevertheless, the Litvishe world in general, especially as time went by and Lubavitch became more and more openly messianic, distanced itself more and more from it. When Rav Schach ztvk”l zy”a came out against Lubavitch that also made a big impression on that world. It is important to see what date such things occurred, if they occurred at all, and to examine the details and circumstances closely. If a Rosh Yeshiva visited in the 1940’s or 1950’s, it does not mean that he would have necessarily done so at a later date.

    As for the claim that Rav Moshe Feinstein z”l, zy”a, ‘sought counsel by visiting the late Rebbe for yechidus’, if you Google Rav Moshe Feinstein yechidus, the first result will lead you to an article that explains it. Basically it says that Rav Moshe was asked by someone he worked with to be mesader kiddushin for his wedding in Crown Heights, which he did. Since he was there, right next to to the late Lubavitcher Rebbe, afterward they met for a while, discussing matters of Klal. The Rebbe asked Rav Moshe a sheila, which Rav Moshe answered. To make it sound like it was yechidus, like when a Hasid visits his Rebbe, is incorrect. Rav Moshe was not a Hasid of the Rebbe, and he was also older than him.

    #1726094

    JewIsh1
    Participant

    Sad to see so many “frum” Jews speaking poorly of other Jews, tens if not hundreds of thousands of Jews. I wonder if your Rabbis are proud of you. I wonder if they do the same. Doubt it.

    #1726117

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Jewish1-you seem to have missed the point in a big way. It is *because* of their rabbis that they make a machaa against certain practices (not the ones practicing, a point that is deliberately twisted by those practicing).

    #1726125

    JewIsh1
    Participant

    Syag-“We would just be upset that they were raised to believe in things that are contrary to the Torah and believe that following those things still makes them frum’eh Yidden.

    That’s how the overwhelming vast majority of the frum oilom views Chabad-Lubavitch”.

    Let me translate….most of the “frum oilom” believes that chabad are not “frume”.

    Missed the point?

    #1726129

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yes, missed the point. The same way you believe it is sad that their lack of knowledge of chassis us is preventing moshiach from coming. Is that hate? No, it’s following the mesorah you were given.

    #1726131

    JewIsh1
    Participant

    I did not say that. Don’t put words in my mouth.

    Furthermore, since when is loshon hara a “mesorah”?

    #1726221

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “In short it should go both ways if you let people argue against chabad then let people defend them also and if you let people bash chabad then let people bash litvish also”
    They have let through all the standard Litvish arguments against Chabad and all the Chabad arguments against us. When people cross the line, they usually get modded. I don’t know where you’ve been, but a certain anti-Chabad account or two was getting deleted or edited on nearly every post.

    I think comments made my Lubavitchers on another thread, specifically Rebbitzin Goldenpick, about gedolim crossed the line and I was surprised they were let through. The same has clearly happened to you on the other side.

    In contrast, by the way, I will grant you that the home page is extremely biased and anti-Chassidishe. They have daily 2 minutes of Satmar hate over there.

    #1727302

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Avigdor Miller on The Superiority of Lubavitcher Jews

    Q:  Why do Lubavitcher chassidim consider themselves superior to litvisheh Jews?

    A: First of all, Lubavitcher chassidim are mostly litvisheh Jews you have to know. They are litvishe Jews. And if they consider themselves superior, so we can ask the same question: Why is it that most non-Lubavitcher chassidim consider themselves superior to Lubavitcher chassidim? Why do Breslover chassidim consider themselves superior to Lubavitcher chassidim? And why do Satmerer chassidim consider themselves superior to Breslover chassidim? And the answer is that all idealists who follow certain systems, they do it because they think it’s the best system – otherwise they’d follow a different system. It’s common sense! What should a man be a Lubavitcher if he thinks something else is better? Why should a non-Lubavitcher be non-Lubavitcher unless he thinks that it’s better. All idealists follow the system they follow because they think it’s the best.

    Now, who is going to be the arbiter and say who is the best? Moshiach will come, and in order to keep peace between everybody, he’ll say, “You’re all the best!” And the truth is that they areall the best. But right now, it’s not really a question if the Lubavitcheh feel superior, because if you ask a litvishe yeshiva bochur, he feels he’s superior. Ask a Satmarer and he feels he’s superior. And go into a sefardisheh yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel, go into Porat Yosef, and he’s knows that he’s superior too. Everyone is superior.

    And the answer is that’s how idealists have to be. No idealist will do something that he thinks is not superior.

    TAPE # 271

    #1727864

    Joseph,

    It may have been largely the case in the end of the 70s ( tape 271)
    could that however be said to be the case today?!
    younger people are mostly on the conveyor belt way they were raised And indoctrinated

    #1750083

    Defend Chabad
    Participant

    It seems that the main complaint against my post is that it is not the mods’ job to censor and fact check every post before its approved.

    To clarify, my intention was not that the mods are responsible to investigate and research every comment to determine whether it’s true or not, rather that if they see something that is not worded respectfully or contains some gross untruths, they should be considerate enough – and it may even be their responsibility – not to allow them from going through when it’s obvious that their opinion will be attacked, and we’ve seen instances in which mods did not allow a comment to go through, because of the vulgarity it contained.
    So why, in heaven’s name, when people word grossly despicable things about the Rebbe, does YWN not stand up in his honor?????

    #1752833

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    No one here says insulting things about the Rebbe. It is his followers that bring shame upon him. If they would just be quiet, nobody would give two hoots about him.

    But you insist on making a new religion and foisting it upon the rest of us as authentic yiddishkeit, so yeah, some negative things may come out against the Rebbe, just like they came out against Shabsai Tzvi and Oiso Ha’ish (Not Rav Shach zt”l, the other one)

    #1752895

    Grey matter
    Participant

    I have no hatred for Chabad I love them. They are personally wonderful people and they are my brothers. I do find some ideas that seem to be particularly prevalent in chabad circles to be objectionable. Let us imagine a group of people behaving in a way that is morally bankrupt. Let’s say for example they said young children getting married and child abuse are good ideas in the 21 century. Or that we should go into secular Jewish neighborhoods and rough up anyone who isn’t observant to our standards. Feel free to imagine your own immoral possibilities. Well what would happen if those things became well known? There would naturally be a big public out cry.All of the gedolim and all the people would object. But if the leader of the immoral leadership would say “I am right I am a greater gadol. They are all tainted”. I would hope that their followers would follow the rest of klal Yisroel and the gedolim when they draw a line. If they don’t it would seem impossible to dissuade these well meaning followers of their errors. We would view our misguided brethren with great pity and hope they can one day see the truth. But if one won’t listen to reason,sources or gedolim there is very little we can do. We know people have a profound ability to corrupt themselves as we see all of the indiscretions that happened right after yitzies mitzrayim and Matan Torah. We pray for them cry for them and wait longingly for our brothers to correct themselves.

    #1752894

    hml
    Participant

    WOW! Some of you posters are really sick & offensive.

    I’m a Lubavitcher who was raised Yeshivish & I can’t begin to tell you the flack I got from my family for becoming Chabad. We are old school Chabad: We are Chassidish, we don’t compromise & quite frankly, we DON’T CARE WHO MOSHIACH IS! He just needs to show up already!

    But it is incumbent of every generation to search for Moshiach of their time. Ze hu.

    As for RebbetzinG… nobody in their right mind can take her rants seriously. Yes, she does do a great disservice to the majority of Lubavitchers – like us- who learn, daven, follow the hora’as of our Rebbeim & busy ourselves with helping other Jews. (Lubavitchers also don’t call police Nazis, by the way.)

    As for bias on YWN against Chabad…. I don’t think that’s true. Everyone here hates equally. I have read comments from “frum” people that are shocking in their viciousness and name-calling. As someone above said, disagreeing with a particular group’s ethos is OK, attacking its members with spite & hate is another thing entirely.

    Tomorrow is Gimmel Tammuz, the 25th Yartzheit of the Rebbe. I lived in Crown Heights then. Agree or disagree with Chabad & the Rebbe, we are used to that.

    edited – I would have just deleted but the rest of the post was too good to pass up

    And then you vayn over the fact that Moshiach isn’t here??? A gutten Shabbos to all of you, whether or not you “approve” of us. Personally, I really don’t care anymore.

    #1752899

    Grey matter
    Participant

    To clarify: I am not saying that rabbi shneerson is the leader in that example. I am not saying he advocated for anything wich is objectionable. I assume everything he said is wonderful. I am simply saying I don’t care what he did and didn’t say(esp as it seems his position on many of these thing are indeterminable). I simply know know what many of his followers believe is misguided. And even if he would say misguided things a line would have to be drawn.

    #1752918

    DovidBT
    Participant

    No one here says insulting things about the Rebbe. It is his followers that bring shame upon him.

    That’s a very good point. I have no criticism of the Chabad movement as a whole. Some of its followers, on the other hand, while nice and mean well, behave like it’s a cult and indoctrinate rather than teach.

    #1752928

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    “We are old school Chabad: We are Chassidish, we don’t compromise & quite frankly, we DON’T CARE WHO MOSHIACH IS! He just needs to show up already!

    But it is incumbent of every generation to search for Moshiach of their time. Ze hu.”

    Anyone else see the contradiction between the first sentence and the second? If you search – you care!!

    Pro-Tip for the so-called “snags” from a chossid turned snag: If a chabadnik tells you he “doesn’t care” who Moshiach is, he believes the Rebbe is Moshaich in his heart (he just doesn’t have any proof to it.)

    #1753101

    LA boy
    Participant

    As a lubavitcher who believes the rebbe can still be Moshiach (and I don’t believe anyone, including the rebbe, is Moshiach until Moshiach actually comes) I have nothing against people who respectfully disagree but when you start bashing my rebbe don’t be surprised when you start being bashed also

    #1753135

    Grey matter
    Participant

    La boy this isn’t about beliefs.The Halacha is very clear that he is disqualified as he died. But would you please Adress my point. We know everyone can due great sins. Even sins of heresy. For example, acher and Yochanan kohen gadol. How would we know if a leader went off. (Once again I am not suggesting the Lubavitcher rebbe went off. I would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.)But pls answer my question.

    <span style=”color: #ff00ff”>He can’t answer your question because I keep deleting his posts (about how he can’t understand why it’s so hard for people to accept that the Rebbe is a deity etc etc)</span>

    #1753202

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Mods, can you let them in? it will be quite educational for those unaware of the seedier aspects of Lubavich today.

    #1753296

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    From Collive today: (This is a MAINSTREAM normal chabad website – not meshichist:)
    Shabbos Night Live with Rabbi Shmuel Butman – special broadcast for Gimmel Tammuz: The Rebbe himself will find a way to answer your questions and give you his guidance and the special mission he gave each one of us.

    They believe the Rebbe has koach in this world – pure avoda zara (yiddishkeit believes tzadikim can intercede in shamayim, chabad believes the Rebbe controls both worlds.)

    #1753305

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    @Yrs; Doesn’t shomayim (Bais Din shel maaloh) control this world? So if a Tzadik intercedes in shomayim isn’t he influencing (controlling to an extent) this world?

    #1753308

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Uncle Ben. True. But is that what the article implies? (you can watch the video as well, it’s called “Litvish Couple sees the Rebbe in a dream”.

    From the article (and from Butman’s previous views) it seems that the Rebbe himself will find a way to answer your questions HERE, BY HIMSELF.

    #1753309

    keraveltheint
    Participant

    Yeshivish Rockstar, I really like you.
    But here what you’re saying isn’t correct. The belief that a tzadik has power in this world is not just a Chabad concept, but rather a concept in general Chassidus…

    I quote from the Parshas Naso edition (5779) of “Di Yiddishe Tzeit” a Satmar newspaper, from an interview with Kavod Kadushas ADMO”R from Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok, in which he quotes his teacher, HaRebbe Hakadosh Rebbi Yehuda Horowitz ZT”L of Dzhikov:

    “The Rebbe Shlit”a explained, That he would hear often from him (HaRebbe of Dzhikov), that for tzadikim the strength is given from Shomayim to run the world how they desire it to be run, they hold the world in their hands….” It continues with a story about the Tzemach Tzadik (not to be confused with the Tzemach Tzedek) which serves to show how, and I quote, “that the Tzemach Tzadik runs the entire world with his holy hands…”

    Are both the ADMO”R of Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok and HaRebbe Hakadosh of Dzhikov both espousing “pure avodah zarah” also? Or could it be you don’t have the cornerstone on Torah truth?

    And before you claim that this is only talking about a Tzadik before they are nistalek, I’ll save myself the trouble of writing a rebuttal: The Lubavitcher Rebbe ZY”A wrote this about the Previous Rebbe N”E after his histalkus.

    Hashem gives certain influences and energies to the world based on how Bnei Yisroel act, (this is described in in Nefesh HaChaim from Rebbi Chaim Vitebsker ZTZ”AL as how “pure” (tatztzuchei haOr) the light Hashem gives to the world is) a Tzadik directs and effects how Bnei Yisroel act (and even more so, can be described as something of a microcosom of Bnei Yisroel themselves) and therefore, how the Tzadik acts affects how Hashem chooses to relate to this world. Obviously this is always in a way that is like an ax in the hand of the cutter. AKA that the Tzadik is only a tool of Hashem.

    #1753310

    RSo
    Participant

    hml: “But it is incumbent of every generation to search for Moshiach of their time. Ze hu.”

    Ze hu, says who?

    Where does it say it is incumbent of (sic) every generation to search for Moshiach of their time? I don’t believe it says it anywhere other than in recent lubavich sources, but I’m willing to be proven mistaken if I am.

    #1753384

    Grey matter
    Participant

    This is not a criticism as I don’t know enough. But if indeed you are right and this is standard chasidish thought. How is that diff than the ovoda zara throughout history. Where people prayed for the sun and stars to intercede on their behalf to Hashem.

    #1753473

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    keravelt: Valid point. I was wrong. I stand corrected: There is nothing wrong with believing a Tzaddik can control the world after his petira.

    But where Chabad is still wrong is in asking the Tzaddik to do things for them even not by the kever! All the seforim hakedoshim state that theres a heter of asking a tzaddik to do something for you when two conditions (and you need BOTH) are met: 1) You are at the Tzaddiks kever 2) You ask him to intercede on your behalf to Hashem (not ask him for him himself to do something for you.) Yet chabad routinely violates these two conditions without a second thought. (with igros etc). And thats Avoda Zara. (I have personally heard lubavichers say stuff like “Rebbe, help me” not at the Ohel, which goes against the ani maamins.)

    BTW, keravelt, what do you think of the song “The Rebbe Lives”? (It’s on Oh Rebbe 2: The Rebbe Lives by
    Mendy Chanin search it on Spotify) The lyrics are “The Rebbe sees, The Rebbe knows, the Rebbe hears” etc. It sounds like Avoda Zara to me. These type of songs are unique to chabad. Can you imagine a song “Rav Shach Lives” with the same lyrics? I can’t.

    While Chabad does alot of great things, there are a lot of confused people there and many of them are unwittingly serving avoda zara. This needs to stop. A Kol Koreh saying “The Rebbe is not Moshiach. Period.” might be a good place to start. Ker A Velt – answer me honestly: What percentage of Chabad rabbanim would sign such a kol koreh? I think very few.

    (who knows, nowadays we might need a kol koreh saying “The Rebbe is not god”.)

    #1753697

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    How about this quote – the Rebbe is in “the whole worlds – even in metal and trees! Is that not Avoda Zara??
    “תראה לי עסק שמתפתח בלי הבעלים. מאז הסתלקות הרבי, שאנחנו לא רואים אותו בגוף – העסק הגדיל את עצמו פי 4. לא צריך להאמין. הוא בכל מקום – בברזל, בזכוכית, בעץ, בבטון. אם אתה מסתכל על הרבי כאדם טבעי, אז ברור שאי אפשר להמשיך בלעדיו. הרבי היה אדם פיזי כדי שהשכל שלנו יוכל להבין ולקלוט, אנחנו אנשים שמאמינים במה שאנחנו רואים. אבל אם אתה לוקח אותו כאדם רוחני שדבריו ממשיכים להתפשט בעולם והוא שליח של הקב”ה – היום הוא חי יותר מאז, כי אז היה יכול להיות רק בברוקלין ועכשיו בכל העולם”.
    From The Globe newspaper in honor of Gimmel Tammuz. The article is called: הוא עוד ישוב: 25 שנה למותו של הרבי מלובביץ’, ובכפר חב”ד הוא עדיין נמצא בכל פינה. Its really required reading. Search for it on google.

    Btw, we really need to combine all these chabad threads.

    #1753700

    Grey matter
    Participant

    “keravelt: Valid point. I was wrong. I stand corrected: There is nothing wrong with believing a Tzaddik can control the world after his petira.

    But where Chabad is still wrong is in asking the Tzaddik to do things for them even not by the kever! All the seforim hakedoshim state that theres a heter of asking a tzaddik to do something for you when two conditions (and you need BOTH) are met: 1) You are at the Tzaddiks kever 2) You ask him to intercede on your behalf to Hashem (not ask him for him himself to do something for you.) “

    I see a tremendous difference between 2 things you mentioned. Asking someone who died to talk to Hashem and saying tzadikim have power. One of them is talking to them in the same way one would when a tzadik is alive. The idea of saying they have power sounds like avoda Zara as previously mentioned. If I am wrong would someone yeshivish rockstat keraveltheint etc pls explain it to me

    #1753708

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Grey Matter: Even if tzadikim have power, you still cannot ask them to do stuff for you. it is no different than asking a deity that has power (all the old avoda zaras had power, as we see in chazal.) BTW, this is why there is no proof from any rebbe story, even if they are 100% verified, because koach hatumah has power too. (That’s not to say thats where the Rebbe’s power came from, just that there’s no proof. But I wouldn’t be surprised of that’s how the igros stories work – with koach hatumah.)

    #1753711

    Grey matter
    Participant

    No that is my question you and keraveltheint seem to concede they may have power. That seems like it maybe heresy. As previously explained I am asking for someone to prove that: what you mentioned before (pls reread my previous post carefully) doesn’t proof that: I believe saying tzadikim have power is likely avoda Zara.

    #1753720

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Grey matter, how is believing tzadikim having power is avoda zara? We believe malachim have power. Whats the difference? (Asking malachim to help you tho is a huge halachic shayla.)

    #1753734

    keraveltheint
    Participant

    Grey Matter,
    I think the problem here is that you are assuming that Yeshivish Rockstar and I believe that tzadikim have power separate from Hashem’s power, which would be clear and utter kefira. That is not at all what we are saying. We are saying that tzadikim, like melachim, are connected to Hashem constantly, and therefore have access, (in the loshon used by Kavod Kedushas ADMO”R from Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok “are given the kochos MIN HASHOMAYIM”) to some of Hashem’s power so to speak.

    There is no power other than Hashem, there is no existence other than Hashem, there is nothing but HASHEM. EIn Od Milvado. Leis asar panuy miney v’chu…

    But not recognizing that Hashem gives access to His power leads R”L to the same error that Acher made at the end of meseches Chagigah, where he sees that Hashem gave metattron the reshus to sit while transcribing the merits of the Jewish people in the Devine Presence, and thinks that CH”V there are two reshuios.

    And Yeshivish Rockstar, it’s my personal policy that I don’t answer for things ANA”SH say or do, if I felt I had to do so, it’d be all I’d be able to spend my time doing. Both things you mention above creep me out, and make me uncomfortable also. I don’t agree with them whatsoever.

    When a chosid writes to the Rebbe as they are supposed to, they make it clear with the heading of their pidyon (ana l’orer rachamim rabim min hashomayim avur___ ben____), and in the body of their text, that they are not asking the Rebbe to give them a brocha and fulfill that brocha (something that would be impossible for the Rebbe to do, as there is no power other than Hashem) but rather that the Rebbe will give a brocha that HASHEM will fulfill IY”H. If someone is doing something other than that, they should be immediately corrected!

    As to why people ask their Rebbeim for brachos, this is something that I’m sure any chosid, of any chassidus could answer better than I. It would require writing an entire other explanation for which I have neither the time, nor the patience. One can rely on the past 300 years of Jewish history to be assured that it is a kosher and accepted practice, given one does it in the right way.

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